Bands of Mourning in light of TLM

[therunner he/him]

Sometime ago I proposed a theory that Bands of Mourning are not medallions granting all powers, but instead only nicrosil minds storing Mists
Full theory can be read here, the main evidence is that 1) Users of Bands trail Mists (which only Vin exhibited when drawing the in)  and that 2) effect of tapping it sounds very much like what Vin described whan drawing in Mists

After TLM I think there is a bit more evidence for the theory

1. Wax speculates that it is impossible to create allomancy granting medallions (and indeed that creation of medallions is more limited than assumed).
   • This would make BoM more of an outlier, if they are a medallion. Containing just Mists would circumvent this.
2. Kelsier is not Fullborn as was speculated, so there is no obvious way he could have created BoM.
   • Additionally, he is trying to regain his powers so if he did create BoM he has little reason to just leave them.
   • Even if he could not gain powers himself, he has reason to keep them on hand for emergencies, like with purified Dor.
3. BoM provides enhanced allomancy. This was speculated to be result of nicrosil compounding, however in TLM we see allomancers fueled by raw Investiture and they reach similar power levels. So strength of BoM could have been simply result of holding raw Investiture in form of Mists.
4. Edit: This one dates to BoM book, however Wax mentions that Investiture stores in Bands are getting low (i.e. F-Nicrosil). Since Medallions use F-Nicrosil like Coppermind (discrete, returns when stored, not cosumed), this implies that whatever is in BoM F-Nicrosil mind is more 'continuous' then a discrete power. If what is stored is bunch of raw Investiture like Mists, that line makes more sense IMHO.

 

 

Additionally I would propose that BoM were created by Harmony directly, some time before he became too restricted to act. He then used Kandra (Ten-Soon) to impersonate Kelsier, and spread legend of them in the South.

Edited March 22, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

Hmm, I always assumed that the Mist leaking was because of how saturated with investiture are the Bands - just like Nightblood is leaking them, however Bands are more "perfect" vessel, so when Marasi draws "everything at once" she fills herself and thus Investiture is leaking in form of Mists. But your comparison to Stormlight leaking and the human body being an imperfect container does make sense.

However the Bands can't contain just Mist. Nicrosilmind must contain abilities to use all Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, otherwise Mist won't give you anything. So at the very least Nicrosil must store some normal type attribute.

Moreover, we don't know if you can store this kind of investiture in nicrosil. All we know right now is that nicrosil stores the ability to use invested arts, not investiture itself,  the only known example of other type of investiture being stored inside is Returned Breath, but regular Breaths or Stormlight are still unknown

However this idea is still quite well made, and makes sense. It could be like this, and it would be a great way to cheat the system, and remain uncought. Kelsier's style.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Kelsier is not Fullborn as was speculated, so there is no obvious way he could have created BoM.

• Additionally, he is trying to regain his powers so if he did create BoM he has little reason to just leave them.
• Even if he could not gain powers himself, he has reason to keep them on hand for emergencies, like with purified Dor.

Personally I believe less and less that it was Kelsier that placed the Bands in that temple. I think they might get stolen from him, maybe even by Harmony, to prevent unrestricted Fullborn powers from spreading among people. It doesn't make sense why he would put the Bands so far away, if he keeps purified Dor closeby It could also explain how ReLuur found them so easily, as he might be the person that put them there in the first place. The only real argument in Kelsier's favor is that he wanted to speed up first contact between Malwish and the Basin, thus leading to technological progress and arms race. However his goal is to popularize metal arts among people, give them powers, and hiding the Bands in the middle of nowhere is the exact opposite of this.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Additionally I would propose that BoM were created by Harmony directly, some time before he became too restricted to act. He then used Kandra (Ten-Soon) to impersonate Kelsier, and spread legend of them in the South.

I disagree, Harmony acts to restrict the powers of Fullborn, and I doubt he would create such a thing and risk creating a new Rashek.

[therunner he/him]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

However the Bands can't contain just Mist. Nicrosilmind must contain abilities to use all Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, otherwise Mist won't give you anything. So at the very least Nicrosil must store some normal type attribute.

Well spoted weak point of the theory

The only thing I can offer is that Mists being power of Harmony can provide even non-Mistborn/non-Feruchemist access to those abilities temporarily. (sort of like how Honorblades grant access to Surges) Or, if Harmony created them, he did something like mimicking Honorblades , but being unpracticed (since it would have to be done soon after Ascending) created a much more powerful artifact.

