Did TLR use F-Atium spikes for Inquistors?

[Mistchemist16]

We know that Marsh survived to Era 2 by Atium Compoumding. WoB also tells us that Marsh was not given his spike by Ruin, but instead stole it from dead Inquistors

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

As far as I can tell, there are two usages for F-Atium: as a disguise or to prolong youth, particularly with Compounding. Yet, neither seems to make sense for Ruin. He doesn’t really need disguises. And if he wanted an Inquistor to be immortal, why not his top pawn? Ruin was willing to give him duralumin despite wasting a Mistborn. It doesn’t add up

 Which got me thinking. What if those spikes were given by TLR instead? We have reason to believe that some Inquistors have extended lifespans. If Inquistors made themselves old during the rest periods, they could probably extend their lives a fair bit
 

Chaos (paraphrased)

How long is the lifespan of an Inquisitor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It depends on the powers they're given. Some burn up quickly, and others are extended. In general though they do tend to have slightly longer lives. Since Marsh has the missing bag of atium he's going to be around for a while.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

Now, the slightly longer lives part could be explained by them being extra Invested from spikes. In fact, I think that would explain the “generally” part quite well. But the WoN also says others are extended, as if they got a bigger boost. If the Inquistors managed to store enough youth during their rest periods, as the gold spike ones do, they could probably go a bit longer with the extra youth. More importantly, it helps people believe the Inquistors are immortal, since they’ll never seem old even as the same ones serve.

Now, the big problem with this is potential Compounding. We can safely assume most, if not all, Inquistors are either base Mistborn or have spikes for A-Atium. So TLR would be risking them learning to Compound on their own, which doesn’t track well. But having F-Atium doesn’t necessarily require the Inquistors to Compound. They could just become old while resting and then young out in the world. 
 

Ultimately, the question is this: why would TLR or Ruin give random Inquistors F-Atium spikes? It has to be one of the two and I really can’t understand why Ruin didn’t give one to Marsh when he had invested so much. But if any of you have a plausible explanation for either theory, I’d love to hear it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

As far as I can tell, there are two usages for F-Atium: as a disguise or to prolong youth, particularly with Compounding. Yet, neither seems to make sense for Ruin. He doesn’t really need disguises. And if he wanted an Inquistor to be immortal, why not his top pawn? Ruin was willing to give him duralumin despite wasting a Mistborn. It doesn’t add up

Why not? As Brandon said, he didn't explain why Inquisitors would get that spike. There is a way to reverse compounding, to fuel Allomancy with Feruchemy, and that might be the reason why Ruin gave inquisitors F-Atium spike.

Spoiler

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

I asked him about what the board refers to as "reverse" compounding - i.e., using Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy, rather than the other way around. I wanted to make sure that it was really a thing that exists.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that it was.

Kaymyth (paraphrased)

Is this what the Southern Scadrians have been doing?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar, but not exactly the same.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Why not give that spike to Marsh? Well, he is part of Kel's crew, he has connections to Vin and others, it would be extra gruesome to use him in contact with her and Elend just to scare them more, while other Inquisitors had different tasks to perform. Maybe after Scadrial had fallen, Ruin would send them into Cosmere as his agents. 

 

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Which got me thinking. What if those spikes were given by TLR instead? We have reason to believe that some Inquistors have extended lifespans. If Inquistors made themselves old during the rest periods, they could probably extend their lives a fair bit

The last thing Rashek would want to do is for inquisitors to figure out compounding and the key to Rashek's power. He never gave them spikes with F-pewter or F-steel even though they would be very beneficial, he only gave them F-gold to heal, making sure they will never figure out compounding as long as he lives. Inquisitors would be the first to turn against him under Ruin's control when the Well would be full again (like we saw with Marsh). If they knew where Rashek's power came from, they would have a chance to rip his metalminds before he would Ascend again. There is no way Rashek would ever do something that threatening when he can just create new Inquisitors instead. 

Inquisitors lived longer because they were more invested than normal humans. Spikes invest them. How much longer likely has something to do with how strong their mind and soul is and how much damage they can withstand. Without Atium compounding you can't extend your life with F-Atium, especially with F-Atium granted by hemalurgy - you get older for an hour, you get younger for 50 minutes, but your lifespan doesn't change without compounding.

Spoiler

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)

When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner

The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

9 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

More importantly, it helps people believe the Inquistors are immortal, since they’ll never seem old even as the same ones serve.

Don't forget, Inquisitors aren't humans anymore, they're hemalurgic constructs, rules might be a bit different for them, and aging isn't as visible as normally.

