Argenti he/him Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 On 4/15/2023 at 11:16 AM, therunner said: No, godmetals are the most dense form of Investiture. Gas < liquid < solid. Nope! Liquid>Gas>Solid. Quote Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Also Purified dor is a liquid so that probably means that liquid is it's most dense. Don't ask how this works it just does!
Heilven he/him Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Argenti said: Nope! Liquid>Gas>Solid. Quote I knew I saw this somewhere. My point stands then. Spren are far too large to fit into that small space without overflowing and creating an invested object
Argenti he/him Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 I'm pretty sure I read it elsewhere, too, probably somewhere in the books.
alder24 Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Argenti said: Nope! Liquid>Gas>Solid. Also Purified dor is a liquid so that probably means that liquid is it's most dense. Don't ask how this works it just does! No, the WoB isn't about investiture density, but about potency, about what can this form of investiture do. Solid form being less potent doesn't mean it's less dense, it means it can't do as many things as other forms. As it's explained in the WoB, solid form can do only one, very specific thing. It makes no sense for a solid bar of metal to be the least dense state of investiture. Investiture is like energy, and matter IS energy. In what state is matter the densest? In the solid state. The same goes with investiture. Spoiler Blaze1616 The Dor: Is it gaseous Investiture or is it something else completely? Brandon Sanderson Oh that's a great question. People have not been asking enough about the Dor. Blaze1616 And if it is gaseous—or not gaseous—is it plasma? Brandon Sanderson *Long pause* You got it. *said definitively* It's super sup-- not plasm-- yeah, it's super-dense to the point that's it's liquefied and dense-- does that make sense? So it's plasma, basically. It's its own weird thing, so yeah. What you can write is that it's its own weird thing that's kind of plasma-like. Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015) Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 1
Argenti he/him Posted April 16, 2023 Posted April 16, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Investiture is like energy, and matter IS energy. In what state is matter the densest? In the solid state. The same goes with investiture. I really could have sworn that somewhere it's said liquid is the most dense. Guess I'm mistaken!
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted April 17, 2023 Author Posted April 17, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No, the WoB isn't about investiture density, but about potency, about what can this form of investiture do. Solid form being less potent doesn't mean it's less dense, it means it can't do as many things as other forms. As it's explained in the WoB, solid form can do only one, very specific thing. It makes no sense for a solid bar of metal to be the least dense state of investiture. Investiture is like energy, and matter IS energy. In what state is matter the densest? In the solid state. The same goes with investiture. Reveal hidden contents Blaze1616 The Dor: Is it gaseous Investiture or is it something else completely? Brandon Sanderson Oh that's a great question. People have not been asking enough about the Dor. Blaze1616 And if it is gaseous—or not gaseous—is it plasma? Brandon Sanderson *Long pause* You got it. *said definitively* It's super sup-- not plasm-- yeah, it's super-dense to the point that's it's liquefied and dense-- does that make sense? So it's plasma, basically. It's its own weird thing, so yeah. What you can write is that it's its own weird thing that's kind of plasma-like. Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015) Reveal hidden contents Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) I understand and believe this. It makes sense that fluid would be the best of both worlds in a way. It really highlights just how much investiture is on Roshar compared to Scadrial. I don't know if all of the mists of Scadrial and all of the chunks of God metals there plus a perpendicularity or two can possibly add up to anything near what we see on Roshar. Preservation made how many chunks of lerasium? I am sure less than a single blades worth. On Roshar you have a moving storm dumping a dead gods investiture everywhere all the time and you have that same dead gods body being used by 10 huge swords plus this ability for the spren to all manifest as far more than what a small pile of Lerasium could have done. Imagine if one mistborn were given a similar masses worth of lerasium as a single honorblade. Then let that mistborn breathe in and use the mists at their whim. Maybe I am missing something but I genuinely feel like preservation and ruin were just lesser shards from the start. It is totally possible that I could have missed a concept pointing to the shattering being largely unequal parts and 3 of the largest shards investiture wise all ended up in the same system. Edited April 17, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