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Moreover, we don't know if you can store this kind of investiture in nicrosil. All we know right now is that nicrosil stores the ability to use invested arts, not investiture itself,  the only known example of other type of investiture being stored inside is Returned Breath, but regular Breaths or Stormlight are still unknown

Another good counterpoint.
We got only RAFO on those questions, so we will have to wait and see.

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However this idea is still quite well made, and makes sense. It could be like this, and it would be a great way to cheat the system, and remain uncought. Kelsier's style.

Cheating the system was additional motivation, brute forcing stuff is not exactly Kelsier's (or his crew's) style.

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Personally I believe less and less that it was Kelsier that placed the Bands in that temple. I think they might get stolen from him, maybe even by Harmony, to prevent unrestricted Fullborn powers from spreading among people. It doesn't make sense why he would put the Bands so far away, if he keeps purified Dor closeby It could also explain how ReLuur found them so easily, as he might be the person that put them there in the first place. The only real argument in Kelsier's favor is that he wanted to speed up first contact between Malwish and the Basin, thus leading to technological progress and arms race. However his goal is to popularize metal arts among people, give them powers, and hiding the Bands in the middle of nowhere is the exact opposite of this.

Yeah, I don't think it makes sense for it to be Kelsier, or really anyone associated with Ghostbloods.
And he lacks the means to create artifact like that (because if he could, he would be making more)

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I disagree, Harmony acts to restrict the powers of Fullborn, and I doubt he would create such a thing and risk creating a new Rashek.

Where are you taking that from? I am not aware of Harmony restricting Fullborns.
The fact that they are not born is just effect of allomancy and feruchemy mixing in population (as far as I know), in principle possible just extremely unlikely.

I think it must have been Harmony for the following reasons (extending on the above)

• The only entity on Scadrial we know of possessing sufficient power and knowledge to create Bands.
• If they are fueled by Mists, then Harmony is the only entity with definite power over them.
• If Bands work like Honorblades, it makes sense that Harmony created them (possibly partially on accident)
  • In light of this Medallions would be mimicking what Bands do, in a similar way to what Shardblades do for Honorblades. And since all of Cosmere operates on similar principles, it would be natural analogy . (usage of regular Invested metal instead of Godmetal being necessity due to nature of Ettmetal).

 

Finally, if Harmony was worried about Fullborn dominating Southerns, then it would make sense he would create artifact that could help them counter that. Then it would have been Harmony who would arrange for the Bands to get stolen, since he never intended them for Northerners to begin with. Since Kandra still obey him, he could have asked them to drain the Bands, and then arrange the hand off to Malwish.

Edited March 5, 2023 by therunner

[ScadrianTank he/him]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:04 AM, therunner said:

Additionally, he is trying to regain his powers so if he did create BoM he has little reason to just leave them.

You assume he doesn't have a copy. The Ghostbloods still think that Kel has powers. And the easiest way to keep up that lie is to use powers.

On 3/4/2023 at 10:04 AM, therunner said:

Additionally I would propose that BoM were created by Harmony directly, some time before he became too restricted to act.

I like to think that Kel made them with help from Spook and some Full Feruchemist. Mostly because I love the idea of a Full Feruchemist being one of the founding members of the Ghostbloods.

Someone on the Shardcast also proposed that Kel had powers but was slowly losing them and the Bands were an attempt to mitigate that. IIRC, the reasoning for it was that we now have a precedent for people briefly gaining powers - so might as well account for the possibility.

Something I only just realized is that we don't know if the Bands allow for Compounding or even storing attributes. Before TLM, I always assumed that they actually made one a Fullborn. But now they could just as well be a big battery charged with powers.

I still think that the Bands either allow for burning metals - and consequently Feruchemical storage - unlike regular medallions, or if you're correct that the powers come pre-keyed if that makes sense. By that I mean not keyed to a specific effect, not purified. Maybe coded would be a better term, like how the Set were trying to code a Metallic art into their new spike. It's strange to me that raw power would automatically convert to specific effects.

If the powers - and maybe the attributes - are already keyed to an effect, then the Bands might be charged with purified Dor. In this case, keying/coding it to specific effects would either convert it to Preservation's Investiture or just make it look and act like it.

