Gold healing does not make sense

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I know I keep bringing it up, but I will keep bringing it up if I am responding anyway.

That's why in my example I defined it as "I'm using this term to mean tapping at the same rate <the ferring> stored". 

The math becomes very complex very quickly if you are trying to, for example, Sazed stored Eyesight at 75% of his normal for one week while translating the Logbook, then tapped to be "twice as much sight as normal."  So, is he 2x normal sight or 4x his storage rate or does it become a ratio of IU? The fill rate generated X IUs of Eyesight storage and tapping drained Y IUs of eyesight storage" etc.

They were only examples to illustrate a point - that the examples to which I was responding were showing (IMO) inflated levels of loss due to compression. Without more data we can only define our terms to illustrate a concept then attempt to stay internally consistent to make the example grokkable. 

I'm not saying that tapping depends on storage. I'm illustrating the example that storing yields an amount of investiture, and that stored investiture compresses through mutiplicative tapping with a measureable loss (that is likely a basic progression, but possibly an incrementing progression). To make the math easy, and to follow the example used in the WoB, I used the numbers as shown.

Hope that helps. 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I know you like this WoB, but it's just "a little bit weaker", so in our calculation it's negligible, compared to compression happening when tapped 2x. So for all intended purposes it is 1:1, as 0.1% loss is not that much. 

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Yoonseo Chang

Looking at Allomancy, you've mentioned that over time the power dilutes and each ability becomes less powerful. (for example a Tineye in Era 2 will generally be less powerful than one in Era 1) Does the same effect happen in Feruchemy as well? How would Feruchemy become less pure or diluted (other than Ferrings appearing)?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not gone as far with Feruchemy in that regard. I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute. There is decay there, you don't get a 1:1. Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before, a little bit but not much. This was done partially for narrative reasons. I wanted Allomancy... I wanted to back off a little on Allomancy and tell stories with it a little bit weaker. Again, mostly narrative reasons at this point. At this point on Scadrial, it's weakened about as much as it's going to because by this point people are having children that are more powerful because of the certain mixing. I'm not saying it's going up, I'm saying they have hit an equilibrium on Scadrial for the most part, at least in the Basin.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

The little bit is in refrence to decay in power compared to Era 1, not decay as in not 1 to 1. The WoB implies it wasn't 1 to 1 in Era 1.

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That's why in my example I defined it as "I'm using this term to mean tapping at the same rate <ferring> stored". 

The math becomes very complex very quickly if you are trying to, for example, Sazed stored Eyesight at 75% of his normal for one week while translating the Logbook, then tapped to be "twice as much sight as normal."  So, is he one 2x normal sight or 4x his storage rate or does it become a ratio of IU? The fill rate generated X IUs of Eyesight storage and tapping drained y IUs of eyesight storage" etc.

They were only examples to illustrate a point - that the examples to which I was responding were showing (IMO) inflated levels of loss due to compression. Without more data we can only define our terms to illustrate a concept then attempt to stay internally consistent to make the example grokkable. 

I'm not saying that Tapping depends on storage. I'm illustrating the example that Storing yields an amount of investiture, and that stored investiture compresses through mutiplicative tapping with a measureable loss (that is likely a basic progression, but possibly an incrementing progression). 

Hope that helps. 

I know you were being illustrative, but I want to bring it up whenever I am going to reply anyway. It isn't a huge deal, but it's technically not right, so I bring it up.

And I understand why you did it like you did - It's the closest to real math we get. Intrestingly, if we get burn rates of normal and fuerochemical metals, we will actually get our first investiture unit that isn't arbitrary nor effect based.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

The little bit is in refrence to decay in power compared to Era 1, not decay as in not 1 to 1. The WoB implies it wasn't 1 to 1 in Era 1.

The WoB is all about the same thing. Decay in power happening over generations, making it not being 1:1 when tapped.  The loss of power was in era 1, is in era 2, but it is still negligible so it's ~1:1, it's practically 1:1 as there is no measurable or noticeable loss.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The WoB is all about the same thing. Decay in power happening over generations, making it not being 1:1 when tapped.  The loss of power was in era 1, is in era 2, but it is still negligible so it's ~1:1, it's practically 1:1 as there is no measurable or noticeable loss.

That isn't how I understand the WoB at all. I'll go through it, but it is harder to handle these types of miscommunications over forum.

When he says there is a decay, he says it in an absolute way, not in a way that sugests change from the past. The part you bolded is fuerochemistry in general, not the current not 1 to 1. I don't have time to pick apart the exact wording for American English conventions, and compare it to other similar WoBs right now, but if it's needed I will.

[alder24]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That isn't how I understand the WoB at all. I'll go through it, but it is harder to handle these types of miscommunications over forum.

