What's up with Passionspren!?

[Argenti he/him]

The fact that a spren of passion exists is fascinating. Passion is covered by Odium, with Passion being part of Odium's Intent along with hatred. This could mean either two things,

 

1. Odium's power has completely infiltrated the Rosharian system and is now fully merged with the spren-ecology of Roshar. This could mean that Passionspren are a form of voidspren or some kind of mixture of investures.
2. Different shards can mimic other shards' pure intent via a splinter.

Both possibilities have cosmere spanning consequences, if Odium is fully invested into Roshar, new magic systems should develop (or have developed), meaning we could see more powers than just pure Odium. If different Shards can mimic each other's intents, this could explain how future magic hacks might work (And how Ruin got involved in Nightblood).

[Treamayne]

45 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Passion is covered by Odium, with Passion being part of Odium's Intent along with hatred.

Maybe. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

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Questioner

In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves?

Brandon Sanderson

I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Part of him does.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Basically, he's lying to himself and everybody else.

 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Argenti said:

• Odium's power has completely infiltrated the Rosharian system and is now fully merged with the spren-ecology of Roshar. This could mean that Passionspren are a form of voidspren or some kind of mixture of investures.

That's the case, it was said in RoW that Odium is so much invested in Roshar, that it's natural part of it like Honor and Cultivation, and his pure tone is part of the Roshar as much as pure tone of Cultivation is. And I think it was said it has been like that for a long time, at least since the False Desolation and BAM capture.

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

That's the case, it was said in RoW that Odium is so much invested in Roshar, that it's natural part of it like Honor and Cultivation, and his pure tone is part of the Roshar as much as pure tone of Cultivation is. And I think it was said it has been like that for a long time, at least since the False Desolation and BAM capture.

Do you think passionspren are a mix?

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Do you think passionspren are a mix?

All sprens are a mix of Honor and Cultivation. Passionspren are attracted to passions like love but also by the Thrill (by Coppermind). I think that Venli noted that Odium being Passion is a lie, because he doesn't care about love, but being attracted to the Thrill might suggest they might have some Odium's investiture in them. Likely not much, just a tiny bit.

[Marabout]

Spren existed on Roshar before any of the shards arrived.
I wouldn’t say all Spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation… Maybe you can say that about the Nahel Spren?

Even then, I imagine that there were precursor or “primal” forms of all the Nahel Spren present on Roshar before H, C, and O ever arrived.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Spren existed on Roshar before any of the shards arrived.
I wouldn’t say all Spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation… Maybe you can say that about the Nahel Spren?

Even then, I imagine that there were precursor or “primal” forms of all the Nahel Spren present on Roshar before H, C, and O ever arrived.

Yes, there were spren on Roshar before, but during the Shattering all investiture got associated with one of the 16 Shards. But later Honor and Cultivation came, invested the world and created more sprens, so all sprens now are mainly of Honor and Cultivation, Sapient spren didn't exist before. 

Spoiler

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a specific Shard that most of the spren come from?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the spren are going to be related to a combination of Honor and Cultivation, weighted certain directions for certain types of spren. But the spren are mostly both of them. 

Questioner

Are they considered Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could call spren Splinters if you wanted to. They work in the same way as a Splinter, so yeah.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

 

Spoiler

DoritoJH

We know that there are spren that are partially of Honor, partially of Cultivation, and Odium. Can there be spren made of any combination of Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, you would have to call them... Under that definition if you call a seon a spren, then yes. If you don't call a seon a spren, if you define a spren as, "On Roshar, related to the natural world of Roshar," then no. Theoretically yes, but it wouldn't really work. But it depends on how you define spren. If a Shard were to come and reside on Roshar like the other ones have, then you could theoretically see other new spren appearing out of them.

DoritoJH

Could there be a spren of all 16 Shards combined all at once?

Brandon Sanderson

*hands out RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 31, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Do the spren that we know of as the Cryptics exist before Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, good question! No. Cryptics would be one of the forms of spren that were a later creation. Creation is the wrong term, but yeah. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Later development? Evolution?

Brandon Sanderson

All of the sapient spren are later developments. 

Billy Todd, Moderator

Are they evolved from the earlier spren?

Brandon

Evolution doesn't work the same way on the spren, right? The spren were created more than evolved, I would say.

Billy Todd, Moderator

Maybe cultivated?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, cultivated. *laughter*

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Hi. I have two questions about the Cosmere. The first one is if a Radiant can have a bond with two spren, and the other one is if Truthwatcher spren are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so RAFO on if a Knight Radiant can have two spren. But the second question was, "Are spren of Cultivation?" One more time?

Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

Footnote: Brandon has previously said that it's theoretically possible to bond two spren.
EuroCon 2016 (Nov. 5, 2016)

 

[Marabout]

Probably just a wording mistake but he says “most” of the Knight Radiant Spren are from Honor and Cultivation.

It would be … interesting if that isn’t just a slip of the tongue.

Anyway, we are saying the same thing, yes most of the modern / evolved Spren were invested by the shards that came to the planet.  What I was saying is that the primal Spren were always there. For example, the planet had fire, water, earth, and wind pre-shards so it likely had Spren that corresponded to these.  

[alder24]

20 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Probably just a wording mistake but he says “most” of the Knight Radiant Spren are from Honor and Cultivation.

It would be … interesting if that isn’t just a slip of the tongue.

Glys. He forms Radiant bond but is corrupted with Odium's investiture. That's not a mistake or a slip, that's Glys and other enlightened spren.

