Master of Surges: Yelig-nar vs. Herald of Heralds

[Quantus he/him]

Ive seen so many variants on the "Fullborn Vs 5th Ideal Radiant" or other similar top-end comparisons, and I wanted to try something a little more focused and as close to an Apples-to-Apples fight as I could come up with that was still interesting :

 

Who wins: Yelig-nar with a compatible host, or the same host's identical clone that has bonded 5 Honorblades. 

Assume both have all Ten Surges, and a 1:1 fight to the death, with an Bondsmith perpendicularity open on the gem covered beaches of Aimia offering as much Stormlight as they can handle.  Name any mortal host or discount the difference at your choice, and assume both have had time to train with their powers.  

 

Annnnnd...FIGHT!

 

EDIT:  

I'm trying to get to a level field of "The Same Surges" from opposite sources, and some random equivalent to the effectively unlimited Stormlight present in the Battle of Thaylen Field without having actual plot events nearby.  So for the sake of argument lets assume that Yelig Nar does grant all Ten Radiant Surges, and since it's problematic let's just assume neither have the Bondsmith version of those surges.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Quantus

[Frustration]

Well, it would appear that Yelig-nar's host lacks the power to heal based on Amaram, however, Progression does allow healing, so I'm going to assume that a competent user could heal if they knew what they were doing.

What really tips the scale for me is the Honorblades, they simply have too much offensive power, and Yelig-nar just doesn't give a way to counter that, so the Honorblade user wins.

[therunner he/him]

I also think Herald of Heralds would take this, Surges are the same, and while Yelig-Nar has possibly crystalline armor, Herald of Heralds can cut right through that with Honorblade.

Additionally, Herald of Heralds would be unchained Bondsmith, which I don't think would be replicable by Yelig-Nar.

[alder24]

I don't know if Yelig-Nar provides Adhesion, OB epigraphs ch 95 says "all Surges", but it also says "perhaps".

Quote

"Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process."

But without a Shardblade, Yelig-Nar has little chances of fighting against Honorblades, unless he soulcast aluminum sword/cane of his own. Yelig-Nar might grant some greater skills in combat (per Coppermind), but that isn't better than a Shardblade.

Plus the Herald of Heralds is unchained (unbound? Which one is which? I forget...), even if Yelig-Nar had Adhesion, it might not be connection manipulation type, and if he can bondsmith, I highly doubt he could be at the level of unchained Bondsmith

 

40 minutes ago, Quantus said:

gem covered beaches of Aimia offering as much Stormlight

Those are quartz, not true gemhearts, can pure quartz hold Stormlight?

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if somebody used the color from a Stormlight-infused gem to create a BioChromatic entity?

Brandon Sanderson

So I just had this question actually and what we came up with was that would leave behind something that is like a cloudy quartz and is going to make it work not as well for holding Stormlight. That's our answer right now, I'm going to talk to my scientists and see what they think because draining the color from something doesn't just leave it white, or clear, it kind of ruins it, it's gray-ish, it's dun. It clouds. So I think it would ruin things for Stormlight.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Plus the Herald of Heralds is unchained (unbound? Which one is which? I forget...)

Not necesarily, he only has five honorblades, if he has the Windrunner and Stoneward blades instead he wouldn't be a Bondsmith at all.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Ive seen so many variants on the "Fullborn Vs 5th Ideal Radiant" or other similar top-end comparisons, and I wanted to try something a little more focused and as close to an Apples-to-Apples fight as I could come up with that was still interesting :

 

Who wins: Yelig-nar with a compatible host, or the same host's identical clone that has bonded 5 Honorblades. 

Assume both have all Ten Surges, and a 1:1 fight to the death, with an Bondsmith perpendicularity open on the gem covered beaches of Aimia offering as much Stormlight as they can handle.  Name any mortal host or discount the difference at your choice, and assume both have had time to train with their powers.  

 

Annnnnd...FIGHT!

Yelig-nar has the vulnerability to its Gemstone being broken, and as we saw with Amaram, that's a pretty big liability.

Additionally, Yelig-nar's host doesn't naturally have any Shards to fight with, putting another pretty big disadvantage on their side.

We also haven't seen Yelig-nar exhibit the Surge of Adhesion, and since the Fused seem to think only Honor has it, I find it doubtful that one of the Unmade happens to have it at their disposal.

If both sides have equal Investiture and equal training/skill, I'd have to say that the Herald of Hearalds has the battle in the bag.