When he says there is a decay, he says it in an absolute way, not in a way that sugests change from the past. The part you bolded is fuerochemistry in general, not the current not 1 to 1. I don't have time to pick apart the exact wording for American English conventions, and compare it to other similar WoBs right now, but if it's needed I will.

There is only one way for a Feruchemy to get weaker, getting less attributes than you store it. What is the other way the generational decay can manifest? The WoB talks only about a generational decay, which is manifested by getting less attribute than you store it, which makes it not 1:1. That's it. Feruchemist don't get 1:1 stored to tapped ratio, because their power get diluted over time, just like Allomancy was. There is no other logical way for Feruchemy to get weaker. And it is still just a little bit, so it's not significant, which is confirmed by the fact that no Feruchemist ever noticed that they were getting less than they stored when they were tapping 1:1.

[Frustration]

They aren't storing their physical ability to heal, but rather their Connection to their spirit, and their ability to make their body match their spiritual ideal

Spoiler

Questioner

You have this technical approach to Allomantic powers. But Feruchemy seems to me very different. So it's not very logical that you can store up health. What is health?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. I feel that it is. But it has its own definitions. In the Cosmere perception - I don't know if you know...

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

Questioner

So the same about speed and ...

Brandon Sanderson

Those are a little different. But each has their little behind the scenes explanation for myself. The problem is... The physics of it is very Cosmere-physics for Feruchemy, whereas for Allomancy it's a lot more out world physics with a different power source. We're changing that. But the physics do work for me. But obviously it's magic, so I'm breaking them anyway.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

[therunner he/him]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

They aren't storing their physical ability to heal, but rather their Connection to their spirit, and their ability to make their body match their spiritual ideal

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

You have this technical approach to Allomantic powers. But Feruchemy seems to me very different. So it's not very logical that you can store up health. What is health?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. I feel that it is. But it has its own definitions. In the Cosmere perception - I don't know if you know...

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

Questioner

So the same about speed and ...

Brandon Sanderson

Those are a little different. But each has their little behind the scenes explanation for myself. The problem is... The physics of it is very Cosmere-physics for Feruchemy, whereas for Allomancy it's a lot more out world physics with a different power source. We're changing that. But the physics do work for me. But obviously it's magic, so I'm breaking them anyway.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

Thanks for the WoB!
Though, based on this passage (quoted below) it seems to me less like a Connection to their spirit, and more the part of spiritweb that determines what 'healthy' is + ability to match that template.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

 

[cometaryorbit]

It's probably relevant that Gold is not a Physical metal, it's a Hybrid metal (Temporal for Allomancy). So it's physical-ish but not purely a physical thing.

Someone - I don't remember who - pointed that out to me on the Discord when I complained about the weirdness/unbalanced-ness of F-gold being able to heal things like Hemalurgic or Shardblade wounds when Sazed and Wayne only seem to get physical symptoms from storing health.

The idea of storing a general spiritual/physical matchup concept of health would explain how you can equate 'being sickly for X weeks' with 'heal a soul-wound' - all the storage just turns into generic health-power which fixes whatever is needed when tapped.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

There is only one way for a Feruchemy to get weaker, getting less attributes than you store it. What is the other way the generational decay can manifest? The WoB talks only about a generational decay, which is manifested by getting less attribute than you store it, which makes it not 1:1. That's it. Feruchemist don't get 1:1 stored to tapped ratio, because their power get diluted over time, just like Allomancy was. There is no other logical way for Feruchemy to get weaker. And it is still just a little bit, so it's not significant, which is confirmed by the fact that no Feruchemist ever noticed that they were getting less than they stored when they were tapping 1:1.

He talks about 2 types of decay: Attribute decay (in an individual) and power decay (in a population). The Attribute decay is effected by the power decay, but he doesn't say that the attribute decay didn't exist earlier. As for no one mentioning it, they also don't remark about how their foot moves when they walk. If it isn't major, narratively important, nor unusual, it gets brushed over. Additionally, the power decay has gone on since before TFE. In Era 1, there was Attribute Decay.

For some reason the other posts didn't load. 

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

They aren't storing their physical ability to heal, but rather their Connection to their spirit, and their ability to make their body match their spiritual ideal

  Hide contents

Questioner

You have this technical approach to Allomantic powers. But Feruchemy seems to me very different. So it's not very logical that you can store up health. What is health?

Brandon Sanderson

Well. I feel that it is. But it has its own definitions. In the Cosmere perception - I don't know if you know...

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

... it really affects... It's kind of more like a concept of heallth. The idea of your body's ability to recuperate quickly. The magic system translates to your body's ability to match your spiritual self. When that is depleted, your body in the Cosmere starts to stray (? a bit indistinctive in the recording). Foreign things can get into it, diseases get into you, and your spirit can get a little more corrupted. Your body getting corrupted, your spirit's not getting corrupted. You get it, and it makes you extra connected to your spiritual sense. Your body moves to match it closely and better.

