Metalborn Power Combinations

[Trusk'our]

I'm wondering what different kinds of unique interactions may exist between the powers of the Metallic Arts.

For example:

1. Tapping and storing F-iron allows for your Steelpushing and Ironpulling to be enhanced and manipulated.

2. F-tin can store other senses, even at least some granted via Allomancy, such as Bronze-sense.

3. Healing enhancement from A-pewter can be Feruchemically stored in gold.

4. A-duralumin can be used to make compounding a Metalmind instantaneous.

5. A Hemalurgic spike providing A-bronze on top of a natural bronze Misting will allow them to pierce Copperclouds.

6. Emotional Allomancy used from the inside of a Bendalloy-Speedbubble will have its effect (raw power) increased when used on someone outside of the bubble.

Any other weird/cool Metalborn powers that might go interesting together and make new and interesting affects?

[alder24]

1. A-electrum and F-zinc would allow you to process electrum shadows quickly which would make it more similar to Atium. Add F-chromium to the mix and you could get even better insight into the Spiritual Realm.

2. Maybe F-duralumin and emotional allomancy could make you better at both, with more controllable emotions and connections (like rioting trust and friendliness and then tapping connection to make someone even more friendly towards you). It could probably make some interesting effects. but this is very speculative.

3. Inquisitor's steelsight can not only be learned by a regular iron/steel Misting, but also stored/tapped in F-tin which could be helpful in seeing very minor details (like seeing fully behind walls).

4. A-pewter and F-bendalloy would allow you to safly drag pewter for longer time with energy and water provided from bendalloymind.

5. While I don't think there is that much health to be stored from A-pewter (but still is), there is a lot of strength, some physical speed, warmth, and even wakefulness, as Mistborn burning it doesn't need that much sleep (Vin was sleeping like 4h during HoA).

6. A-pewter with a combination of F-tin to tap pain stored in tinminds, can help you safely achieve savantism and use its powers without worrying you miss some serious wounds.

7. Additionally A-pewter with F-brass will allow you to strike burning punches, as you can heat up yourself to high temperatures, without suffering ill effects (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1097), A-pewter with F-steel or F-iron would make your punches much stronger (Sazed tap F-iron when striking with a hammer to crush kandra's bones in HoA).

8. You want to skip even more time? Burn A-cadmium and store wakefulness with F-bronze.

A-pewter forms a good combination with almost everything, as well as F-steel and F-zinc. 

[therunner]

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

6. A-pewter with a combination of F-tin to tap pain stored in tinminds, can help you safely achieve savantism and use its powers without worrying you miss some serious wounds.

I don't think this one would work. Becoming a savant in A-pewter means you no longer feel pain, so tinmind won't help there. Sure you could probably tap it to feel pain when you want, but you would still not feel pain when you should, so the danger would be there.

[alder24]

56 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think this one would work. Becoming a savant in A-pewter means you no longer feel pain, so tinmind won't help there. Sure you could probably tap it to feel pain when you want, but you would still not feel pain when you should, so the danger would be there.

I think it works more like a tolerance, like to warmth/cold (Ham), the more pewter you burn and the more your soul is changing, the bigger the tolerance gets, this includes pain. But it will never be full tolerance. So while they don't feel pain, because their tolerance is so high, it could be brought down by tinminds enough, so they could feel at least the most severe wounds. I admit this is very speculative, and it might be like you said, but if it works like a tolerance, then your body can never achieve full tolerance to something, there is always a limit, and with tinminds you could bring it down so you could feel pain again.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

A spike can steal the "human sences" granted by invested powers granted by hemalurgy. Need steelsight, but not steel or iron? Kill 1 guy for steel/iron, give it to another, have them burn, then kill them for the sight. Rinse and repeat.

Aluminum can allow F-bendalloy to eat everything with just 2 bendalloyminds. Similarly, one can become as cold as one wants with A-aluminum and F-Bronze (or is it brass) can become as cold as they want.