[Quantus he/him]

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't know if Yelig-Nar provides Adhesion, OB epigraphs ch 95 says "all Surges", but it also says "perhaps".

But without a Shardblade, Yelig-Nar has little chances of fighting against Honorblades, unless he soulcast aluminum sword/cane of his own. Yelig-Nar might grant some greater skills in combat (per Coppermind), but that isn't better than a Shardblade.

Plus the Herald of Heralds is unchained (unbound? Which one is which? I forget...), even if Yelig-Nar had Adhesion, it might not be connection manipulation type, and if he can bondsmith, I highly doubt he could be at the level of unchained Bondsmith

 

Those are quartz, not true gemhearts, can pure quartz hold Stormlight?

  Hide contents

Questioner

What would happen if somebody used the color from a Stormlight-infused gem to create a BioChromatic entity?

Brandon Sanderson

So I just had this question actually and what we came up with was that would leave behind something that is like a cloudy quartz and is going to make it work not as well for holding Stormlight. That's our answer right now, I'm going to talk to my scientists and see what they think because draining the color from something doesn't just leave it white, or clear, it kind of ruins it, it's gray-ish, it's dun. It clouds. So I think it would ruin things for Stormlight.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

I was trying to get to a level field of "The Same Surges" from opposite sources, and some random equivalent to the effectively unlimited Stormlight present in the Battle of Thaylen Field without having actual plot events nearby.  So for the sake of argument lets assume that Yelig Nar does grant all Ten Radiant Surges, and since it's problematic let's just assume neither have the Bondsmith version of those surges.

The way I see it, The surges arent likely to be the deciding factor.  The Honorblader would have the advantage in offense, with the ability to wield (and even throw) up to five shardblades.  Yelig-Nar seems to grant Plate-like physical enhancement, and some amount of carapace, though I dont recall if it was Invested enough to block a Shardblade.  Both can Soulcast Aluminum for a physically weak counter to the other, but it'll be a soft metal.  

If the Gem Carapace offers comparable defense to Plate and/or an equivalent to Stormlight healing, that might be enough advantage to take the Honorblader in a 1:1 fight.  The honorblader cannot heal as well as a Radiant (per WOB) and is otherwise unprotected. But they arent bloated out with Gem growths, so they are likely to take the lead in mobility.  That could move the fight to a mid- to Long range contest, which would counteract a lot of the advantage of the shardblades that require close combat.  

 

 

[Frustration]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The honorblader cannot heal as well as a Radiant (per WOB)

They have progression, so they would be just as good.

[Quantus he/him]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They have progression, so they would be just as good.

Good point. It's a little weaker than radiant healing, but for these purposes should be perfectly effective (and likely comparable to the also weaker Honorblade healing).  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I was trying to get to a level field of "The Same Surges" from opposite sources, and some random equivalent to the effectively unlimited Stormlight present in the Battle of Thaylen Field without having actual plot events nearby.  So for the sake of argument lets assume that Yelig Nar does grant all Ten Radiant Surges, and since it's problematic let's just assume neither have the Bondsmith version of those surges.

The way I see it, The surges arent likely to be the deciding factor.  The Honorblader would have the advantage in offense, with the ability to wield (and even throw) up to five shardblades.  Yelig-Nar seems to grant Plate-like physical enhancement, and some amount of carapace, though I dont recall if it was Invested enough to block a Shardblade.  Both can Soulcast Aluminum for a physically weak counter to the other, but it'll be a soft metal.  

If the Gem Carapace offers comparable defense to Plate and/or an equivalent to Stormlight healing, that might be enough advantage to take the Honorblader in a 1:1 fight.  The honorblader cannot heal as well as a Radiant (per WOB) and is otherwise unprotected. But they arent bloated out with Gem growths, so they are likely to take the lead in mobility.  That could move the fight to a mid- to Long range contest, which would counteract a lot of the advantage of the shardblades that require close combat.  

I'm not sure if Yelig-Nar gives the same surges as Radiants have, I think it's more what Fused have, and this is limited in use. But Assuming they are the same surges, and both can use it in the same way, there is still an issue with Honorblades. It's possible that Yelig-Nar's crystal body is invested, and could act like a Shardplate. But Honorblade gives range advantage in close combat, Yelig-Nar has to get closer into hand to hand combat, while Herald of Heralds (too long to write, I'm lazy, changing the name to HighHerald) has like 2m of advantage over Yelig-Nar. Which is very significant. Shardblade/Honorblade cut to the spine/brain is the best way to kill them, otherwise they can heal everything else. HighHerald can do it, while Yelig-Nar can't, everything that Yelig-Nar does can be healed by HighHerald, which gives the advantage to HighHerald.