therunner he/him Posted April 17, 2023 Posted April 17, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I don't know if all of the mists of Scadrial and all of the chunks of God metals there plus a perpendicularity or two can possibly add up to anything near what we see on Roshar. Mists covering the entire land of Final Empire every night vs a Storm covering several thousand km squared every ~10 days? It seems mists are at least similarly ubiquitous, just capturing them is more difficult, and to use them in Invested Arts requires possibly unusually strong Connection to Preservation. Godmetals, well there was also the Atium hoard, which was thousand years worth of Atium. (granted it was alloy) Quote Maybe I am missing something but I genuinely feel like preservation and ruin were just lesser shards from the start. Well,R+P used most likely considerable amount of power to create the entire planet, and all the ecosystem on it from scratch. That would have used up quite a bit of power (since energy is conserved in cosmere) + Preservation then had to relinquish additional portion to grant humans sentiency. Comparatively, on Roshar the Investiture that makes up spren was Investiture of H+C (and maybe a bit of O) from start, so they started with some of the Investiture already Invested on Roshar. It it just in different form, not necessarily more of it. Quote It is totally possible that I could have missed a concept pointing to the shattering being largely unequal parts and 3 of the largest shards investiture wise all ended up in the same system. Everything points to Shards being equals in power, as in, exact equals. That is why Harmony being theoretically 2x as powerful concerns them so much. Edited April 17, 2023 by therunner 3
alder24 Posted April 17, 2023 Posted April 17, 2023 10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: It really highlights just how much investiture is on Roshar compared to Scadrial. I don't know if all of the mists of Scadrial and all of the chunks of God metals there plus a perpendicularity or two can possibly add up to anything near what we see on Roshar. Did you forget that there is a peculiar Well on Scadrial that every 1024 years makes a person into a god that can MOVE THE ENTIRE PLANET or change people's genetics without a struggle? That's not regular perpendicularity. Plus a big hole full of Atium. 10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Maybe I am missing something but I genuinely feel like preservation and ruin were just lesser shards from the start. They're equal. But Preservation sacrificed his mind to trap Ruin's mind in the Well, he splintered part of Ruin's power and hid it as Atium, and he coated the entire Final Empire (or maybe even the world) in Mist. Preservation gave a lot of his power away. So I would argue that in the case of raw power sitting on the surface of the planet, Scadrial has it more than Roshar. But this power is largely inaccessible to people, so Roshar makes it easier to gain investiture. And Roshar has lots of spren. In the end both might have similar amounts of investiture running around. Spoiler Shardbound Does each Shard have the same quantity or quality of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Um, yes. They were equal proportions originally, how about that. Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015) But it's not the amount of power that Shard has that determines how powerful it is, it's the amount of power Shard's mind can access at once. Spoiler Questioner For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed? Brandon Sanderson The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that. Questioner What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity... Brandon Sanderson So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)
cometaryorbit Posted April 18, 2023 Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) On 4/14/2023 at 2:36 AM, therunner said: Basically, since we don't know exactly how many times he lashed himself, it is as consistent as Brandon wants. I don't think Plate has been made weaker Also, Plate is weird. It doesn't break like real steel plate would (it cracks then explodes, rather than denting/deforming/being punctured... it's incredibly hard and strong, but brittle rather than ductile, which isn't really metal behavior). Kaladin likely had a lot more kinetic energy than a Warform hammer blow, and the damage to Plate may not scale neatly. On 4/14/2023 at 7:29 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I personally believe that an awakener could potentially ruin enemy sources of fuel via color draining... the god kings awakening was turning everything to white. I think based on these wobs he could potentially ruin metals for all 3 metalic arts and create some huge issues for the abilities for gems to hold onto light for the long term. Metals in the Metallic Arts, probably not, in these the key to Investiture is atomic structure based. However, for gems on Roshar, color is more important than the actual atomic structure. So yeah, an Awakener can make gems useless for Soulcasting and much worse at holding Light, and unsuitable for making fabrials. I'm not sure if an already-trapped spren would be released if the gem was color drained though... the gem color seems to be important for attracting the spren? This is a cool thought, I'd never really thought about this interaction. I don't think you need 10th Heightening total color drain for this, probably regular Awakening drain to gray will mess up gemstones (except maybe smokestone?) Diamond likely isn't drainable as an Awakening color source though. On 4/15/2023 at 5:41 PM, Frustration said: That is not true. Everything has a spiritual and cognitive presence, nothing exists on just one realm. Aluminum *might* be the exception. It's unclear https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9545 17 hours ago, therunner said: Mists covering the entire land of Final Empire every night vs a Storm covering several thousand km squared every ~10 days? It seems mists are at least similarly ubiquitous, just capturing them is more difficult, and to use them in Invested Arts requires possibly unusually strong Connection to Preservation. Godmetals, well there was also