[Trusk'our]

58 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

A spike can steal the "human sences" granted by invested powers granted by hemalurgy. Need steelsight, but not steel or iron? Kill 1 guy for steel/iron, give it to another, have them burn, then kill them for the sight. Rinse and repeat.

I don't think that you can use a Hemalurgic spike to take a power that's inside another Hemalurgic spike; it's in the spike, not the person you're performing stabby shenanigans on.

Steelsight would still be pretty neat to have 24/7 though 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

A spike can steal the "human sences" granted by invested powers granted by hemalurgy. Need steelsight, but not steel or iron? Kill 1 guy for steel/iron, give it to another, have them burn, then kill them for the sight. Rinse and repeat.

I think there was a WoB about stealing attributes given by hemalurgy, but I can't find it. While you could steal steelsight, why would you do it when you can get steel Allomancy?

12 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Aluminum can allow F-bendalloy to eat everything with just 2 bendalloyminds. Similarly, one can become as cold as one wants with A-aluminum and F-Bronze (or is it brass) can become as cold as they want.

Why? No. I doubt it would work like that. Because aluminum works like chromium, you would burn away your metalminds, while burning it. And if you tap Brass for lots of heat, burning aluminum would most likely just burn away all that attribute that you're getting from tapping Brass, so you would just return to normal temperature. 

Spoiler

Sirce Luckwielder (paraphrased)

Can aluminum be used to destroy a Feruchemist's metalmind if the person burning aluminum were to cut his hand and place it on the metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that cutting the hand would probably not be enough, but that I was on the right track.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con FanX 2015 (Jan. 31, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of-- am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike...

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

[Xiahida]

 

On 3/4/2023 at 8:56 AM, Trusk'our said:

I'm wondering what different kinds of unique interactions may exist between the powers of the Metallic Arts.

For example:

1. Tapping and storing F-iron allows for your Steelpushing and Ironpulling to be enhanced and manipulated.

2. F-tin can store other senses, even at least some granted via Allomancy, such as Bronze-sense.

3. Healing enhancement from A-pewter can be Feruchemically stored in gold.

4. A-duralumin can be used to make compounding a Metalmind instantaneous.

5. A Hemalurgic spike providing A-bronze on top of a natural bronze Misting will allow them to pierce Copperclouds.

6. Emotional Allomancy used from the inside of a Bendalloy-Speedbubble will have its effect (raw power) increased when used on someone outside of the bubble.

Any other weird/cool Metalborn powers that might go interesting together and make new and interesting affects?

For number four here how does that work? Does it use the metalmind instantaneously and increases the output manyfold?

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

For number four here how does that work? Does it use the metalmind instantaneously and increases the output manyfold?

Compounding is burning metalminds like allomantic metals. So it takes some time to fully burn allomantic metals, duralumin burns them instantly and releases all that power, which you would get by burning that metalmind normally, in that moment. So the power you get by burning with duralumin is the same as by burning that metalmind without it, but but you get all that power now.

Spoiler

Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Compounding is burning metalminds like allomantic metals. So it takes some time to fully burn allomantic metals, duralumin burns them instantly and releases all that power, which you would get by burning that metalmind normally, in that moment. So the power you get by burning with duralumin is the same as by burning that metalmind without it, but but you get all that power now.

  Hide contents

Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

Yeah, and then you can store the huge influx of Investiture Feruchemically instead of needing to use it all at once. 

So you could burn through a dozen Metalminds in a minute and store their power for later use instead of needing to spend the time it would normally take to burn through them.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/7/2023 at 4:30 PM, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that you can use a Hemalurgic spike to take a power that's inside another Hemalurgic spike; it's in the spike, not the person you're performing stabby shenanigans on.