[Quantus he/him]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm not sure if Yelig-Nar gives the same surges as Radiants have, I think it's more what Fused have, and this is limited in use. But Assuming they are the same surges, and both can use it in the same way, there is still an issue with Honorblades. It's possible that Yelig-Nar's crystal body is invested, and could act like a Shardplate. But Honorblade gives range advantage in close combat, Yelig-Nar has to get closer into hand to hand combat, while Herald of Heralds (too long to write, I'm lazy, changing the name to HighHerald) has like 2m of advantage over Yelig-Nar. Which is very significant. Shardblade/Honorblade cut to the spine/brain is the best way to kill them, otherwise they can heal everything else. HighHerald can do it, while Yelig-Nar can't, everything that Yelig-Nar does can be healed by HighHerald, which gives the advantage to HighHerald.

Hmm, excellent points.  The Honorblades are uniformly shorter than the average Shardblade, closer to normal length (by rosharan standards), and they dont change shape.  This limits the advantage but not by munch unless it's gem-mutations are also resistant to the shardblade cuts.  But that is still a superior Attack that Regrowth alone cant counter, and Yelig-Nar can't replicate.  

Amaram had shardblades to level things, but for this conversation it's just what the UnMade offers the host.  What would Yelig-Nar's primary attack mode be, do you think? We saw some fun Division capabilities, and I still think Stormform Lighting is a Division effect that could be within reach.  Distance Soulcasting could be possible if that's not an elsecaller  resonance and if it can be done to somebody holding Stormlight.  Aluminum Shrapnel is one of the harder things for any Cosmere healing to overcome since it needs to be surgically removed first, maybe soulcast plus gravitation attacks?  Almost any fight is likely to eventually move to the air, so a lot of mobility and/or environmental tactics are out.   

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Amaram had shardblades to level things, but for this conversation it's just what the UnMade offers the host.  What would Yelig-Nar's primary attack mode be, do you think? We saw some fun Division capabilities, and I still think Stormform Lighting is a Division effect that could be within reach.  Distance Soulcasting could be possible if that's not an elsecaller  resonance and if it can be done to somebody holding Stormlight.  Aluminum Shrapnel is one of the harder things for any Cosmere healing to overcome since it needs to be surgically removed first, maybe soulcast plus gravitation attacks?  Almost any fight is likely to eventually move to the air, so a lot of mobility and/or environmental tactics are out.   

It's hard to say. Surges are for sure the main weapon of Yelig-Nar, but which one? 

Personally, I don't like the idea of Soulcasting at the distance, it works in books, yes, Jasnah did it in WoK, but in scenarios like this, it just turns the whole competition into "who can soulcast aluminum box around their opponent first", which is boring, stupid and lame. That's why I mostly think about soulcasting based on touch, as it just makes it more fun.

Yelig-Nar can soulcast projectails from the air and lash them into HighHerald. That's one option. He can use Tension and Cohesion to turn the ground under HighHerald into liquid and than solid, trapping him in it. Soulcasting the ground/air into oil or flame. He can use Division on touch and burn HighHerald. Create Illusions to disorient HighHerald and strike by surprise. 

But here is the problem. HighHerald can do all of that too, and can counter that as well. Yelig-Nar turning the ground into liquid? HighHerald just needs to use Tension to force the ground around himself to remain solid. Yelig-Nar launching projectiles? HighHerald just Reverse Lash them into the ground safely or Soulcast the air in front of him into the stone. Division? HighHerald can do that too. Illusions? HighHerald can look into CR to know where Yelig-Nar is, and do Illusions as well. Everything that Yelig-Nar does, HighHerald can do too. But HighHerald can use Honorblades, which Yelig-Nar doesn't have. If Yelig-Nar's crystal body works like a Shardplate, it can be cracked and broken if it gets hit enough times. And when the crystal gets broken, it will damage Yelig-Nar or open him to Shardblade cut directly into his body (however it works). On the other hand, every damage that Yelig-Nar does, can be healed by HighHerald. 