the Atium hoard, which was thousand years worth of Atium. (granted it was alloy) Well,R+P used most likely considerable amount of power to create the entire planet, and all the ecosystem on it from scratch. That would have used up quite a bit of power (since energy is conserved in cosmere) + Preservation then had to relinquish additional portion to grant humans sentiency. Comparatively, on Roshar the Investiture that makes up spren was Investiture of H+C (and maybe a bit of O) from start, so they started with some of the Investiture already Invested on Roshar. It it just in different form, not necessarily more of it. Everything points to Shards being equals in power, as in, exact equals. That is why Harmony being theoretically 2x as powerful concerns them so much. Yeah, the Mists are immense power, they're just not available to the ecosystem (and people making fabrials, etc) the way Roshar's Stormlight cycle is. They only work in ways set by the Vessel (Mist-snapping / choosing Vin programmed by Leras, Mists boosting Wax because of Harmony's choosing him). Shards were equal at their origin, but some (like Preservation) have committed more power into the physical world/their creations. Edited April 18, 2023 by cometaryorbit
Frustration Posted April 18, 2023 Posted April 18, 2023 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Aluminum *might* be the exception. It's unclear https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9545 Not having a spren and not having a cognitive representation are not the same. It is technically possible to soulcast aluminum if you have enough power, so it has to have cognitive and spiritual representations. Spoiler ChickenBites Can you Soulcast aluminum into other materials? Brandon Sanderson Aluminum would strongly resist any sort of Soulcasting. Billy Todd Would that resistance be overcome? Could be overcome? Brandon Sanderson This is the question. Everything can be, right? Aluminum, in the cosmere, was created. And can be created. So, people ask me this, "Can? Cannot?" Like, with a powerful enough magnet in our world, what can you do? Like, is water magnetic? ...But, could you make water respond to a magnet? Yes! You can make anything if you really try hard enough... It's, like, this idea, that when people are like, "Can you, yes or no?" Well... yes! Would it take the power of six Shards of Adonalsium working together? Maybe! Can you? Yes, you probably can. Like, we're talking about a fantasy universe where almost anything is possible, and the impossibilities are contradictions, it's "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort of questions when you get into "can you?" Now, could you Soulcast aluminum using a reasonable amount of energy that an individual could conceivably have in a normal setting and situation? No. If that's what you're looking for. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)
cometaryorbit Posted April 18, 2023 Posted April 18, 2023 7 hours ago, Frustration said: Not having a spren and not having a cognitive representation are not the same. It is technically possible to soulcast aluminum if you have enough power, so it has to have cognitive and spiritual representations. For Rosharans, it is the same; in the sense that "everything has a spren", they're using "spren" broadly to include Cognitive aspects of objects, not just actually manifest Splinters. Oh, probably aluminum does have a very weak Cognitive/Spiritual aspect, I just don't think it's known as a fact. (And I don't think being able to Soulcast it with multiple-Shard level power proves anything, since with much less Investiture than that you can make the Three Realms one.) 1
therunner he/him Posted April 19, 2023 Posted April 19, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: For Rosharans, it is the same; in the sense that "everything has a spren", they're using "spren" broadly to include Cognitive aspects of objects, not just actually manifest Splinters. Oh, probably aluminum does have a very weak Cognitive/Spiritual aspect, I just don't think it's known as a fact. (And I don't think being able to Soulcast it with multiple-Shard level power proves anything, since with much less Investiture than that you can make the Three Realms one.) I think just the fact that you can soulcast things into Aluminum is relatively good evidence of it having Cognitive representation. Otherwise it would be basically convincing object to 'kill itself', which would be a hard sell I imagine. And heavily Invested objects mimic at least some properties of aluminum (cannot be pushed/pulled, cannot be seen with steelsight, interfere with Investiture, allow blocking Shardblades, etc.), and those still have CR and SR representation. And Aluminum is stated to resist Soulcasting (and other forms of Investiture trying to change it, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8306). If it had no CR representation than it would not resist, it would be flat out impossible to change it via Soulcasting. Edited April 19, 2023 by therunner 1
Heilven he/him Posted April 21, 2023 Posted April 21, 2023 On 4/19/2023 at 4:23 AM, therunner said: I think just the fact that you can soulcast things into Aluminum is relatively good evidence of it having Cognitive representation Can you soulcast things into aluminum? I believe you, but I've been wondering about this for a while so it would be cool to have the evidence
alder24 Posted April 21, 2023 Posted April 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Heilven said: Can you soulcast things into aluminum? I believe you, but I've been wondering about this for a while so it would be cool to have the evidence Yes, it was said in WoR ch 48, that aluminum can be produced by soulcasting.