Edited March 5, 2023 by ScadrianTank

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

The only thing I can offer is that Mists being power of Harmony can provide even non-Mistborn/non-Feruchemist access to those abilities temporarily. (sort of like how Honorblades grant access to Surges) Or, if Harmony created them, he did something like mimicking Honorblades , but being unpracticed (since it would have to be done soon after Ascending) created a much more powerful artifact.

I don't think so, Honorblades work very similar to medallions, as they're Identity-free and give powers to everyone. While Honorblades provide surges and powers, those come from the connection to the blades themselves, but the investiture (Stormlight) used to come from Honor directly. However, now Honor is dead, and all users of Jezrien's Honorblade had to provide their own Stormlight (which doesn't mean they can't draw from Honor directly if they know it's possible).

Spoiler

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Where are you taking that from? I am not aware of Harmony restricting Fullborns.
The fact that they are not born is just effect of allomancy and feruchemy mixing in population (as far as I know), in principle possible just extremely unlikely.

It's a speculation on my part. Firstly Sazed, Twindyll and all Terrismen were all ashamed that The Lord Ruler was a Terrisman. This shame is present among Terris in era 2 as well, to the point of them wanting to keep their blood pure and looking down on Allomancy. Secondly, he knows very well how dangerous a Fullborn can be, and how little can be done to oppose him - he himself is trapped by his powers and the most he would be able to do is to guide and send people like Wax to try to stop a Fullborn, which has little to no chance of success. Then there is his epilogue conversation with Kelsier, in which Kel argues that they need metalborns. It's not that he restrict them, it's that he could do more and even give those powers to people (especially during Catacendre, he could make several people into Mistborn/Feruchemist to kickstart a new line of potent metalborn, he did that only to Spook, he restrict the knowledge of Hemalurgy to the point of not allowing new generation of Kandra to be born, and makes Kollos reuse old spikes - but this is Hemalurgy). What I get from this is that Sazed is afraid of giving more powers to people and thus wouldn't want to create an artifact that gives unlimited Fullborn powers to everyone that has them, risking it getting into wrong hands, like Set.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

• The only entity on Scadrial we know of possessing sufficient power and knowledge to create Bands.

Kelsier ascended to Preservation, he could also have that knowledge. Moreover he is also the one that introduced medallions to Malwish, and Spook is the one that experimented with Hemalurgy. They both could have enough knowledge to create them. 

If creating the Bands requires you to permanently give your powers into nicrosilminds, and compounding them only makes them stronger, not multiplies them so you can't get them back, then it can explain why they didn't create more of them, as they had only 1 set of powers in the first place to give into the Bands.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

• If they are fueled by Mists, then Harmony is the only entity with definite power over them.

Why he has control over them, this isn't necessary at all, as Mists can work like a Stormlight if properly used. Bands might give you enough connection to Harmony due to duraluminmind, to allow you to use the Mist for fuel like you propose. Or it isn't necessary at all once Mists are stored in the Band. Storing Mists is a problem, as someone needs to first draw them in, and this can be done by establishing strong connection to Harmony via F-duralumin. But once they have Mists in their body, and assuming they can be stored in nicrosil, they can just do it and later use them without connection.

Vin could draw Mists in as she had very strong connection to Preservation. So only this is required in the first place.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Finally, if Harmony was worried about Fullborn dominating Southerns, then it would make sense he would create artifact that could help them counter that. Then it would have been Harmony who would arrange for the Bands to get stolen, since he never intended them for Northerners to begin with. Since Kandra still obey him, he could have asked them to drain the Bands, and then arrange the hand off to Malwish.

I can get behind the idea that it was Harmony that orchestrated the Bands to get back to Malwish.

43 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I like to think that Kel made them with help from Spook and some Full Feruchemist. Mostly because I love the idea of a Full Feruchemist being one of the founding members.

I also like this idea, and there is even a WoB from The Hero of Ages Annotations that Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-Two

The Last Feruchemist?

Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler tried for a long time to breed Feruchemy out of the population, and it's highly unlikely that now the power would simply vanish because the living Feruchemists were killed. The genetic trait is still there, suppressed in the population, but it would eventually resurface.

That's not to say that the loss of the Synod wasn't a blow. That many living Feruchemists suddenly killed would wipe out a large segment of the population who could have bred Feruchemy true. However, the fact that many of the Synod were eunuchs made their usefulness in that regard less important.