 

[Mistchemist16]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Why not give that spike to Marsh? Well, he is part of Kel's crew, he has connections to Vin and others, it would be extra gruesome to use him in contact with her and Elend just to scare them more, while other Inquisitors had different tasks to perform. Maybe after Scadrial had fallen, Ruin would send them into Cosmere as his agents. 

It depends on what the job is. If reverse Compounding is simply to extend the Atium shadows, no reason to prevent Marsh from having that. Ruin wasn’t really worried about Marsh putting up meaningful resistance.
 

That being said, there is one other benefit to reverse Compounding Atium. Seeing the Spiritual Realm. Maybe Ruin didn’t trust Marsh enough to see that, even tightly bound, and gave the power to more malicious Inquistors. But I think it has to be something like that. If it’s about extending the combat use of Atium, it really makes no sense to give the spikes to lesser Inquistors and not Marsh.

[Treamayne]

On 4/9/2023 at 9:06 PM, Mistchemist16 said:

We know that Marsh survived to Era 2 by Atium Compoumding. WoB also tells us that Marsh was not given his spike by Ruin, but instead stole it from dead Inquistors

Quote

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

As far as I can tell, there are two usages for F-Atium: as a disguise or to prolong youth, particularly with Compounding. Yet, neither seems to make sense for Ruin. He doesn’t really need disguises. And if he wanted an Inquistor to be immortal, why not his top pawn? It doesn’t add up

 Which got me thinking. What if those spikes were given by TLR instead?

False Dichotomy. The F-Atium spike does not need to have come from Ruin or TLR (and most likely came from neither). Don't forget, most inquisitors spent all of WoA in the Terris Lands (while Marsh went to Seran, then holed up in Kredik Shaw) killing the Synod and harvesting themselves more Feruchemical abilities. This was before Ruin was released, but after TLR was killed. They gave themselves more Feruchemy.

Quote

Ruin was willing to give him duralumin despite wasting a Mistborn.

What makes you think that? The Ministry was fully aware of Augurs, Seers, and Gnats (Aluminum and Duralumin) - plenty of Obligator Gnats from which to harvest A-Duralumin.

Quote

Now, the slightly longer lives part could be explained by them being extra Invested from spikes.

The slightly longer lives are probably due to F-Gold. Even if healing doesn't extend the lifespan significantly on its own, healing means that, unless you die by violence before you can heal, you will die of old age which is likely significantly longer than most Scadrians live, since Skaa tend to die early and nobles probably die to disease long before they would succumb to simple age. 100+ at that tech level must seem enormous if you can heal the things that might have killed a normal person at 70, 80, or 90. . .

Quote

I really can’t understand why Ruin didn’t give one to Marsh when he had invested so much.

That's easy to answer. In Fadrex Ruin even states that the planet has "weeks, but not months" before he destroys it. Why would Ruin give any "tool" an expanded lifespan when the whole planet will be gone soon*?

• Spoiler

  Yes, I know the theory that he would keep some Inquisitor servants for moving on to the next system - I don't buy that because Scadrial isn't just a planet, it's a system and he has to de-invest himself from the entire system to leave. Keeping Inquisitor servants cannot accomplish that - it's the whole reason Odium never invested anywhere until he was trapped and had no choice.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity / SPAG

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

False Dichotomy. The F-Atium spike does not need to have come from Ruin or TLR (and most likely came from neither). Don't forget, most inquisitors spent all of WoA in the Terris Lands (while Marsh went to Seran, then holed up in Kredik Shaw) killing the Synod and harvesting themselves more Feruchemical abilities. This was before Ruin was released, but after TLR was killed. They gave themselves more Feruchemy.

While yes, during the events of WoA they could act on their own, keep in mind that Ruin was still talking to them and influencing their emotions, so all their actions were still driven by Ruin, which was clearly seen when Marsh attacked Sazed. Kel in SH, when trapped in the Well, noticed how much signals Ruin is sending to Inquisitors, and because of how many spikes they had, his influence over them would be way stronger than over Vin and Zane.

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

What makes you think that? The Ministry was fully aware of Augurs, Seers, and Gnats (Aluminum and Duralumin) - plenty of Obligator Gnats from which to harvest A-Duralumin.

Keep in mind that Obligators and Inquisitors didn't share too much knowledge between themself, while there might be many Obligators who were Mistings of those metals, Inquisitors didn't know that and couldn't find them. They knew those metals and Mistings exist, but didn't know who Mistings of those metals were, and because of the collapse of the Final Empire, they couldn't have tested it like they'd always been doing.

