spoilers [RoW] Moash and Renarin

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

What exactly is happening here? This is when Moash is in the burning manor basement with Kaladin. Moash is taunting him when a pure, concentrated light explodes into the room: 

Quote

Moash growled, spinning around, shading his eyes against the source of the light—which came from the doorway. The figure behind it wasn’t visible as anything more than a shadow.

Moash shied away from the light—but a version of him, transparent and filmy, broke off and stepped toward the light instead. Like an after-image. In it, Kaladin saw the same Moash—but somehow standing taller, wearing a brilliant blue uniform. This one raised a hand, confident, and although Kaladin couldn't see them, he knew people gathered behind this Moash. Protected. Safe.

The image of Moash burst alight as a Shardspear formed in his hands.

"No!" the real Moash screamed. "No! Take it! Take my pain!"

Ch. 8, RoW

The figure in the light was Renarin, so is this his attempt at lightweaving? Does he lightweave possibilities (as he is able to see them), and he saw Moash’s alternative path which would’ve led to him living as a respectable Radiant Windrunner? Why does this cause Moash to feel pain again (he says to take the pain away)?
 

This also ties in with Moash at the end, when he begins to feel pain:

Quote

… a terrible sound. It had pushed away his Connection to Odium, forcing Moash to feel pain for the things he’d done— pain he didn’t want. Pain he’d given away.

Ch. 111, RoW

Is this weakening of the Connection similar to the scene in Ch. 8? 
 

Thoughts? 

Edited February 13, 2023 by theSurgeOfPhysics

[Frustration he/him]

We don't know, not definitely anyway.

[The Sovereign he/him]

I suspect that this is Enlighted version of Renarin's Lightweaving, people seem to think that the stained glass fortune ability is his Lightweaving, but I suspect that is actually an effect created by the combination of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium's powers. The light itself seems to have created a similar effect to what someone sees when they burn Allomantic Gold.  I agree that it is related to the the scene at the end. I suspect that it isn't specifically that that Odium's connection to Moash is severed or weakened but rather that Odium is lying when he says he can take someone's pain. Instead I think he essentially masks and smothers people's pain with his Investiture. We know that Renarin makes it so people close to him are essentially Blindspots in Odium's vision. This is very similar to Ruin and Preservation's inability to see metals. In the first case I believe Ranarin made Odium unable to see Moash so he could not mask his pain. The later case The Anti-Voidlight tone forced Odium's "protection" away in a similar way although I suspect that was more like pushing Odium away rather than making him unable to see and "protect" Moash.

Bonus points: Moash does have internalized pain and regret, we know this first because his Bridge Four tattoo was not healed by his Stormlight. The damage to his eyes then happens while the Anti-Voidlight tone is blocking Odium's investiture allowing him to be so harmed in the first place. Like Kaladin's scars (for a long time anyways) Moash's eyes do not heal because he views the damage as part of himself presumably because of his betrayal and then the killing of Teft.

[theSurgeOfPhysics]

On 2/13/2023 at 7:22 AM, The Sovereign said:

Moash's eyes do not heal because he views the damage as part of himself

Yes, also because he may subconsciously realize that Odium blinded his thinking and brainwashed him. If he wants to remain blind in that regard, then so too physically. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:22 AM, The Sovereign said:

 The damage to his eyes then happens while the Anti-Voidlight tone is blocking Odium's investiture allowing him to be so harmed in the first place. Like Kaladin's scars (for a long time anyways) Moash's eyes do not heal because he views the damage as part of himself presumably because of his betrayal and then the killing of Teft.

It's also possible that it was some form of Spiritual damage, and since Honorblades cannot heal Shardblade wounds (with the exception of the two Honorblades that grand the surge of Progression), so Moash couldn't heal his eyes either.

That's how I thought it worked, anyway.

[The Sovereign he/him]

37 minutes ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said:

Yes, also because he may subconsciously realize that Odium blinded his thinking and brainwashed him. If he wants to remain blind in that regard, then so too physically. 

You verbalized something important here, Moash WANTS to remain Blinded (at least on some level).

23 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

It's also possible that it was some form of Spiritual damage, and since Honorblades cannot heal Shardblade wounds (with the exception of the two Honorblades that grand the surge of Progression), so Moash couldn't heal his eyes either.