Remember, however, that Sazed is struggling with depression. It's easier for him to see things in a depressing light than it is to see them in a positive light.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 8, 2009)

 

[therunner he/him]

On 05/03/2023 at 0:33 PM, ScadrianTank said:

You assume he doesn't have a copy. The Ghostbloods still think that Kel has powers. And the easiest way to keep up that lie is to use powers.

If he would have copy, why not use it in TLM? He was releasing purified Dor which was treated as a big threshold.
With Bands he could have possibly traveled over water as well (store nearly all weight, and drop coins to push off) to get back soon.

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I like to think that Kel made them with help from Spook and some Full Feruchemist. Mostly because I love the idea of a Full Feruchemist being one of the founding members of the Ghostbloods.

Someone on the Shardcast also proposed that Kel had powers but was slowly losing them and the Bands were an attempt to mitigate that. IIRC, the reasoning for it was that we now have a precedent for people briefly gaining powers - so might as well account for the possibility.

But why would he then hide them away in some temple?
Kel seems to be gathering powers/artifacts not hiding them away.

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Something I only just realized is that we don't know if the Bands allow for Compounding or even storing attributes. Before TLM, I always assumed that they actually made one a Fullborn. But now they could just as well be a big battery charged with powers.

That is another thing, I don't think they can allow Compounding. Hemalurgy can no longer grant it, nor can Medallions then (much less Invasive, but also then less deep method of getting powers), and so I don't see a way for Bands to let that happen.

It seems that only natural born Compounders are possibility by Era 2.

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I still think that the Bands either allow for burning metals - and consequently Feruchemical storage - unlike regular medallions, or if you're correct that the powers come pre-keyed if that makes sense. By that I mean not keyed to a specific effect, not purified. Maybe coded would be a better term, like how the Set were trying to code a Metallic art into their new spike. It's strange to me that raw power would automatically convert to specific effects.

That is why I posited they are something along the lines of Honorblade, only made by Harmony.
And they are filled up with Mists to provide power source, since Harmony cannot act as freely as Honor could (who fueled Heralds directly).

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If the powers - and maybe the attributes - are already keyed to an effect, then the Bands might be charged with purified Dor. In this case, keying/coding it to specific effects would either convert it to Preservation's Investiture or just make it look and act like it.

I don't think it would convert Dor to Preservation's Investiture (I don't think that is possible at all, only corrupting Investiture), but I do think Dor could fuel someone wielding Bands.

On 05/03/2023 at 1:20 PM, alder24 said:

I don't think so, Honorblades work very similar to medallions, as they're Identity-free and give powers to everyone. While Honorblades provide surges and powers, those come from the connection to the blades themselves, but the investiture (Stormlight) used to come from Honor directly. However, now Honor is dead, and all users of Jezrien's Honorblade had to provide their own Stormlight (which doesn't mean they can't draw from Honor directly if they know it's possible).

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

Well Bands work similar to Medallions too, and give power to anyone.
The only difference would be that instead of Harmony powering the user directly (like in Honorblades), he would have pre-charged them with Mists (since Harmony is restricted much more than other Shards).

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It's a speculation on my part. Firstly Sazed, Twindyll and all Terrismen were all ashamed that The Lord Ruler was a Terrisman. This shame is present among Terris in era 2 as well, to the point of them wanting to keep their blood pure and looking down on Allomancy. Secondly, he knows very well how dangerous a Fullborn can be, and how little can be done to oppose him - he himself is trapped by his powers and the most he would be able to do is to guide and send people like Wax to try to stop a Fullborn, which has little to no chance of success. Then there is his epilogue conversation with Kelsier, in which Kel argues that they need metalborns. It's not that he restrict them, it's that he could do more and even give those powers to people (especially during Catacendre, he could make several people into Mistborn/Feruchemist to kickstart a new line of potent metalborn, he did that only to Spook, he restrict the knowledge of Hemalurgy to the point of not allowing new generation of Kandra to be born, and makes Kollos reuse old spikes - but this is Hemalurgy). What I get from this is that Sazed is afraid of giving more powers to people and thus wouldn't want to create an artifact that gives unlimited Fullborn powers to everyone that has them, risking it getting into wrong hands, like Set.

All good points and fair.

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Kelsier ascended to Preservation, he could also have that knowledge. Moreover he is also the one that introduced medallions to Malwish, and Spook is the one that experimented with Hemalurgy. They both could have enough knowledge to create them. 

True. However it then opens a question of why Malwish medallions are so limited compared to Bands?
I.e. seemingly cannot grant allomancy, cannot fit more then 3 powers, cannot compound, etc.