Spoiler

Sporkify

How did Inquisitors find Atium mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

They spike the drinks at one of the nobility's balls with trace amounts of Atium, then cause a bit disturbance. (Often, the Inquisitors themselves arriving will do it) and burn bronze and watch for brief pulses. The body will burn metals instinctively if it can, which has been shown quite often in the series. This is also how they get a lot of their secret information about who is a Misting and who isn't. It's not a perfect method, since you have to watch for Copperclouds messing things up, but it is effective once in a while.

Any time an obligator who is not a Misting joins the Ministry, he is unknowingly given a larger chunk of atium and then forced into a series of rituals that will drain him physically and get the body to react and burn the metal. This was how Yomen was discovered.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Four

Allomantic Secrets

Some people have asked me why the Lord Ruler was so careful to keep secrets about Allomancy. What would it have mattered if he let out that there were atium Mistings?

Some of the secrets offered a sizable tactical advantage. Keeping back duralumin and aluminum gave him and his Inquisitors (the only ones told about those metals, other than a few select obligators) tools that nobody knew about. Very few Inquisitors could burn duralumin (and most who did it gained the ability through the use of spikes reused from previous, dead Inquisitors—and those spikes were therefore much weaker.). However, those who did have the power could appear inordinately skilled in Allomancy, enhancing the Lord Ruler's divine reputation.

Beyond that, knowledge is power. I believe that. And I think that if you're the Lord Ruler, you want to keep a few secrets about your magic system. Mistborn are very rare. Mistings among the nobility—particularly in the early centuries—were not rare. If they'd known about atium Mistings, it could have upset the balance by creating too many superwarriors.

Plus, if there are unknown superwarriors to be had, then you want to keep them for yourself.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 15, 2010)

 

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The slightly longer lives are probably due to F-Gold.

Good point about F-gold. I often forget how healing can extend your lifetime, when there is F-Atium. Technically, there is no such thing as dying from old age, death from old age is due to (multi-)organ failure, with F-gold you can easily prolong your life by healing - you will still die eventually, but not as fast as normally.

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

• Spoiler

  Yes, I know the theory that he would keep some Inquisitor servants for moving on to the next system - I don't buy that because Scadrial isn't just a planet, it's a system and he has to de-invest himself from the entire system to leave. Keeping Inquisitor servants cannot accomplish that - it's the whole reason Odium never invested anywhere until he was trapped and had no choice.

Well, destroying Scadrial would de-invest him from this system, and Inquisitors were only a small fraction of his power, who can just leave the system without any troubles.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Marsh a worldhopper? Can he worldhop? Does he have the ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, yes, yes.

Questioner

Will we ever see him do anything on the other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. There's your card. But yes, no his Investiture would not prevent him from going offworld.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 23, 2017)

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Keep in mind that Obligators and Inquisitors didn't share too much knowledge between themself, while there might be many Obligators who were Mistings of those metals, Inquisitors didn't know that and couldn't find them.

As your quote shows, it would probably have been the Steel Inquisition that conducted the tests inthe first place. If anything, the other Cantons might not have known who among them were mistings of Gold, Aluminum, and Duralumin. Though the part about reusing old Duralumin Spikes does indicate that new Duralumin Gnat mistings were still rare, or they couldn't "harvest" them in TLR's time unless they transgressed enough to earn death anyway. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Well, destroying Scadrial would de-invest him from this system, and Inquisitors were only a small fraction of his power, who can just leave the system without any troubles.

Scadrial isn't just a planet (see the Khriss Essay) but more importantly, if he was still invested in Hemalurgy, then he was still invested in the Scadrian system where investing in the region caused that art to develop - even if the planet were removed. Is it possible he could have moved after the planet were gone? Maybe (espcially if he withdrew his Connection to the system) but it's also possible that he either would have been stuck without removing that Connection - or that removing that connection would have killed off Hemalurgic constructs.

My point was that we just don't know enough to be sure - and certainly not enough to conclude "make Atium Compounding Hemalurgic army and take them with you" (even an army of 1)

Edited April 11, 2023 by Treamayne
Quotes

[alder24]

Just now, Treamayne said:

Scadrial isn't just a planet (see the Khriss Essay) but more importantly, if he was still invested in Hemalurgy, then he was still invested in the Scadrian system where investing in the region caused that art to develop - even if the planet were removed. Is it possible he could have moved after the planet were gone? Maybe (espcially if he withdrew his Connection to the system) but it's also possible that he either would have been stuck without removing that Connection - or that removing that connection would have killed off Hemalurgic constructs.