That's how I thought it worked, anyway.

This may be true (I'm not sure if it has ever been confirmed one way or the other regarding Healing with Honorblades), though it may simply be that with the inefficiency of Surgebinding with an Honorblade that it would simply take A LOT of Stormlight to heal such a wound with an Honorblade. I suspect that as long as the Spiritual Damage didn't somehow change your own view of your Identity, then it could at least hypothetically be healed. Think of Kaladin; He considered his scars as part of him, so they were. Once he no longer did, they healed.

[Frustration he/him]

3 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

This may be true (I'm not sure if it has ever been confirmed one way or the other regarding Healing with Honorblades), though it may simply be that with the inefficiency of Surgebinding with an Honorblade that it would simply take A LOT of Stormlight to heal such a wound with an Honorblade. I suspect that as long as the Spiritual Damage didn't somehow change your own view of your Identity, then it could at least hypothetically be healed. Think of Kaladin; He considered his scars as part of him, so they were. Once he no longer did, they healed.

It's a deficiency with Honorblades

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

Possible reason that Renarin’s “lightweaving” made Moash’s pain come back is that his powers caused Odium to not be able to perceive Moash but I’m not sure just that would interrupt the connection Odium uses to siphon the pain. I assume it was just a subconscious thing where seeing the illusion part of Moash recognizes he deserves to feel pain but the conscious part of him still rejects it so it caused a hiccup in the connection.

[The Sovereign he/him]

On 2/14/2023 at 0:01 PM, Frustration said:

It's a deficiency with Honorblades

Thank you! I know I've read that before, but it has been a while. And the nature of the bond makes this make perfect sense. 

On 2/14/2023 at 0:07 PM, lacrossedeamon said:

Possible reason that Renarin’s “lightweaving” made Moash’s pain come back is that his powers caused Odium to not be able to perceive Moash but I’m not sure just that would interrupt the connection Odium uses to siphon the pain. I assume it was just a subconscious thing where seeing the illusion part of Moash recognizes he deserves to feel pain but the conscious part of him still rejects it so it caused a hiccup in the connection.

This may simply be semantics, but the scene makes me think of Shallan's flashback with Wit in WoR. The vision of what life with her whole family could and should be. I don't think it is that Moash thinks he deserves to feel pain, I think it made him realize what his pain actually is; The knowledge that this Truth that SHOULD have been:

Quote

...the same Moash—but somehow standing taller, wearing a brilliant blue uniform. This one raised a hand, confident, and although Kaladin couldn't see them, he knew people gathered behind this Moash. Protected. Safe.

The image of Moash burst alight as a Shardspear formed in his hands.

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by The Sovereign

[bmcclure7]

On 2/14/2023 at 10:27 AM, Trusk'our said:

It's also possible that it was some form of Spiritual damage, and since Honorblades cannot heal Shardblade wounds (with the exception of the two Honorblades that grand the surge of Progression), so Moash couldn't heal his eyes either.

That's how I thought it worked, anyway.

 This is not true. There's nothing in the book to suggest it. 

[Frustration he/him]

43 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 This is not true. There's nothing in the book to suggest it. 

That Honorblades can't heal shardblade wounds(which Szeth directly states during the WoK prologue)

Or that Moash's eyes were spiritually damaged, which he says is a possibility, not an absolute fact?

[bmcclure7]

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That Honorblades can't heal shardblade wounds(which Szeth directly states during the WoK prologue)

Or that Moash's eyes were spiritually damaged, which he says is a possibility, not an absolute fact?

 No he most certainly does not show me the quote.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

46 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 No he most certainly does not show me the quote.  

I got the idea that an Honorblade couldn't heal spiritual damage caused by a Shardblade from reading Szeth's observations in WoK. But, he may also be wrong about needing to take ten heartbeats to summon an Honorblade, so his word isn't necessarily law.

Quote

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

treegrass

How long does it take to summon an Honorblade? Is it ten heartbeats or instant?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Honorblades, as far as anyone knows is ten sec- ten heartbeats. If you were to ask Szeth how long it would take, he would say ten heartbeats.

treegrass

But they're not?