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If creating the Bands requires you to permanently give your powers into nicrosilminds, and compounding them only makes them stronger, not multiplies them so you can't get them back, then it can explain why they didn't create more of them, as they had only 1 set of powers in the first place to give into the Bands.

Good point.

 

[alder24]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

True. However it then opens a question of why Malwish medallions are so limited compared to Bands?
I.e. seemingly cannot grant allomancy, cannot fit more then 3 powers, cannot compound, etc.

Different use of nicrosinlminds. In medallions they work like coppermind, and the attribute is not drained, while in the Bands it was noted by Wax that the attribute is being used up.

Spoiler

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

Kelsier spent some time ruling over Malwish as a Sovereign, and during that time he developed the Bands (according to Allik). So it's possible that he used his knowledge of creating medallions, solved problems with stacking more powers and created the Bands. But there are far too many unknowns. I wish TLM would have given us something more about medallions, especially how they are created, and how that nicrosil portion of them works, that everyone can tap them.

Spoiler

Questioner

So nicrosil.  Wax couldn’t use a blank gold metalmind because he’s not a gold ferring, why can he use a blank nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

So this will all come out eventually but the idea is there are certain ways to connect yourself to magic, to hack the magic and make it think you have the Spiritual DNA that you don’t actually have.  And this is one of the ways.

Questioner

So then the people who made this medallion have this thing that a regular nicrosil Ferring couldn’t--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you’re picking up on it. We’ll dig deeper into it as the series progresses.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[therunner he/him]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Different use of nicrosinlminds. In medallions they work like coppermind, and the attribute is not drained, while in the Bands it was noted by Wax that the attribute is being used up.

  Reveal hidden contents

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

Or the running out is also possibility if they store Mists, which would get used up.
But good counterpoint.

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Kelsier spent some time ruling over Malwish as a Sovereign, and during that time he developed the Bands (according to Allik). So it's possible that he used his knowledge of creating medallions, solved problems with stacking more powers and created the Bands. But there are far too many unknowns. I wish TLM would have given us something more about medallions, especially how they are created, and how that nicrosil portion of them works, that everyone can tap them.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So nicrosil.  Wax couldn’t use a blank gold metalmind because he’s not a gold ferring, why can he use a blank nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

So this will all come out eventually but the idea is there are certain ways to connect yourself to magic, to hack the magic and make it think you have the Spiritual DNA that you don’t actually have.  And this is one of the ways.

Questioner

So then the people who made this medallion have this thing that a regular nicrosil Ferring couldn’t--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you’re picking up on it. We’ll dig deeper into it as the series progresses.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

I don't think Allik states anything like that, only that Sovereign ruled them for a time.
And why would Kelsier not share some of his findings with them? Even just how to store allomancy for example?

And if he created them there, then Spook could not have been involved in their creation, since he ruled over the Basin for nearly ~80 years.

I think the Medallions work like 'artifical' spren to extent, the Medallion has some Identity (which is what allows users to keep storing/tapping even when sleeping).
So the Nicrosil portion sort of gives power to that fake soul, which then connects to the spiritweb of the user.

Edit: Though I see there is WoB that Sovereign was involved in BoM creation, though there is also one that RAFOs whether Kelsier created them. Tension.

Edited March 7, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

I don't think Allik states anything like that, only that Sovereign ruled them for a time.

BoM ch 21, he said he ruled them, he was able to create the Band (but I think it isn't specified that it was during his rule), and took them with him.

20 minutes ago, therunner said:

And why would Kelsier not share some of his findings with them? Even just how to store allomancy for example?

Either because someone stole them from him, or because they require to give up powers into them permanently, or he realized that they are so powerful, that it's better not to have more than one without control, or he wanted to use them to force the Basin and Malwish to met, so the conflict between them over the Bands can start, leading to innovation. No idea, too many options, too much unknown.

23 minutes ago, therunner said:

And if he created them there, then Spook could not have been involved in their creation, since he ruled over the Basin for nearly ~80 years.

They can travel? Use Marsh as a messenger? Leave for a few weeks to “conduct an important business”?

25 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think the Medallions work like 'artifical' spren to extent, the Medallion has some Identity (which is what allows users to keep storing/tapping even when sleeping).
So the Nicrosil portion sort of gives power to that fake soul, which then connects to the spiritweb of the user.