Questioner

So the same about speed and ...

Brandon Sanderson

Those are a little different. But each has their little behind the scenes explanation for myself. The problem is... The physics of it is very Cosmere-physics for Feruchemy, whereas for Allomancy it's a lot more out world physics with a different power source. We're changing that. But the physics do work for me. But obviously it's magic, so I'm breaking them anyway.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

Nice! Is there something on it for storing warmth or determination?

Edited March 10, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

He talks about 2 types of decay: Attribute decay (in an individual) and power decay (in a population). The Attribute decay is effected by the power decay, but he doesn't say that the attribute decay didn't exist earlier. As for no one mentioning it, they also don't remark about how their foot moves when they walk. If it isn't major, narratively important, nor unusual, it gets brushed over. Additionally, the power decay has gone on since before TFE. In Era 1, there was Attribute Decay.

No, he's talking about the same thing. "I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute". There is no attribute decay in tapping at the same speed other than the one from generational decay. Feruchemy has been existing for more than 2000 years, in that time it got weaker by attribute decay, which is negligible. The attribute decay is the effect of generational decay, and nothing else. There is no difference in power between Feruchemists living in the same time period, so there is no attribute decay, only generational one. 

And uno reversing your "narrative argument", Brandon in that WoB literally tells us that it's bearly anything because of narrative reasons.

The only attribute decay is in Hemalurgicaly granted Feruchemy, and it's because of Hemalurgy. 

You won't convince me that it's different based on that single WoB. 

And no, comparing different Feruchemists explaining how Feruchemy works in 6 books is way different and significant than "remark about how their foot moves when they walk". It's in no way a valid argument. Not to mention many WoBs explaining how Feruchemy works, without mentioning any decay, proving again it is very negligible.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

26 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, he's talking about the same thing. "I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute". There is no attribute decay in tapping at the same speed other than the one from generational decay. Feruchemy has been existing for more than 2000 years, in that time it got weaker by attribute decay, which is negligible. The attribute decay is the effect of generational decay, and nothing else. There is no difference in power between Feruchemists living in the same time period, so there is no attribute decay, only generational one. 

And uno reversing your "narrative argument", Brandon in that WoB literally tells us that it's bearly anything because of narrative reasons.

The only attribute decay is in Hemalurgicaly granted Feruchemy, and it's because of Hemalurgy. 

You won't convince me that it's different based on that single WoB. 

And no, comparing different Feruchemists explaining how Feruchemy works in 6 books is way different and significant than "remark about how their foot moves when they walk". It's in no way a valid argument. Not to mention many WoBs explaining how Feruchemy works, without mentioning any decay, proving again it is very negligible.

I'm not saying it's not negligable, I'm saying it exists, in Era 1, & that it existed before then, and claiming X is the reason. And this isn't the only WoB I use, X reason also explains the loss from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another.

Spoiler

Lightning

If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes...

Brandon Sanderson

You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I am not saying it is significant, but I hesitate to say it's negligable, since the generational/power decay that is negligable is since era 1, and feruchemists were having generational decay since before era 1.

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, he's talking about the same thing. "I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute". There is no attribute decay in tapping at the same speed other than the one from generational decay. Feruchemy has been existing for more than 2000 years, in that time it got weaker by attribute decay, which is negligible. The attribute decay is the effect of generational decay, and nothing else. There is no difference in power between Feruchemists living in the same time period, so there is no attribute decay, only generational one. 

And no, comparing different Feruchemists explaining how Feruchemy works in 6 books is way different and significant than "remark about how their foot moves when they walk". It's in no way a valid argument.

Why do you say that? I highly doubt that the first feruchemist was 100% efficient, but even if she was, there was generational decay from the first generation.

What makes it an invalid argument? It isn't very large, it's perceived as normal or hasn't been perceived by characters, and the change in values hasn't been noticed by characters. Brandon has no reason to make the change be known to characters even if there was a way to track it with what they have now. The way people walked would have changed at the catacendre, but no one mentions it. Why? It's not naritively important, and people probably didn't even notice, as their new bodies were built for walking the way they were walking before, and their old bodies were made for walking the way they walked before.

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

What I hear you saying is this:

Generational decay started in era 2.
Feruchemistry was 100% efficient in era 1.
Characters would have brought it up.
Brandon would have brought it.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I'm not saying it's not negligable, I'm saying it exists, in Era 1, & that it existed before then, and claiming X is the reason. And this isn't the only WoB I use, X reason also explains the loss from moving an attribute from one metalmind to another.

  Reveal hidden contents

Lightning

If you have a metalmind, you have, like, weight stored in it, and you want to transfer it to a different metalmind, can you just transfer it directly? Or does it pass into you, and then you lose some of the power, and then it goes...