My point was that we just don't know enough to be sure - and certainly not enough to conclude "make Atium Compounding Hemalurgic army and take them with you" (even an army of 1)

Destroying planet Scardial would return its investiture to the SR, which would de-invest him from the whole system (as they mostly both invested it by creating the planet, rest of the star system was already there). Because Hemalurgy is a Cosmere wide art, which anyone can use it, everywhere, as long as they know how to, I think Ruin could easily move on with Inquisitors, and Hemalurgy would still be a thing, as it's might became a part of Cosmere, rather than just Scadrial.

Yes, Hemalurgy came from interactions between the star system and Shards, but Ruin might have enough control over it (like Preservation switching basic metals) to tied it to the whole Cosmere, it might already be like this, as Ruin is everywhere, and he doesn't care where destruction is happening as long as it's happening.

SA slight spoilers:

Spoiler

It was told that Odium didn't want to invest too much into Roshar, so he won't get tied to it, which suggest there is a limit up to which Shards can invest a world without being bound to it, which is also supported by Autonomy, creating Avatars on multiple worlds, investing them, like she did on the Scadrial. Ruin wouldn't have to withdraw everything from Scadrial system to be able to move on.

 

[Mistchemist16]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

False Dichotomy. The F-Atium spike does not need to have come from Ruin or TLR (and most likely came from neither). Don't forget, most inquisitors spent all of WoA in the Terris Lands (while Marsh went to Seran, then holed up in Kredik Shaw) killing the Synod and harvesting themselves more Feruchemical abilities. This was before Ruin was released, but after TLR was killed. They gave themselves more Feruchemy.

True. Immortality would be rather promising, but unavailable to Marsh in WoA. Plus, the spike giving F-Atium would be made of Atium, so easy to place. By the way, did the Inquistors know what F-Atium did? They didn’t know about Compounding and it’s unlikely they learned F-Atium helped make TLR immortal. Doesn’t matter if they did. They could’ve also just thought “A-Atium is great, so F-Atium will be too”.  Which would be true as long as you could use A-Atium (which most Inquistors should be able to).

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

What makes you think that? The Ministry was fully aware of Augurs, Seers, and Gnats (Aluminum and Duralumin) - plenty of Obligator Gnats from which to harvest A-Duralumin.

•  

HoA epigraph chapter 72. Sazed talks about how Ruin was giving duralumin to Inquisitors. From the context, the entire section is about Ruin.

“Of course, this did give us a slight advantage, at the end. Ruin had a lot of trouble giving duralumin to his Inquisitors, since they'd need an Allomancer who could burn it to kill before they could use it. And, since none of the duralumin Mistings in the world knew about their power, they didn't burn it and reveal themselves to Ruin. That left most Inquisitors without the power of duralumin, save in a few important cases—such as Marsh—where they got it from a Mistborn. This was usually considered a waste, for if one killed a Mistborn with Hemalurgy, one could draw out only one of their sixteen powers and lost the rest. Ruin considered it much better to try to subvert them and gain access to all of their power.”

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The slightly longer lives are probably due to F-Gold. Even if healing doesn't extend the lifespan significantly on its own, healing means that, unless you die by violence before you can heal, you will die of old age which is likely significantly longer than most Scadrians live, since Skaa tend to die early and nobles probably die to disease long before they would succumb to simple age. 100+ at that tech level must seem enormous if you can heal the things that might have killed a normal person at 70, 80, or 90. . 

•  

Honestly, I don’t think that would necessarily have more impact than the passive bonus from being Invested by spikes. Unless Inquisitors had massive piles of gold metalminds left, they probably would get sick again quickly. I don’t think it would buy more than a few years at most. Assuming it’s even possible to heal age related diseases in any major way

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

That's easy to answer. In Fadrex Ruin even states that the planet has "weeks, but not months" before he destroys it. Why would Ruin give any "tool" an expanded lifespan when the whole planet will be gone soon*?

•   Reveal hidden contents

  Yes, I know the theory that he would keep some Inquisitor servants for moving on to the next system - I don't buy that because Scadrial isn't just a planet, it's a system and he has to de-invest himself from the entire system to leave. Keeping Inquisitor servants cannot accomplish that - it's the whole reason Odium never invested anywhere until he was trapped and had no choice.

Honestly, I’m fine with that. If your point is correct, then we know none of the F-Atium spikes came from Ruin. Which leaves either TLR or Inquistors spiking themselves as the answer. And part of why I started this theory was because it didn’t seem right that Ruin had used F-Atium

Edited April 11, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/10/2023 at 6:55 AM, alder24 said:

Inquisitors lived longer because they were more invested than normal humans. Spikes invest them. How much longer likely has something to do with how strong their mind and soul is and how much damage they can withstand.

I don't know that that would work very well.

Mistborn, for instance, are more Invested than the average Steel Inquisitor (16 full-powered powers, not less than a dozen weakened ones), yet we don't hear of them living longer than average.