Some identity? No, I think they are fully identityless, but there is something going on with connection as well, like they form connection with their wearers somehow? Creating medallions do involve F-duralumin, so they could be closer to Honorblades than I thought

Spoiler

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

[therunner he/him]

 

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

BoM ch 21, he said he ruled them, he was able to create the Band (but I think it isn't specified that it was during his rule), and took them with him.

Ah, thanks.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They can travel? Use Marsh as a messenger? Leave for a few weeks to “conduct an important business”?

Much more then weeks, at the time they did not have trains, nor powered flight nor powered ships.
Based on the sizes the trip to Malwish would be months one way.

It is possible, but feels a stretch to me.

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Either because someone stole them from him, or because they require to give up powers into them permanently, or he realized that they are so powerful, that it's better not to have more than one without control, or he wanted to use them to force the Basin and Malwish to met, so the conflict between them over the Bands can start, leading to innovation. No idea, too many options, too much unknown.

Fair, but still, why not at least share how to store allomancy?
That one would not lead to overly powerful effects, nor would be too dangerous.

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Some identity? No, I think they are fully identityless, but there is something going on with connection as well, like they form connection with their wearers somehow? Creating medallions do involve F-duralumin, so they could be closer to Honorblades than I thought

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how.

Questioner

Because I was pretty confused about the Investiture and Spiritweb...

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the reason I'm kind of hesitant of this, [why not you just RAFO this one right now], but it is not a RAFO, because it is like it's a secret. I want to write it out exactly how it happens, because I have it in my notes in bullet points and it's complicated, right? Cause I want some of the things in the magic system as be as complicated as for instance explaining how a computer works right now. You can do it, but you know...I want the magic to start getting that technical if that makes sense. When you say "involve", right, that's a big word. Why just don't you let me, after lost metal...if I haven't released it, you have permission to come to me and say: "Brandon, you said you would release this, you haven't yet [...]" and I will give to you the bullet point flowchart of how you build the unkeyed metalminds.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

Thanks for the WoB on F-duralumin, I could not recall it.

And no, medallions do have Identity, which is what allows tapping/storing when asleep

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Raddatatta

In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

And Honorblades also have Identity, and are self-aware

Spoiler

Fluffy (paraphrased)

When the Five Scholars traveled to Roshar, this happened post Recreance, so most Shardblades would have been dead, how did Nightblood gain sapience?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shardblades weren’t the only Blades around that were active, there were Honorblades. Honorblades are self-aware, but do not manifest a spren in the Cognitive Realm.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 15, 2022)

 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Fair, but still, why not at least share how to store allomancy?
That one would not lead to overly powerful effects, nor would be too dangerous.

Then he would be like Harmony and gave away all knowledge to them, which would in consequence limit their own progression. But so soon after Catacendre I don't think the consequences of this were visible. So no idea.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

And no, medallions do have Identity, which is what allows tapping/storing when asleep

And Honorblades also have Identity, and are self-aware

I forgot about that WoB. I was thinking you were referring to someone else's identity. But if medallions have their own identity, not keyed to anybody, that could work nicely. It seems they are much closer to Honorblades than I thought.

[Stick The Savant]

Yes, I could see harmony being inspired by Roshar. This also explains why the would be empty after spending years in caves. Heck since the bands were at the entrance of the temple, they probably had ample opportunities to recharge up there

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Quote

Different use of nicrosinlminds. In medallions they work like coppermind, and the attribute is not drained, while in the Bands it was noted by Wax that the attribute is being used up.

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Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

 

Or the running out is also possibility if they store Mists, which would get used up.
 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:20 AM, alder24 said:

I don't think so, Honorblades work very similar to medallions, as they're Identity-free and give powers to everyone. While Honorblades provide surges and powers, those come from the connection to the blades themselves, but the investiture (Stormlight) used to come from Honor directly. However, now Honor is dead, and all users of Jezrien's Honorblade had to provide their own Stormlight (which doesn't mean they can't draw from Honor directly if they know it's possible).