Steelsight would still be pretty neat to have 24/7 though 

Right. I explained it porly:

1. Stab a counshot, lurcher, or mistborn. I'll say coinshot for now, but it works either way.
2. Give the steel spike granting A-steel to someone.
3. Have them burn steel, so they have steelsight.
4. Stab them with a tin spike to steel the steelsight. This can be deadly.
5. Remove the steel spike from them, and give it to someone else.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 to get an infinite number of tinspikes granting steelsight from a single coinshot.
7. Repeat with gold, electrum, and bronze, possibly F-chromium or breaths in a necrosil spike.
   Alternatively, you can use an F-tin spike to tap pre-made stores (made with F-gold or F-Aluminum) to get all 4-6 of these from 1 spike.

On 3/8/2023 at 3:47 AM, alder24 said:

I think there was a WoB about stealing attributes given by hemalurgy, but I can't find it. While you could steal steelsight, why would you do it when you can get steel Allomancy?

Why? No. I doubt it would work like that. Because aluminum works like chromium, you would burn away your metalminds, while burning it. And if you tap Brass for lots of heat, burning aluminum would most likely just burn away all that attribute that you're getting from tapping Brass, so you would just return to normal temperature. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sirce Luckwielder (paraphrased)

Can aluminum be used to destroy a Feruchemist's metalmind if the person burning aluminum were to cut his hand and place it on the metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that cutting the hand would probably not be enough, but that I was on the right track.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con FanX 2015 (Jan. 31, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of-- am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike...

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

It's a way to turn any animal that can burn metals/tap metalminds into a spike factory without killing more than 1 metalborn. SoScadrians might be intrested, but medalians are better than hemalurgy to an extent. Of course, one can get all but 8 allomantic powers from medalians + hemalurgy if they don't interfere, the 4 limit holds, and they can make allomantic medalians, all of which are speculative.

I explained it bad. Let me explain it better. But first, this to get an infinte amount of tapping ability, AKA eat everything (no calories/nutrients), or getting cold. Not getting hot, or getting nutrients without eating.

1. Fill your metalmind as full as you want.
2. Tap it incredibly slowly. It isn't inside your body.
3. Burn aluminum.

This empties the metalmind, same as leach while tapping. Of course, one can do this by jsut moving attribute from one metalmind to another constantly, but that takes a longer time, and more concentration.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

It's a way to turn any animal that can burn metals/tap metalminds into a spike factory without killing more than 1 metalborn. SoScadrians might be intrested, but medalians are better than hemalurgy to an extent. Of course, one can get all but 8 allomantic powers from medalians + hemalurgy if they don't interfere, the 4 limit holds, and they can make allomantic medalians, all of which are speculative.

For a steelsight? You are most likely killing everyone, as stealing attributes is done by spiking the heart, at least for now. And you know, it's just steelsight, not steel push. It isn't worth the trouble. If you want it, just take a steel spike (with A-iron/steel, and put it in your eye, or even an empty one like Kel have). That's much easier and cleaner.

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I explained it bad. Let me explain it better. But first, this to get an infinte amount of tapping ability, AKA eat everything (no calories/nutrients), or getting cold. Not getting hot, or getting nutrients without eating.

1. Fill your metalmind as full as you want.
2. Tap it incredibly slowly. It isn't inside your body.
3. Burn aluminum.

This empties the metalmind, same as leach while tapping. Of course, one can do this by jsut moving attribute from one metalmind to another constantly, but that takes a longer time, and more concentration.

What you meant with aluminum is a way to empty a metalmind? Why??? Yes, you can do it. But you know what's better? New metalmind. One day you ming need that metalmind filled with attributes and you will regret emptying it. And that's if the metal survives burning aluminum, allomantic metals disappear, chromium gets rid of spikes and metalminds as well. So it's very likely you just destroy your metalmind filled with attributes.

[Trusk'our]

9 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Right. I explained it porly:

1. Stab a counshot, lurcher, or mistborn. I'll say coinshot for now, but it works either way.
2. Give the steel spike granting A-steel to someone.
3. Have them burn steel, so they have steelsight.
4. Stab them with a tin spike to steel the steelsight. This can be deadly.
5. Remove the steel spike from them, and give it to someone else.
6. Repeat steps 3-5 to get an infinite number of tinspikes granting steelsight from a single coinshot.
7. Repeat with gold, electrum, and bronze, possibly F-chromium or breaths in a necrosil spike.
   Alternatively, you can use an F-tin spike to tap pre-made stores (made with F-gold or F-Aluminum) to get all 4-6 of these from 1 spike.