Plus, each Hemalurgic spike causes further harm to the Spiritweb, which helps explain why Inquisitors would become exhausted so quickly.

Now, I bet that if you Invested some Hemalurgic spikes enough you could counteract at least some of the degradation on the Spiritweb and extend one's lifespan a good deal, though it would have to be a lot of power. After all, TLR was a very powerful Allomancer and Feruchemist, yet he still aged and died, so you'd have to have more raw power than him (perhaps he did age slower than normal- just not enough to naturally live 1,000 years?).

On 4/10/2023 at 6:55 AM, alder24 said:

Don't forget, Inquisitors aren't humans anymore, they're hemalurgic constructs, rules might be a bit different for them, and aging isn't as visible as normally.

That's how I envisioned they extended their lives slightly; they aren't human anymore, so they probably age differently from vanilla humans (plus, you know, A-pewter probably helps out a little).

Although, since some "burn out" faster, I bet that's due to having a larger number of spikes than other Inquisitors; more spikes, more wear and tear on the spiritweb, the quicker the Inquisitor deteriorates and ages.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Mistborn, for instance, are more Invested than the average Steel Inquisitor (16 full-powered powers, not less than a dozen weakened ones), yet we don't hear of them living longer than average.

Spook lived for at least 115 years. 

But the problem is, Mistborn are assassins, they live to fight, their work doesn't allow them to live that long. And they can't heal their wounds like Inquisitors can.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Spook lived for at least 115 years. 

Hold on, wait, What!?

Spook lived 115 years or longer!?

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Hold on, wait, What!?

Spook lived 115 years or longer!?

Yup, BoM ch 5

Quote

“Well, they would argue that they don’t need our government, as they have their own city administrations. Waxillium, many in the Basin feel that Elendel is trying to act as if our governor were some kind of emperor—something that was supposed to have ended when the Lord Mistborn stepped down after his century of rule.”

Spook was born in 1007 FE, Sazed Ascended in 1025 FE, Spook had 18 years when he became a Lord Mistborn and started his rule over Elendel. So he lived for at least 118 years, but we don't know when (or even if) he died.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yup, BoM ch 5

Spook was born in 1007 FE, Sazed Ascended in 1025 FE, Spook had 18 years when he became a Lord Mistborn and started his rule over Elendel. So he lived for at least 118 years, but we don't know when (or even if) he died.

Huh. Well, he did also play around with Hemalurgy at Kelsier's suggestion, so perhaps he found another way to extend his life.

However, I'm pretty sure he is dead as of TLM; Marsh mentions that only he, Sazed, and Kelsier are still around, balancing on one another like legs on a tripod.

[Mistchemist16]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Huh. Well, he did also play around with Hemalurgy at Kelsier's suggestion, so perhaps he found another way to extend his life.

However, I'm pretty sure he is dead as of TLM; Marsh mentions that only he, Sazed, and Kelsier are still around, balancing on one another like legs on a tripod.

It’s also worth noting that Spook could’ve used cadmium and duralumin for life extension. Pewter probably wouldn’t help because it doesn’t do much for age diseases. But given that he actively ruled for a century (not just lived that long), Atium is the more likely answer.

Edit: Also, Spook could be alive and doing things under Marsh’s radar. So not impossible that he’s still alive or even the serial killer in Era 3 (though I don’t believe he is)

Edited April 12, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[cometaryorbit]

Pewter Allomancy has a lot of general physical benefits; I don't think it would extend life per se, but I think it would help with the physical debilitation that comes with aging - it's not just strength like Pewter Feruchemy, it's also grace/agility, endurance, resistance to wounds, resistance to heat and cold, resistance to alcohol and other toxins, etc. So an elderly person who uses Pewter regularly is less likely to fall and much less likely to break bones, and will move at least as fluidly and have at least as much strength as a young healthy person.

Still, 118+ years is pushing it. That's record breaking even with modern medicine (record for men is 116).

Some cadmium time dilation could help, yeah. So could spiked in f-gold for compounding... yeah, it doesn't help with aging per se, but I'd imagine that compounded gold perfect health would make 120ish lifespans possible.

I don't know if he actually would have access to any atium in Era 2.

[therunner he/him]

On 12/04/2023 at 2:32 AM, Mistchemist16 said:

It’s also worth noting that Spook could’ve used cadmium and duralumin for life extension. Pewter probably wouldn’t help because it doesn’t do much for age diseases. But given that he actively ruled for a century (not just lived that long), Atium is the more likely answer.