Brandon Sanderson

I am not saying that. I am saying if you ask Szeth, if you ask the current bearer of Jezrien's Blade, they would all say it takes ten heartbeats.

Questioner 2

What about for the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO there.

So maybe you can heal from spiritual damage via any Honorblade, but you need to have the right perception or maybe just a lot more Stormlight than you would realistically have access to.

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 No he most certainly does not show me the quote.  

Ahem

Quote

"The tempest within Szeth gave him many advantages--including the ability to quickly recover from small wounds. But it would not restore limbs killed by a Shardblade." -WoK page 30.

 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I got the idea that an Honorblade couldn't heal spiritual damage caused by a Shardblade from reading Szeth's observations in WoK. But, he may also be wrong about needing to take ten heartbeats to summon an Honorblade, so his word isn't necessarily law.

So maybe you can heal from spiritual damage via any Honorblade, but you need to have the right perception or maybe just a lot more Stormlight than you would realistically have access to.

It is a weakness of Honorblades, not Szeth

Spoiler

Questioner

Szeth says in the first Stormlight book that he can't heal from a Shardblade--

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

He can't.

 

Questioner

So when he got cut he couldn't heal that...

 

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not with his powers.

 

Questioner

Not from an Honorblade.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Not from an Honorblade.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e89Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788Questioner (paraphrased)

What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Which is an Honorblade, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I can't say, but Szeth says in Book One you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/225/#e5801

 

 

 

 

I can keep adding WoBs, but you get the point.

[Trusk'our he/him]

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

Ahem

 

It is a weakness of Honorblades, not Szeth

  Hide contents

Questioner

Szeth says in the first Stormlight book that he can't heal from a Shardblade--

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

He can't.

 

Questioner

So when he got cut he couldn't heal that...

 

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not with his powers.

 

Questioner

Not from an Honorblade.

 

Brandon Sanderson

Not from an Honorblade.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e89Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788Questioner (paraphrased)

What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Which is an Honorblade, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I can't say, but Szeth says in Book One you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/225/#e5801

 

 

 

 

I can keep adding WoBs, but you get the point.

Thanks @Frustration!

Well, looks like we have confirmation now that Honorblades really can't heal spiritual damage.

I bet this is because Honorblades do not suffuse your being with Investiture the way the Nahel Bond does, which sounds important.

Quote

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

Quote

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

Questioner

A character in The Stormlight Archive who eventually was able to heal of a wound. An old wound, and normally healing old wounds, with Regrowth, can't be healed.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a limitation of healing someone else, versus healing yourself. Healing someone else is a weaker method, at least as it's understood by the Radiants currently. Figuring out how to make Regrowth fix older wounds is more difficult. When you are highly Invested in such a way that you have a spren bond, then you are able to kind of rewrite your Spiritual self to better match your Cognitive self. Basically, what your soul is better comes to match your perception of your soul and who you are, and who you want to be becomes more important. And because of that, the Radiant bond is able to heal things and even change physiology that normal Regrowth wouldn't be capable of doing.

I do hope that Sanderson will get into the Realmatics of the differences between Honorblades and Radiant Bonds though, as I'm still confused as to why they function so differently in some ways. They both are made up of what appears to be similar amounts of Investiture, and they both spiritually Bond individuals to those sources of Investiture, but they don't seem to do so in the same way.

[cometaryorbit]

I think it really is just that Honorblade bonds are much weaker so the Investiture isn't infusing the person nearly as completely. It's not really bonding with the soul in a way that can change it.

Though maybe it also matters that Radiant's spiritweb is merging with the spren's, so the Investiture has a reference for what the soul should look like from the spren.

Though (Mistborn WoBs)

Spoiler

Apparently Gold Compounding can heal Spiritual wounds too. There's no spren equivalent there.

 

[Honorless he/him]

On 2/13/2023 at 6:52 PM, The Sovereign said:

I suspect that this is Enlighted version of Renarin's Lightweaving, people seem to think that the stained glass fortune ability is his Lightweaving, but I suspect that is actually an effect created by the combination of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium's powers. 

Agreed, I also think that is his version of Lightweaving.

And the Futuresight is perhaps something like a Resonance, Illumination of Progression.