This means that use of Surges cancels out, as they're equal, and the only thing that matters is the Shardplate-like crystal body of Yelig-Nar, and Honorblades of HighHerald. The only way for Yelig-Nar to win is to inflict so much damage to HighHerald in such a short period of time, that he can't heal any longer, but because Yelig-Nar's main offense is fully canceled out by HighHerald, he can't do it. He has no real advantage over HighHerald to create such scenario and inflict such damage to him. Which means that the offensive ability of HighHerald gives him a real advantage, which would win this fight. Shardplate-like crystal body of Yelig-Nar will only slow down his demise, but ultimately, HighHerald will win.

[Quantus he/him]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's hard to say. Surges are for sure the main weapon of Yelig-Nar, but which one? 

Personally, I don't like the idea of Soulcasting at the distance, it works in books, yes, Jasnah did it in WoK, but in scenarios like this, it just turns the whole competition into "who can soulcast aluminum box around their opponent first", which is boring, stupid and lame. That's why I mostly think about soulcasting based on touch, as it just makes it more fun.

Yelig-Nar can soulcast projectails from the air and lash them into HighHerald. That's one option. He can use Tension and Cohesion to turn the ground under HighHerald into liquid and than solid, trapping him in it. Soulcasting the ground/air into oil or flame. He can use Division on touch and burn HighHerald. Create Illusions to disorient HighHerald and strike by surprise. 

But here is the problem. HighHerald can do all of that too, and can counter that as well. Yelig-Nar turning the ground into liquid? HighHerald just needs to use Tension to force the ground around himself to remain solid. Yelig-Nar launching projectiles? HighHerald just Reverse Lash them into the ground safely or Soulcast the air in front of him into the stone. Division? HighHerald can do that too. Illusions? HighHerald can look into CR to know where Yelig-Nar is, and do Illusions as well. Everything that Yelig-Nar does, HighHerald can do too. But HighHerald can use Honorblades, which Yelig-Nar doesn't have. If Yelig-Nar's crystal body works like a Shardplate, it can be cracked and broken if it gets hit enough times. And when the crystal gets broken, it will damage Yelig-Nar or open him to Shardblade cut directly into his body (however it works). On the other hand, every damage that Yelig-Nar does, can be healed by HighHerald. 

This means that use of Surges cancels out, as they're equal, and the only thing that matters is the Shardplate-like crystal body of Yelig-Nar, and Honorblades of HighHerald. The only way for Yelig-Nar to win is to inflict so much damage to HighHerald in such a short period of time, that he can't heal any longer, but because Yelig-Nar's main offense is fully canceled out by HighHerald, he can't do it. He has no real advantage over HighHerald to create such scenario and inflict such damage to him. Which means that the offensive ability of HighHerald gives him a real advantage, which would win this fight. Shardplate-like crystal body of Yelig-Nar will only slow down his demise, but ultimately, HighHerald will win.

I have to agree.  Even with the most optimistic capabilities of Yelig-Nar, that his gem carapace is shardbalde resistant and also considered Himself enough to  be Healed by ReGrowth, he'd still only be able to reach for a stalemate while hoping for a lucky shot.  And give him even a dead shardblade and it basically becomes a coin-flip.  

[Argenti he/him]

Unless Yelig-Nar grants the fused variety of surges (which I think it does since they gain a gem heart) (unfortunately we don't know them all.) They're basically the same with a slight edge to HH with the shardblade.

[cometaryorbit]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:27 PM, Frustration said:

Well, it would appear that Yelig-nar's host lacks the power to heal based on Amaram, however, Progression does allow healing, so I'm going98h  to assume that a competent user could heal if they knew what they were doing.

What really tips the scale for me is the Honorblades, they simply have too much offensive power, and Yelig-nar just doesn't give a way to counter that, so the Honorblade user wins.

Yeah, I was just recently wondering about the vulnerability Amaram showed. His healing doesn't even seem Fused level, much less Radiant level.

Amaram is really quite unimpressive for a guy with all 10 (or at least 9) Surges and dual Shardblades.

On 4/25/2023 at 10:10 AM, Frustration said:

They have progression, so they would be just as good.

I don't think so. If Progression gave them healing equal to high Ideal Radiants, the two Heralds with it would have been literally impossible to kill in the Desolations until Stormlight drain fabrials were invented (and maybe even then depending on how fast they can draw from Honor vs how fast the fabrials drain).