Brandon Sanderson

You don't have to draw it completely out. You are gonna lose a little in the transfer. But it's not as much as you probably think. You can kind of do a little hack thing where it goes through.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

I am not saying it is significant, but I hesitate to say it's negligable, since the generational/power decay that is negligable is since era 1, and feruchemists were having generational decay since before era 1.

This WoB is not about normal Feruchemical decay, so is not a WoB proving your point.

3 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Do you understand what I am trying to say?

What I hear you saying is this:

Generational decay started in era 2.
Feruchemistry was 100% efficient in era 1.
Characters would have brought it up.
Brandon would have brought it.

Do you even read what I am writing? 

No, generational decay started with the second generation of Feruchemists being born, thousands of years before Era 1. Since then it was progressively growing "bigger" with every new generation.
No, generational decay was present during Era 1, and weakened Feruchemy to some small degree up to this point.
If it was a noticeable difference, characters would have brought it up.
If it was important part of the Feruchemy mechanics, Brandon would have explained it to us on multiple occasions. The WoB you constantly referring to clearly states that this decay is not a lot.

8 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Why do you say that? I highly doubt that the first feruchemist was 100% efficient,

He might not be, but the difference would be once again negligible

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

What makes it an invalid argument?

Because walking isn't a contributing factor in basic mechanics of the magic system, but power decay is. We are constantly told in books, annotations and WoBs that Feruchemist can store 1h of 50% attribute and then tap it for 1h without any noticeable loss. So, it is as close to 1:1 as possible, which even your WoB tells us. Brandon confirmed that there is a generational decay, weakening Feruchemy, so it isn't 1:1, but he also stated it is a very small loss, so small that "Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before". So the decay in Feruchemy is in fact negligible in the story, in math, and in assumptions for any theory and discussions, and it isn't wrong to write that "Feruchemist can store 1h of 50% attribute and then tap it for 1h to be 150% of attribute".

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This WoB is not about normal Feruchemical decay, so is not a WoB proving your point.

Do you even read what I am writing? 

No, generational decay started with the second generation of Feruchemists being born, thousands of years before Era 1. Since then it was progressively growing "bigger" with every new generation.
No, generational decay was present during Era 1, and weakened Feruchemy to some small degree up to this point.
If it was a noticeable difference, characters would have brought it up.
If it was important part of the Feruchemy mechanics, Brandon would have explained it to us on multiple occasions. The WoB you constantly referring to clearly states that this decay is not a lot.

He might not be, but the difference would be once again negligible

Because walking isn't a contributing factor in basic mechanics of the magic system, but power decay is. We are constantly told in books, annotations and WoBs that Feruchemist can store 1h of 50% attribute and then tap it for 1h without any noticeable loss. So, it is as close to 1:1 as possible, which even your WoB tells us. Brandon confirmed that there is a generational decay, weakening Feruchemy, so it isn't 1:1, but he also stated it is a very small loss, so small that "Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before". So the decay in Feruchemy is in fact negligible in the story, in math, and in assumptions for any theory and discussions, and it isn't wrong to write that "Feruchemist can store 1h of 50% attribute and then tap it for 1h to be 150% of attribute".

That clears some things up. Most of the time it's "no thats not how that works, here's why" and doesn't address the things we agree on.

However, the WoB is about both by the same principles behind the transitive property of equality. Thing is, there is no WoB providing direct evidence one way or another. There are 2 phenominon, and several possible explanations. I'm arguing for one explanation, investiture gets used on filling, that explains 2 of the phenominan we see - the movement decay and the attribute decay. Both are small amounts not noticed in the books. Our argument is over what phenomenon cause this, right?

I am not saying it isn't small, but that sentance is about the generational decay. Otherwise, good points.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That clears some things up. Most of the time it's "no thats not how that works, here's why" and doesn't address the things we agree on.

However, the WoB is about both by the same principles behind the transitive property of equality. Thing is, there is no WoB providing direct evidence one way or another. There are 2 phenominon, and several possible explanations. I'm arguing for one explanation, investiture gets used on filling, that explains 2 of the phenominan we see - the movement decay and the attribute decay. Both are small amounts not noticed in the books. Our argument is over what phenomenon cause this, right?

I am not saying it isn't small, but that sentance is about the generational decay. Otherwise, good points.

I'm claiming that there is only one type of decay, which is caused by weakening of Feruchemy over generations, and the whole WoB was about it. I can see investiture being used to transfer attributes into metalminds, it's a work after all, but until more WoBs become available, we won't reach a conclusion. And that is totally fine. Good discussion.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm claiming that there is only one type of decay, which is caused by weakening of Feruchemy over generations, and the whole WoB was about it. I can see investiture being used to transfer attributes into metalminds, it's a work after all, but until more WoBs become available, we won't reach a conclusion. And that is totally fine. Good discussion.

Good discussion.