Ah. That's actually quite clever, and should work for Steelsight.

Gold and electrum shadows are weird though; I think that they are caused more by temporarily being drawn closer to the spiritual realm (and having the experience being shaped by the specific power) rather than them being a sense of their own. 

Life Sense I think might be where your spiritual and cognitive aspects are drawn closer together, thus increasing your cognitive aspect's awareness of the spiritual aspect... doing something including but not limited to Connection.

So maybe those won't be caught by Hemalurgic tin, but we'll have to wait and see to be sure (it would be pretty OP if you could take and permanently have Allomantic Atium's shadow vision).

Quote

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

Oversleep

Could a Feruchemist hide from Lifesense by storing and which metals?

Brandon Sanderson

So Lifesense on Nalthis, someone storing, what now, Investiture? Could they hide from Lifesense? Um, yeah that would work.

Oversleep

And which metals would they need to store, Investiture, Connection…

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably be Investiture, that’s theoretically plausible, hiding your entire sense, a little bit easier with a copper cloud, which is how you would normally go about it, but you could make your Investiture vanish to the point that… yeah I think that’s theoretically possible.

Oversleep

So Lifesense works on Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Lifesense works by sensing… life, so it’s not necessarily just Connection because you can go off-world from Nalthis and still sense the life to which you are not Connected.

 

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Gold and electrum shadows are weird though; I think that they are caused more by temporarily being drawn closer to the spiritual realm (and having the experience being shaped by the specific power) rather than them being a sense of their own. 

I agree with it. Electrum and Atium shadows are the effects of Fortune, they aren't a sense, so you can't steal them. 

13 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Life Sense I think might be where your spiritual and cognitive aspects are drawn closer together, thus increasing your cognitive aspect's awareness of the spiritual aspect... doing something including but not limited to Connection.

I think Lifesense can be stolen, it can be clouded by coppercloud so it is a sense of some sort. 

Spoiler

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

For a steelsight? You are most likely killing everyone, as stealing attributes is done by spiking the heart, at least for now. And you know, it's just steelsight, not steel push. It isn't worth the trouble. If you want it, just take a steel spike (with A-iron/steel, and put it in your eye, or even an empty one like Kel have). That's much easier and cleaner.

What you meant with aluminum is a way to empty a metalmind? Why??? Yes, you can do it. But you know what's better? New metalmind. One day you ming need that metalmind filled with attributes and you will regret emptying it. And that's if the metal survives burning aluminum, allomantic metals disappear, chromium gets rid of spikes and metalminds as well. So it's very likely you just destroy your metalmind filled with attributes.

I meant a specieces. Killing a chicken via hemalurgic spike doesn't stop it from being edible. You would kill each specimin, that's why you need to move the steelspike from one specimin to another in step 5. I even mention that in step 4.
It is easier, cleaner, and requires a coinshot for each steelsight spike.

New metalmind costs money. You might want to keep the attribute, but it is still a gimick.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I agree with it. Electrum and Atium shadows are the effects of Fortune, they aren't a sense, so you can't steal them. 

I think Lifesense can be stolen, it can be clouded by coppercloud so it is a sense of some sort. 

  Reveal hidden contents

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

Isn't fortune just someone's ability to sense the spiritual realm? 

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I meant a specieces. Killing a chicken via hemalurgic spike doesn't stop it from being edible. You would kill each specimin, that's why you need to move the steelspike from one specimin to another in step 5. I even mention that in step 4.
It is easier, cleaner, and requires a coinshot for each steelsight spike.

You said nothing about different species. You can't force or teach a chicken to burn a metal, and they have to for you to steal steelsight. Moreover identity contamination - you are placing an animal's identity and soul into your spirit web, which likely won't do good for you - chimeras most likely. It's still better to spike a Coinshoter and put that spike in your eye.