The only Atium post-Catecedre was with Marsh, so Atium is not the answer for Spook.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Some cadmium time dilation could help, yeah. So could spiked in f-gold for compounding... yeah, it doesn't help with aging per se, but I'd imagine that compounded gold perfect health would make 120ish lifespans possible.

TLM spoilers

Spoiler

Spook would be unable to compound, as post Harmony, non-inborn Compounding is no longer possible.
Only Marsh can because of being sort-of 'grandfathered' in.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

17 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Pewter Allomancy has a lot of general physical benefits; I don't think it would extend life per se, but I think it would help with the physical debilitation that comes with aging - it's not just strength like Pewter Feruchemy, it's also grace/agility, endurance, resistance to wounds, resistance to heat and cold, resistance to alcohol and other toxins, etc. So an elderly person who uses Pewter regularly is less likely to fall and much less likely to break bones, and will move at least as fluidly and have at least as much strength as a young healthy person.

Still, 118+ years is pushing it. That's record breaking even with modern medicine (record for men is 116).

Some cadmium time dilation could help, yeah. So could spiked in f-gold for compounding... yeah, it doesn't help with aging per se, but I'd imagine that compounded gold perfect health would make 120ish lifespans possible.

I don't know if he actually would have access to any atium in Era 2.

Yeah, pewter and gold would probably let someone live a bit longer than normal, since it would help someone very elderly withstand frailty and disease, but Spook would've needed than that to live as long as we think he did.

15 hours ago, therunner said:

The only Atium post-Catecedre was with Marsh, so Atium is not the answer for Spook.

TLM spoilers

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Spook would be unable to compound, as post Harmony, non-inborn Compounding is no longer possible.
Only Marsh can because of being sort-of 'grandfathered' in.

 

I think that it's possible, likely even, that Marsh would've shared his Atium stash. Plus, Spook is also a Pre-Catecendre individual, so I think it's likely that he could still Compound via Hemalurgy.

[Mistchemist16]

48 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, pewter and gold would probably let someone live a bit longer than normal, since it would help someone very elderly withstand frailty and disease, but Spook would've needed than that to live as long as we think he did.

I’m not fully convinced. Pewter and gold might help you have some higher functioning. But it does seem like most diseases that come with aging can’t be healed.  The WoB says “age related illnesses”, but not “some illnesses” like it does for genetic diseases. That makes me think you can’t really get out of most aging symptoms. Cadmium would probably do way more to extend your life.
 

<snip>

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

48 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that it's possible, likely even, that Marsh would've shared his Atium stash. Plus, Spook is also a Pre-Catecendre individual, so I think it's likely that he could still Compound via Hemalurgy.

I believe that anyone could’ve used Marsh’s spike because that spike itself was made with Era 1 rules. If Spook is using Atium Compounding, then we should assume two conditions are true.

1. Spook acquired Atium, most likely from Marsh

2. Spook has an F-Atium spike manufactured in Era 1, most likely stolen from a Inquistor like Marsh did. This isn’t impossible, The WoB specifically said Inquistors. If Marsh’s spike were unique, Brandon could’ve said “an Inquistor”. But it’s hard to tell how many had F-Atium, since we don’t know why they’re were used.
 

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

If these conditions aren’t fulfilled, then the best explanation for Spook’s longevity is pewter and cadmium. Which implies he’s dead. However, Spook could be alive through other means, such as becoming a Cognitive shadow. Regardless, I’m curious to know how long cadmium could extend your life. It does burn way slower than bendalloy and Spook could get even more mileage with duralumin.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Trusk'our he/him]

47 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I’m not fully convinced. Pewter and gold might help you have some higher functioning. But it does seem like most diseases that come with aging can’t be healed.  The WoB says “age related illnesses”, but not “some illnesses” like it does for genetic diseases. That makes me think you can’t really get out of most aging symptoms. Cadmium would probably do way more to extend your life.
 

<snip>

Shagomir

As a Bloodmaker ages, what keeps them from healing the damage and carrying on as a very old, but very healthy person? Do they come to a point where they can't store enough health to stave off the aches, pains, diseases, and other things that come with old age?

This makes sense for traditional Feruchemy as it is end-neutral, so storing health becomes a zero sum game - eventually, you're going to get sick and you're not going to be able to overcome it with your natural healing ability no matter how much you manipulate it with a goldmind.

...Unless you've got a supply of Identity-less goldminds lying around. Would a Bloodmaker with a sufficient source of Identity-less goldminds (or the ability to compound, thus bypassing the end-neutral part of Feruchemy) eventually just die from being too old?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, yes. They can heal their body to match their spiritual ideal, but some things (like some genetic diseases, and age-related illnesses) are seen as part of the ideal. Depends on several factors.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 29, 2016)

I think that pewter would probably help more than F-gold since it's unnaturally expanding your body's ability to deal with stress, including disease. But yeah, I think you're right on the part about gold; age-related illnesses probably wouldn't be able to be cured through it.