  Hide contents

Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

It's a speculation on my part. Firstly Sazed, Twindyll and all Terrismen were all ashamed that The Lord Ruler was a Terrisman. This shame is present among Terris in era 2 as well, to the point of them wanting to keep their blood pure and looking down on Allomancy. Secondly, he knows very well how dangerous a Fullborn can be, and how little can be done to oppose him - he himself is trapped by his powers and the most he would be able to do is to guide and send people like Wax to try to stop a Fullborn, which has little to no chance of success. Then there is his epilogue conversation with Kelsier, in which Kel argues that they need metalborns. It's not that he restrict them, it's that he could do more and even give those powers to people (especially during Catacendre, he could make several people into Mistborn/Feruchemist to kickstart a new line of potent metalborn, he did that only to Spook, he restrict the knowledge of Hemalurgy to the point of not allowing new generation of Kandra to be born, and makes Kollos reuse old spikes - but this is Hemalurgy). What I get from this is that Sazed is afraid of giving more powers to people and thus wouldn't want to create an artifact that gives unlimited Fullborn powers to everyone that has them, risking it getting into wrong hands, like Set.

Kelsier ascended to Preservation, he could also have that knowledge. Moreover he is also the one that introduced medallions to Malwish, and Spook is the one that experimented with Hemalurgy. They both could have enough knowledge to create them. 

If creating the Bands requires you to permanently give your powers into nicrosilminds, and compounding them only makes them stronger, not multiplies them so you can't get them back, then it can explain why they didn't create more of them, as they had only 1 set of powers in the first place to give into the Bands.

Why he has control over them, this isn't necessary at all, as Mists can work like a Stormlight if properly used. Bands might give you enough connection to Harmony due to duraluminmind, to allow you to use the Mist for fuel like you propose. Or it isn't necessary at all once Mists are stored in the Band. Storing Mists is a problem, as someone needs to first draw them in, and this can be done by establishing strong connection to Harmony via F-duralumin. But once they have Mists in their body, and assuming they can be stored in nicrosil, they can just do it and later use them without connection.

Vin could draw Mists in as she had very strong connection to Preservation. So only this is required in the first place.

I can get behind the idea that it was Harmony that orchestrated the Bands to get back to Malwish.

I also like this idea, and there is even a WoB from The Hero of Ages Annotations that Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist.

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Twenty-Two

The Last Feruchemist?

Sazed is likely not the last Feruchemist. The Lord Ruler tried for a long time to breed Feruchemy out of the population, and it's highly unlikely that now the power would simply vanish because the living Feruchemists were killed. The genetic trait is still there, suppressed in the population, but it would eventually resurface.

That's not to say that the loss of the Synod wasn't a blow. That many living Feruchemists suddenly killed would wipe out a large segment of the population who could have bred Feruchemy true. However, the fact that many of the Synod were eunuchs made their usefulness in that regard less important.

Remember, however, that Sazed is struggling with depression. It's easier for him to see things in a depressing light than it is to see them in a positive light.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 8, 2009)

 

There are feruchemist - ferrings. I agree we will probably see another full feruchemist, but I think this annotation is likely referring to ferrings.

2 hours ago, Stick The Savant said:

Yes, I could see harmony being inspired by Roshar. This also explains why the would be empty after spending years in caves. Heck since the bands were at the entrance of the temple, they probably had ample opportunities to recharge up there

 

I like the idea that being in the mists recharges them.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

There are feruchemist - ferrings. I agree we will probably see another full feruchemist, but I think this annotation is likely referring to ferrings.

No, he is clearly talking about a full Feruchemist, as Sazed struggled with the idea that he is the last Feruchemist alive. Ferrings are the effect of Feruchemical genes mixing with Allomantic genes, and breaking apart.

Spoiler

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one Feruchemical power, when all previous Feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemy genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
Alloy of Law Seattle Signing (Nov. 11, 2011)

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, he is clearly talking about a full Feruchemist, as Sazed struggled with the idea that he is the last Feruchemist alive. Ferrings are the effect of Feruchemical genes mixing with Allomantic genes, and breaking apart.

  Hide contents

Travyl (paraphrased)

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one Feruchemical power, when all previous Feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? 

WetlanderNW (paraphrased)

Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemy genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law.

Footnote: Brandon's response was very enthusiastic. He noted how perceptive the question was, and obviously enjoyed the discussion. The reporter has expressed their regret at lack of an audio recording to share his enthusiasm.
Alloy of Law Seattle Signing (Nov. 11, 2011)

 

I know this, and ferrings existed before Rashek was born (but rare). I don't see how he was clearly referencing a full feruchemist, would you explain?

[alder24]

Just now, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I know this, and ferrings existed before Rashek was born (but rare). I don't see how he was clearly referencing a full feruchemist, would you explain?