And a single spike can only take attribute/power from one person, and you can have 4 spikes before exposing yourself to Harmony, and if you want more, it would cause you big issues (5 is still a limit that you can get powers from).

Spoiler

Miss_Silver

Is there a maximum number of spikes a person can have? Would having more spikes eventually cause issues, be it mental or physical limitations?

Also do the benefits from spikes have some form of diminishing returns, or could some one have like, 200 bronze spikes and be able to sense a person burning metal through copper from 50 miles away?

Brandon Sanderson

1) Yes, it would cause big issues.

2) #1 interferes greatly with what you would like to do here, but there are other ways of magnifying the powers to the extent you postulate.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

21 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

New metalmind costs money. You might want to keep the attribute, but it is still a gimick.

Taking into account the cost of aluminum in era 2, you could afford new metalminds faster than aluminum for that "trick". Most allomantic metals are just common and cheap, so no problems here. Simple ring or piercing gives you a lot of storage.

23 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Isn't fortune just someone's ability to sense the spiritual realm? 

Not only. Fortune is future vision and any kind of sensing future, which is done by looking into SR

Spoiler

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that line is mostly just me saying... *long pause* I think you're picking apart those things too much.

Chaos

Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know-- Gotta take that seriously, so.

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as-- Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text.

Chaos

That there are those are two different things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Is looking into the Spiritual Realm the only way to look into the future?

Brandon Sanderson

Any looking into the future involves looking at Spiritwebs, probability, and stuff like that. So, yes.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[Stick The Savant]

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Taking into account the cost of aluminum in era 2, you could afford new metalminds faster than aluminum for that "trick". Most allomantic metals are just common and cheap, so no problems here. Simple ring or piercing gives you a lot of storage.

to be fair, Brandon has said that aluminum would be much easier to acquire as the tech of the Cosmere progresses. aluminum will likely be easy to obtain by era 3

 

 

[Mistchemist16]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

I agree with it. Electrum and Atium shadows are the effects of Fortune, they aren't a sense, so you can't steal them. 

If they are the effects of Fortune, you CAN steal them, just not with Tin. You’d need Chromium. It also depends on whether you view Fortune as just a misleading name for one’s awareness of the Spiritual Ream and if electrum just makes you more sensible in that vein. I’d guess it does. But in that case, it means all steelsight and bronze shenanigans use F-Tin and H-Tin, while time shadows use the chromium versions.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

If they are the effects of Fortune, you CAN steal them, just not with Tin. You’d need Chromium. It also depends on whether you view Fortune as just a misleading name for one’s awareness of the Spiritual Ream and if electrum just makes you more sensible in that vein. I’d guess it does. But in that case, it means all steelsight and bronze shenanigans use F-Tin and H-Tin, while time shadows use the chromium versions.

Would that steal Atium shadows or an increased Fortune Mistborn possesses while burning Atium? Hard to say. Because future vision is powered by Atium's investiture from that Atium bead, you would likely need that to use it. With electrum it's different. And then if you can steal it, how long would it last? Burning Atium/Electrum doesn't give you permanent future vision, so stealing it shouldn't give you permanent increase of Fortune. Would your stolen Atium shadows be powered by investiture contained in that spike (which is Ruin's) until it runs out, which should be really fast, dozens of seconds at best, after which you lose that power and have an empty spike in your body? Stealing Atium/electrum shadows just generates many problems when you think about how it would work, that I don't think it works at all.

Edited March 10, 2023 by alder24

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think anyone in world really knows what Chromium Hemalurgy does anyway, and certainly we don't. "Might steal destiny." Is destiny the same as Fortune or not?