20 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Anyway, we are saying the same thing, yes most of the modern / evolved Spren were invested by the shards that came to the planet.  What I was saying is that the primal Spren were always there. For example, the planet had fire, water, earth, and wind pre-shards so it likely had Spren that corresponded to these.  

Yes, but we're not talking about pre-Shattering Roshar, nor about Seons and Skaze, who are spren as well. We're talking about modern times, where most spren are of Honor and Cultivation. Those primal spren were changed/evolved/invested/cultivated by Honor and Cultivation in those 10000 years. Just like Highstorm predates the Shattering but now are almost exclusively out of Honor, so does primal spren.

Spoiler

Snote85

Have the Highstorms always existed on Roshar? The excerpt that talks about how one of the Bondsmiths had resigned himself to fight the Voidbringers but woke up and had a new idea, one that had to do with the nature of the Heralds themselves. Then, inside the Oathgate, we see "mythical creatures" like lions and such. It would make sense that the world might have been different when the KR were last around. So much so, that if the Highstorms "Opposite" is the Everstorm and it was made by followers of Odium, then the Highstorm would have been made by followers of Honor.

Brandon Sanderson

Highstorms did predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation on Roshar, but it has evolved much during the thousands of years since that event. It was not created by followers of Honor, but there is more to this story that you'll find out as the series progresses.

General Reddit 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

 

[Wandering Shade]

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

Probably just a wording mistake but he says “most” of the Knight Radiant Spren are from Honor and Cultivation.

It would be … interesting if that isn’t just a slip of the tongue.

I'd say its not a wording mistake but a word emphasis mistake.

I read it as a "Most of the Knight Radiant Spren are from Honor and Cultivation," meaning that most of the spren are made of both Honor and Cultivation, with the Stormfather and Nightwatcher being the obvious exceptions as they are only Honor and Cultivation respectively. But yeah, as @alder24 said, he could also be referring to the Enlightened Spren.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Marabout said:

Even then, I imagine that there were precursor or “primal” forms of all the Nahel Spren present on Roshar before H, C, and O ever arrived.

3 hours ago, Marabout said:

 What I was saying is that the primal Spren were always there. For example, the planet had fire, water, earth, and wind pre-shards so it likely had Spren that corresponded to these.  

It's not just Pre-Shattering, but we do know that at least some of the Spren from before the Desolatoins shared the Singer's four gendered forms (OB Ch 7):

Spoiler

“So … some of my spears have been women, then?” he asked.

“Female, at least,” Syl said. “Roughly half, as these things tend to go.” She flitted up into the air in front of him. “It’s your fault for personifying us, so no complaining. Of course, some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”

“What? Why?”

She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.”

 

[Kendelian he/him]

On this. The spren are more or less power given a mind, some being more intelligent than others. I don’t think that the Shards specifically made the spren (other than the Radiant spren), i think they more so just manifested as a result of large amounts of investiture being present.

[cometaryorbit]

I think Odium has been being tricky/deceptive about the meaning of Passion, and its seeped into the cultures (eg the Thaylen Passions). I think it's likelier that the *name* is Odium influenced than that the actual spren is. If they're of Odium then probably angerspren and fearspren should be too.

[bmcclure7]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:07 PM, Argenti said:

The fact that a spren of passion exists is fascinating. Passion is covered by Odium, with Passion being part of Odium's Intent along with hatred. This could mean either two things,

 

1. Odium's power has completely infiltrated the Rosharian system and is now fully merged with the spren-ecology of Roshar. This could mean that Passionspren are a form of voidspren or some kind of mixture of investures.
2. Different shards can mimic other shards' pure intent via a splinter.

Both possibilities have cosmere spanning consequences, if Odium is fully invested into Roshar, new magic systems should develop (or have developed), meaning we could see more powers than just pure Odium. If different Shards can mimic each other's intents, this could explain how future magic hacks might work (And how Ruin got involved in Nightblood).

 We already know number one to be true. Odium   Tone  Has joined the 2 others in the rhythm of roshar. 

 

Lesser void Sprint have been  Shown to be on roshar the entire time (storm spren and possible agnerspren) 

 Capturing and unmade literally physically affected the ecology of roshar.

[Spearguy]

okay this is giving me a chance to talk about what I've been thinking a bit about lately, and that's the fallibility of language and how it is always so subjective. For example right here, the Shard of Odium is more than just hatred, it's intent also describes conflict and emotion, and while hatred is a good way to describe that Shard's intent it is by definition incomplete.

This doesn't just apply to Odium, it applies to Honor, Cultivation, Autonomy and pretty much every shard. The names that are used for them are just people trying to do their best to describe things that are definitively infinite.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Spearguy said:

okay this is giving me a chance to talk about what I've been thinking a bit about lately, and that's the fallibility of language and how it is always so subjective. For example right here, the Shard of Odium is more than just hatred, it's intent also describes conflict and emotion, and while hatred is a good way to describe that Shard's intent it is by definition incomplete.

Not really, the Shard itself IS Odium, however its Vessel, Rayse, was trying very hard to redefine Shard's intent to Passion, with some results. Others don't do that. They're what their intent and name is saying, WoB:

Spoiler

yulerule

So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern.

Brandon Sanderson

So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually.

yulerule

But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why?

Brandon Sanderson

I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor.

yulerule

So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?>

Brandon Sanderson

Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better."

yulerule

Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion?

Brandon Sanderson

He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is.

yulerule

His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it can influence.

yulerule

So the Shard's intent can--

Brandon Sanderson

Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by alder24