Because that's The Hero of Ages Annotations, the existence of Ferrings was unknown to us back then, and Brandon is using the term "Feruchemist" which means having all Feruchemical powers, and is referring to Synod and Feruchemists that were part of it.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

Just now, alder24 said:

Because that's The Hero of Ages Annotations, the existence of Ferrings was unknown to us back then, and Brandon is using the term "Feruchemist" which means having all Feruchemical powers, and is referring to Synod and Feruchemists that were part of it.

You mean because of the capital F? I never noticed wether feruchemist was capitalized or not when referring to ferrings.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

You mean because of the capital F? I never noticed wether feruchemist was capitalized or not when referring to ferrings.

Feruchemist and Feruchemy and Allomancer and Allomancy, and Ferrings and Mistings,  are always capitalized in books because they are names. This is the rule of English. We are just lazy and write them with small letters.

Feruchemist means somebody with all Feruchemical powers, while Ferring is only with one. But again, we are just lazy on the forum and we use Feruchemist for someone with 1 power. But not books, not Brandon. 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I remember reading Feruchemist in relation to Ferring, I'll have to look back and see if I'm remembering incorrectly.

[alder24]

31 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I remember reading Feruchemist in relation to Ferring, I'll have to look back and see if I'm remembering incorrectly.

I think it was sometimes used in era 2 to refer to those who have any Feruchemical power, including Ferrings. Full Feruchemist was also used. 

[drunkenbotanist]

On 3/4/2023 at 3:04 AM, therunner said:

Sometime ago I proposed a theory that Bands of Mourning are not medallions granting all powers, but instead only nicrosil minds storing Mists
Full theory can be read here, the main evidence is that 1) Users of Bands trail Mists (which only Vin exhibited when drawing the in)  and that 2) effect of tapping it sounds very much like what Vin described whan drawing in Mists

After TLM I think there is a bit more evidence for the theory

1. Wax speculates that it is impossible to create allomancy granting medallions (and indeed that creation of medallions is more limited than assumed).
   • This would make BoM more of an outlier, if they are a medallion. Containing just Mists would circumvent this.
2. Kelsier is not Fullborn as was speculated, so there is no obvious way he could have created BoM.
   • Additionally, he is trying to regain his powers so if he did create BoM he has little reason to just leave them.
   • Even if he could not gain powers himself, he has reason to keep them on hand for emergencies, like with purified Dor.
3. BoM provides enhanced allomancy. This was speculated to be result of nicrosil compounding, however in TLM we see allomancers fueled by raw Investiture and they reach similar power levels. So strength of BoM could have been simply result of holding raw Investiture in form of Mists.

Additionally I would propose that BoM were created by Harmony directly, some time before he became too restricted to act. He then used Kandra (Ten-Soon) to impersonate Kelsier, and spread legend of them in the South.

The bands storing mist somehow is another reason why they could have been places outside and why they are completely drained in TLM 

 

It's not perfect, because "well how do they draw in mist on their own" but some people have speculated about the bands in a way that could work for that

Or maybe that specific location was special for attracting the mists...maybe it was where Sazed ascended, moved around a bit. 

 

[therunner he/him]

Additional point added to OP.

[cometaryorbit]

This is a really interesting theory, and there's definitely something very special about the Bands. They're not just "a medallion with 32 powers" or "32 medallions forged together".

The discrete nature of medallion Investiture vs the Bands' Investiture "running low" definitely shows they're different things.

 The discrete thing is interesting in itself.  WoB compares it to a coppermind's memories, which are also discrete... but if you tap a coppermind and then break contact with it, the memory stays in your head. You have to actively store again to put the memory back into the coppermind.

Medallions don't work like that. You can't just tap the power and drop the Medallion and now be a permanent Brass Ferring or whatever.

Anyway, something's different about the Bands. I don't know if it's Mist or storing Kinetic Investiture of the powers rather than the Innate Investiture (like storing Steelpushing vs the ability to Steelpush), but something.

On 3/7/2023 at 6:22 AM, therunner said:

Edit: Though I see there is WoB that Sovereign was involved in BoM creation, though there is also one that RAFOs whether Kelsier created them. Tension.

I don't think it's really a tension. Kelsier was involved but did not actually create them himself (he didn't have the powers to do so anyway, which is probably why that was RAFOd). I think Kelsier did the design with his Sliver-derived expanded mind and knowledge, Spook provided the Allomancy powers, and someone else did the Feruchemy.