Heilven he/him Posted April 21, 2023 Posted April 21, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: Yes, it was said in WoR ch 48, that aluminum can be produced by soulcasting That's interesting. With new discoveries on how to use aluminum in fabrials, I wonder if we might learn more about the nature of aluminum soon.
Argenti he/him Posted April 24, 2023 Posted April 24, 2023 On 4/21/2023 at 0:58 PM, Heilven said: That's interesting. With new discoveries on how to use aluminum in fabrials, I wonder if we might learn more about the nature of aluminum soon. Knowing aluminum it's effects on fabrials are probably either, A: The fabrial stops working B: The thing the spren controls vanishes (that's more leacher though)
therunner he/him Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Argenti said: Knowing aluminum it's effects on fabrials are probably either, A: The fabrial stops working B: The thing the spren controls vanishes (that's more leacher though) We know a couple of the aluminum effects in fabrial, and it seems to be neither of these. In conjoiners aluminum in the metallic casing is used to isolate planes of movement, so e.g. only horizontal movement is transferred. (This is used in Rysn's 'wheelchair') Reversers work along pretty much the same principle as conjoiners, so it would work the same way there. For attractors/repulsors, aluminum would serve to shield certain direction from effect, so instead of omni-directional push/pull you can get directed effect (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16021) For others types, we will have to wait and see for back-half of SA I expect. 1
Argenti he/him Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 3 hours ago, therunner said: We know a couple of the aluminum effects in fabrial, and it seems to be neither of these. In conjoiners aluminum in the metallic casing is used to isolate planes of movement, so e.g. only horizontal movement is transferred. (This is used in Rysn's 'wheelchair') Reversers work along pretty much the same principle as conjoiners, so it would work the same way there. For attractors/repulsors, aluminum would serve to shield certain direction from effect, so instead of omni-directional push/pull you can get directed effect (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16021) For others types, we will have to wait and see for back-half of SA I expect. I was talking about using it as as the frame (decideing which kind of fabrial it is), rather than just it's uses in general.
therunner he/him Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Argenti said: I was talking about using it as as the frame (decideing which kind of fabrial it is), rather than just it's uses in general. It is being used in the frame, at least in the conjoiner/reverser case. It is possible that just aluminum cage alone would simply not do anything, being inert to Investiture.
Argenti he/him Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 3 hours ago, therunner said: It is being used in the frame, at least in the conjoiner/reverser case. I meant specifically the wire frame "These fabrial-gems are encased in a metal wire frame, which determines the effect of the fabrial, along with the type of spren." (Coppermind) 3 hours ago, therunner said: It is possible that just aluminum cage alone would simply not do anything, being inert to Investiture. Yes, that's what I said earlier, it would just act as a hunk of aluminum. The only reason I think it might do something is The Metallic Arts using aluminum and the fabrials following their patterns.
Frustration Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 27 minutes ago, Argenti said: I meant specifically the wire frame "These fabrial-gems are encased in a metal wire frame, which determines the effect of the fabrial, along with the type of spren." (Coppermind) That's what he is talking about. Aluminum is used as frome wires in conjoiners and Reverseers.
Argenti he/him Posted April 25, 2023 Posted April 25, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Frustration said: That's what he is talking about. Aluminum is used as frome wires in conjoiners and Reverseers. Are they? Ops, it's been a while since I've read them. I always thought it was just a sheet of aluminum was added in Edited April 25, 2023 by Argenti
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