I don't think we really know what Fortune is either - it is Spiritual and has something to do with the future, and Hoid's ability to be where he needs to be is similar to Chromium Feruchemy. But we don't know details. I personally think Fortune is a kind of guided "gut instinct" of what someone needs to do - less future *sight* and more supernatural intuition - so I don't think Atium (or electrum or malatium or gold) Allomancy is really exactly Fortune, though both are Spiritual Realm related. I think the normal impure atium Allomancy we see is a constrained version of the full duralumin burst or pure-atium effect which is full sight of the Spiritual Realm and kind of transcending into the Spiritual Realm (Kelsier says in SH that even impure-atium burners are "transcending the Physical Realm").

But I could be wrong there, and Fortune could include any partial mortal perception of the Spiritual Realm's future-possibilities vision (vs a Shard's full access).

I agree that stealing atium shadows as a permanent no-metal-needed power would be really unfair.

I do wonder if someone with the right kind of Hemalurgic soul-hole might be able to perceive future things through the Spiritual 'passively', though. But maybe the soul-hole needed for that is so big it would be fatal. (Stormlight)

Spoiler

Something like the Death Rattles on Roshar.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Mistchemist16]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Would that steal Atium shadows or an increased Fortune Mistborn possesses while burning Atium? Hard to say. Because future vision is powered by Atium's investiture from that Atium bead, you would likely need that to use it. With electrum it's different. And then if you can steal it, how long would it last? Burning Atium/Electrum doesn't give you permanent future vision, so stealing it shouldn't give you permanent increase of Fortune. Would your stolen Atium shadows be powered by investiture contained in that spike (which is Ruin's) until it runs out, which should be really fast, dozens of seconds at best, after which you lose that power and have an empty spike in your body? Stealing Atium/electrum shadows just generates many problems when you think about how it would work, that I don't think it works at all.

We haven’t seen an official case of Tin Hemalurgy used for Allomantic sense, so it’s hard to say what applies. I think the subtle difference between Electrum as a gateway to Preservation vs actually burning the substance Atium is made of would cause them to differ in Hemalurgy (assuming chromium does steal Fortune at all). 

We know the Blessings of Potency grant unlimited pewter strength. If Allomancy creates a conduit to Preservation as long as the metal is burning, I think Hemlaurgy is similar to a degree. However, Hemalurgy usually steals permanent traits. For electrum, I see two outcomes, barring further hacking

1. The spike “codes” the abnormal ability on your spiritweb and you can use it infinitely like the kandra blessings. Which is far from the most broken thing if we’re talking electrum

2. Using the sense burns through the spike’s charge until it runs out, likely for no longer than you could burn the metal

Atium is probably a no go for Hemalurgy since you’re not really using that conduit in the same way: you draw power from the substance itself. More importantly, infinite Atium via one spike is definitely not happening. I’d say #2 always applies for Atium, even if #1 works for electrum

As for Feruchemy, we know Chromium stores Fortune. So if Fortune does mean Spiritual Realm awareness, then storing and Compounding should work for both types. Hemalurgy may also use Fortune since the systems are related, but they do run by separate mechanics.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

We haven’t seen an official case of Tin Hemalurgy used for Allomantic sense, so it’s hard to say what applies. I think the subtle difference between Electrum as a gateway to Preservation vs actually burning the substance Atium is made of would cause them to differ in Hemalurgy (assuming chromium does steal Fortune at all). 

We know the Blessings of Potency grant unlimited pewter strength. If Allomancy creates a conduit to Preservation as long as the metal is burning, I think Hemlaurgy is similar to a degree. However, Hemalurgy usually steals permanent traits. For electrum, I see two outcomes, barring further hacking

1. The spike “codes” the abnormal ability on your spiritweb and you can use it infinitely like the kandra blessings. Which is far from the most broken thing if we’re talking electrum

2. Using the sense burns through the spike’s charge until it runs out, likely for no longer than you could burn the metal

Atium is probably a no go for Hemalurgy since you’re not really using that conduit in the same way: you draw power from the substance itself. More importantly, infinite Atium via one spike is definitely not happening. I’d say #2 always applies for Atium, even if #1 works for electrum

As for Feruchemy, we know Chromium stores Fortune. So if Fortune does mean Spiritual Realm awareness, then storing and Compounding should work for both types. Hemalurgy may also use Fortune since the systems are related, but they do run by separate mechanics.