[Frustration]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think so. If Progression gave them healing equal to high Ideal Radiants, the two Heralds with it would have been literally impossible to kill in the Desolations until Stormlight drain fabrials were invented (and maybe even then depending on how fast they can draw from Honor vs how fast the fabrials drain).

I mean Yelig-nar killed every man of letters in Kholinar in one attack, and given the importance and size of the city that was probably several thousand, with multiple surgebinders present.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I mean Yelig-nar killed every man of letters in Kholinar in one attack, and given the importance and size of the city that was probably several thousand, with multiple surgebinders present.

Illumination? He could just put an illusion on himself, sneaked into the palace, killed all scribes and ran away before all those Radiants shattered him into Damnation.

But he did nearly kill Kaladin, but I doubt he would stand a chance against him without 2 shardblades and multiple Fused harrasing Kaladin and Dalinar whom Kaladin was protecting. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Illumination? He could just put an illusion on himself, sneaked into the palace, killed all scribes and ran away before all those Radiants shattered him into Damnation.

I mean, that's possible, but Nohadon said that he "Broke in" which to me at least implies that it was a little more violent than just sneaking in, specifically to kill scribes.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I mean, that's possible, but Nohadon said that he "Broke in" which to me at least implies that it was a little more violent than just sneaking in, specifically to kill scribes.

If a robber enters your house quietly in the night, steals your belongings and exits without you noticing, wouldn't you call it "breaking in"?

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

If a robber enters your house quietly in the night, steals your belongings and exits without you noticing, wouldn't you call it "breaking in"?

I would, but if someone told me that their house was broken into and their kids were murdered, I'd imagine someone smashing through the window and opening fire.

Also why would an Unmade go out of it's way to kill scribes? That feels wierd to me, it makes more sense that they were just collateral damage.

[alder24]

Just now, Frustration said:

I would, but if someone told me that their house was broken into and their kids were murdered, I'd imagine someone smashing through the window and opening fire.

In this case I imagine that he quietly entered the house and cut the throats of their kids. Different cultures I guess.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Also why would an Unmade go out of it's way to kill scribes? That feels wierd to me, it makes more sense that they were just collateral damage.

That's weird for me too. That makes no sense at all. But if they were just collateral damage Nohodon would say "he killed my Knight/guards and some of my scribes", not that he killed all scribes and only them. They were the main objective of Yelig-Nar. And that makes sense if they were the only target he could kill without getting killed in return by Radiants. The way Amaram fought with 2 Shardblades gives me little hope that Yelig-Nar would be able to face several Radiants without any Shardblade and come on top of them.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That's weird for me too. That makes no sense at all. But if they were just collateral damage Nohodon would say "he killed my Knight/guards and some of my scribes", not that he killed all scribes and only them. They were the main objective of Yelig-Nar. And that makes sense if they were the only target he could kill without getting killed in return by Radiants.

I mean, they were talking about scribes first and Nohadon mentioned how they were killed, so they might not have been.

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The way Amaram fought with 2 Shardblades gives me little hope that Yelig-Nar would be able to face several Radiants without any Shardblade and come on top of them.

Yeah and let's also not forget all the wierd stuff going on with Aesudan and time dialation in Kholinar palace, Yelig-nar can do some wierd stuff we haven't seen yet.

[Nogo]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Also why would an Unmade go out of it's way to kill scribes? That feels wierd to me, it makes more sense that they were just collateral damage.

 

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

That's weird for me too. That makes no sense at all. But if they were just collateral damage Nohodon would say "he killed my Knight/guards and some of my scribes", not that he killed all scribes and only them. They were the main objective of Yelig-Nar. And that makes sense if they were the only target he could kill without getting killed in return by 

I think because part of the objective of the Desolations was to set human society back as far as they can.  Kill all the educated people and that really screws you over for the rebuild. 

"Hey man, do you know how to make that wagon wheel thing."  

"Naw dude, all the wheel makers were killed in the Desolation."

"Well, I have to transport this stuff over to Kholinar so it looks like it's time for me to reinvent the wheel."

It's not like the fused aren't torturing the bejesus out of the heralds on Braise to get back fastest before the humans can rebuild.

Oh yeah, the topic... Honorblade dude wins.  Except that he can only kill the host not actually Yelig-nar... so in the end I'd just to have to call it a draw.   And maybe Yelig-nar's host in Nohadan's time was a Ninja-Assassin who then had the added Yelig-nar super-bonus which enabled him/her/it to infiltrate the palace and set education back a decade or six.