50 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I believe that anyone could’ve used Marsh’s spike because that spike itself was made with Era 1 rules. If Spook is using Atium Compounding, then we should assume two conditions are true.

1. Spook acquired Atium, most likely from Marsh

2. Spook has an F-Atium spike manufactured in Era 1, most likely stolen from a Inquistor like Marsh did. This isn’t impossible, The WoB specifically said Inquistors. If Marsh’s spike were unique, Brandon could’ve said “an Inquistor”. But it’s hard to tell how many had F-Atium, since we don’t know why they’re were used.
 

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

If these conditions aren’t fulfilled, then the best explanation for Spook’s longevity is pewter and cadmium. Which implies he’s dead. However, Spook could be alive through other means, such as becoming a Cognitive shadow. Regardless, I’m curious to know how long cadmium could extend your life. It does burn way slower than bendalloy and Spook could get even more mileage with duralumin.

Ooooh. I hadn't considered that spikes made pre-Catacendre would work at full capacity.

I figured it was the people who would need it, but that would make a lot of sense since it would "remember" Ruin's Intent at the time.

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I believe that anyone could’ve used Marsh’s spike because that spike itself was made with Era 1 rules. If Spook is using Atium Compounding, then we should assume two conditions are true.

I don't think that would be the case.
Ars Arcanum talks about Ruin pushing more on fabric of fabrial, and pushing souls beyond what they could handle.

So I see it that Hemalurgic constructs and people spiked prior to Catecedre would retain the 'empowered' version of Hemalurgy, but anyone spiked after, even with old spike, would not get those benefits since Ruin is no longer present to push on their soul.

[Mistchemist16]

8 hours ago, therunner said:

I don't think that would be the case.
Ars Arcanum talks about Ruin pushing more on fabric of fabrial, and pushing souls beyond what they could handle.

So I see it that Hemalurgic constructs and people spiked prior to Catecedre would retain the 'empowered' version of Hemalurgy, but anyone spiked after, even with old spike, would not get those benefits since Ruin is no longer present to push on their soul.

Interesting. It’s not impossible, but we do need to account for when Marsh actually got the spike in that case. If the empowered Hemalurgy was actively done by Ruin, then it should’ve ended the moment Vin collided with him. That suggests Marsh got the F-Atium spike after fighting her but before he confronted Elend. Most of Ruin’s Inquistors were right there for the looting and Ruin himself would’ve been focused on Vin.
 

If Era 2 Hemalurgy was instead a gradual process caused by Harmony, Marsh would’ve had plenty of time. Also, Spook shouldn’t been doing Hemalurgy immediately after the Ascension. Thus, this interpretation makes it more feasible for Spook to have Atium Compounding. If the first one is true, his longevity was probably cadmium based (barring worldhopper intervention).

Or it’s just that any spike made in Era 1 functions normally, as I said. I don’t believe we can dismiss any of the three theories out of hand, but I’d be happy to hear further arguments

Edited April 16, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[therunner he/him]

47 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Interesting. It’s not impossible, but we do need to account for when Marsh actually got the spike in that case. If the empowered Hemalurgy was actively done by Ruin, then it should’ve ended the moment Vin collided with him. That suggests Marsh got the F-Atium spike after fighting her but before he confronted Elend. Most of Ruin’s Inquistors were right there for the looting and Ruin himself would’ve been focused on Vin.

If Era 2 Hemalurgy was instead a gradual process caused by Harmony, Marsh would’ve had plenty of time. Also, Spook shouldn’t been doing Hemalurgy immediately after the Ascension. Thus, this interpretation makes it more feasible for Spook to have Atium Compounding. If the first one is true, his longevity was probably cadmium based (barring worldhopper intervention).

Or it’s just that any spike made in Era 1 functions normally, as I said. I don’t believe we can dismiss any of the three theories out of hand, but I’d be happy to hear further arguments

So, proposed 3 scenarios (please correct me if you intended them differently)

1. Spikes made in Era 1 continue to function as previously and can provide H-Compounding.
2. Immediately after Ruin was destroyed H-Compounding ceased to be possible, unless spikes were already in place.
3. There was a window after Harmony Ascended where Hemalurgic compounding was still possible, however after certain (relatively short most likely) amount of time, H-compounding became impossible.