Good point on Blessings. But that would require to prepere spike like for a Blessing, so few more unknown steps are required. Only Harmony knows how to do it. 

But this gave me an idea - what if Blessings are made by stealing Allomantic granted attributes? Like you said, Potency steals pewter attributes, Awareness steals tin senses. But Stability and Presence don't really fit it.

[Mistchemist16]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But this gave me an idea - what if Blessings are made by stealing Allomantic granted attributes? Like you said, Potency steals pewter attributes, Awareness steals tin senses. But Stability and Presence don't really fit it.

What exactly do you mean by “Allomantic granted attributes”? Are you specifically referring to the temporary boost gained from the relevant powers, like spiking strength from a Pewterarm burning pewter? You could probably do that with a spike, though you may or may not need further hacking. But I believe kandra Blessings are just Hemalurgic spikes of the appropriate types inserted into bind points with proper Intent.

The part I think is key to understanding Hemalurgy is that everything stolen is somewhat permanent. Either an Invested Art like Allomancy and Feruchemy or a core attribute. They are all attached to one’s spiritweb. So you might need to rewire Allomantically granted abilites so that they keep refilling when spiked. I reccomend using F-Tin for senses and F-Pewter for strength

As for the mental attributes, the closest things we see are the mental Feruchemical metals + electrum. Allomancy doesn’t have them because it has the external emotion affecting metals (zinc, brass) and the internal metals related to sensing Investuture (bronze copper).  Stablility and Presence do fit in a more restorative way. They are mental attributes stored by zinc and copper, which are also taken from a person directly. I do adore the groupings of the Allomantic metals, even if there are a few bugs (F-Brass and some Atium stuff)

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

What exactly do you mean by “Allomantic granted attributes”? Are you specifically referring to the temporary boost gained from the relevant powers, like spiking strength from a Pewterarm burning pewter? You could probably do that with a spike, though you may or may not need further hacking.

Yes, like strength gained from burning/tapping pewter. It might be possible to steal those things without stealing the attribute, in the same way you can store them (I think there was WoB on that, I can't find it now).

14 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

But I believe kandra Blessings are just Hemalurgic spikes of the appropriate types inserted into bind points with proper Intent.

They are, but I doubt they are not made in the same way Koloss spikes are. There is something more to it. If it was just that easy, why only the Lord Ruler prepared spikes for Kandra in secrecy? Kandra don't know how to make them, and they are different from Koloss spikes.

Spoiler

Questioner

What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent.

Questioner

What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon.

Questioner 2

That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing.

Brandon Sanderson

You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences.

But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

14 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

The part I think is key to understanding Hemalurgy is that everything stolen is somewhat permanent. Either an Invested Art like Allomancy and Feruchemy or a core attribute. They are all attached to one’s spiritweb. So you might need to rewire Allomantically granted abilites so that they keep refilling when spiked. I reccomend using F-Tin for senses and F-Pewter for strength

I know this, that's why I don't like the idea of stealing attributes gained by Allomancy/Feruchemy, as those attributes are only temporary,

 

But I found a WoB that mostly kills this thought of mine:

Spoiler

Questioner

With the hemalurgy, I was a bit confused on how it worked on people and how it worked for kandra, there was the blessings, and one brought them more stability of mind or something. So what is different for kandra than it is for other people?

Brandon Sanderson

The things that are building kandra have ripped off different pieces of souls. Rather than stealing someone else's Allomancy, most of those were just created with regular people. The same way that a koloss... you don't need an Allomancer to make a koloss. You just take a regular person, you rip off a piece of their soul, and you staple it to someone else's, and basically screw up their Spiritual DNA, and you have a koloss. But stapling on someone's Allomancy requires an Allomancer.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

Notice the use of "most of them" not "all of them". So some Kandra Blessings could be made out of Metalborns. And I hope that's not just the Bleeder spike.