Personally, I think 1. can be ruled out, otherwise this would have been noted (considering the amount of spikes left over). Inquisitor spikes were turned into Pathian earrings, and I doubt every Pathian earring would allow Compounding (though they could have been melted into big pile of alloyed metal).

2. I think is not the case, as most of the changes due to different person Ascending take time. Plus, as you mention, there is the issue of Marsh who seemingly had to get spike after Catecedre.

3. then seems like the left over option. But, we know that it was months before Spook was even approached by Kelsier to start looking into Hemalurgy, and hemalurgic decay would still be in effect, so any F-atium spike would be very weak (and there would have been no reason to store it in blood for months). 
So I don't think Spook had option to get F-Atium spike, even in that window.

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Personally, I think 1. can be ruled out, otherwise this would have been noted (considering the amount of spikes left over). Inquisitor spikes were turned into Pathian earrings, and I doubt every Pathian earring would allow Compounding (though they could have been melted into big pile of alloyed metal).

I don't agree. We've never seen Wax using the hemalurgic power of his earrings at all, and a single inquisitor spike would be split into dozens of earrings or more, reducing the power of a single earring to almost nothing. Moreover Wax wasn't even aware that those earrings are pre-Catacendre inquisitor spikes. Those spikes were in the hands of Kandra, as that was where Wax got them from twice. I highly doubt every Pathian would have spikes from inquisitors, as there would be millions of them, where there were around 20 inquisitors, there is no way for everyone to have an earring out of inquisitors, most were likely from koloss spikes, as Ruin accumulated more than 300000 koloss, more than enough to create millions of Pathian earrings. Or most of the earrings were non-hemalurgic, which would explain why Wax got his from Kandra specifically, as most of Pathians would have a simple metal instead bought from a store or passed down by a family member.

Not to mention intent. For them to use the power of an earring they would have to know what power there is, and because there are around 30 possibilities, people would not be able to figure out which power they have. The chances for a Misting/Ferring getting a spike with corresponding power, which would allow him compounding, is very low and not possible at all if Kandra alone were distributing inquisitor spikes because they would ensure nobody would be able to compound.

[therunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't agree. We've never seen Wax using the hemalurgic power of his earrings at all, and a single inquisitor spike would be split into dozens of earrings or more, reducing the power of a single earring to almost nothing. Moreover Wax wasn't even aware that those earrings are pre-Catacendre inquisitor spikes. Those spikes were in the hands of Kandra, as that was where Wax got them from twice. I highly doubt every Pathian would have spikes from inquisitors, as there would be millions of them, where there were around 20 inquisitors, there is no way for everyone to have an earring out of inquisitors,
...
Or most of the earrings were non-hemalurgic, which would explain why Wax got his from Kandra specifically, as most of Pathians would have a simple metal instead bought from a store or passed down by a family member.

Not all of them, but single Inquisitor spike is enough metal as a small sword, so you could make a lot of small earrings out of them (Wax' is basically a stud). An earring like that can be 2-4 grams, so from a single spike you could make something like ~150-300 earrings. From all 20 Inquisitors that is at minimum (assuming just 10 spikes) 30000-60000 earrings.
Not all, but still too much for no one to have noticed nothing.
And not all of them are spikes, as you mention.

Quote

most were likely from koloss spikes, as Ruin accumulated more than 300000 koloss, more than enough to create millions of Pathian earrings.

Koloss were turned into a breeding species but still require spikes, so I would expect Harmony would want most of those spikes to go back to their hands.

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The chances for a Misting/Ferring getting a spike with corresponding power, which would allow him compounding, is very low and not possible at all if Kandra alone were distributing inquisitor spikes because they would ensure nobody would be able to compound.

But non-zero, and theft is still possible issue if anyone realizes what they have on hands.

Additionally, Spook would have to know Compounding is possible (which no one knew other than TLR and eventually Marsh), so either he for some reason kept F-Atium spike preserved long enough to use eventually, or he just got lucky.

Edited April 16, 2023 by therunner

[Mistchemist16]

 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not to mention intent. For them to use the power of an earring they would have to know what power there is, and because there are around 30 possibilities, people would not be able to figure out which power they have. The chances for a Misting/Ferring getting a spike with corresponding power, which would allow him compounding, is very low and not possible at all if Kandra alone were distributing inquisitor spikes because they would ensure nobody would be able to compound.

Just want to clarify something. You dont necessarily have to know which power a spike provides, just that it has one. Think back to Spook getting his pewter. Ruin only said that the vials weren’t tin. Spook only realizes that it’s pewter after he burns the metal. But he can still find the reserve just by having reason to look for one.That being said, the rest is valid. Given the rarity of Metalborn and the kandra monoplizing spikes, it’s unlikely anyone would crack Compounding.