Shallan's true Truths [RoW]

[alder24]

Ever since I’ve read this Death Rattle, I believed that to truly break the bond with spren, you need to say Words opposite and contradictory to the Ideals you’ve spoken.

Quote

The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended. 

—Observed on Betabanes 1173, 95 seconds pre-death, collected secondhand and later reported to the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a scholar of some minor renown. Sample considered questionable.

This WoB suggests saying words is one of the ways to break the bond with spren.

Spoiler

Questioner

Kaladin kind of went back on his Oaths in the second book, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He started down that path.

Questioner

How could Shallan or Lightweavers go back on the truths they make? And did Shallan do any of that in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the Cryptics-- remember, how the spren is viewing this is very important. The Cryptics have an interesting relationship with truth. Harder to break your Oaths in that direction with a Cryptic. Harder to move forward, also, if you're not facing some of these things and interacting with them in the right way. But, while I can conceive a world that it could happen, it'd be really hard to for a Lightweaver to do some of the stuff. Particularly the ones close to Honor, you're gonna end up with more trouble along those lines, let's say.

Questioner

So then, what happened with the Lightweavers during the Recreance? Did they break their Oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

They did break their Oaths. I mean, breaking your Oaths as in "walking away from the first Oath" will still do it, regardless of what Order you are. You can actively say, "I am breaking my Oaths and walking away." Anyone has that option. But you also are holding the life of a spren in your hand.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

However up until RoW ch 93 there was nothing more to suggest this was the case. Until we saw Shallan breaking her own bond with Testament, by speaking words that might not feel important at first, yet are the key to her original Truths.

Quote

Within it, a hidden place where a girl cried. The girl wept, then screamed,then said the terrible words.
“I don’t want you! I hate you! I’m done! You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!”
Shallan didn’t turn away. She wouldn’t. She felt the ripping sensation again. The terrible pain, and the awful horror.

To fully break the bond, she spoke inverted words of her original Truths and the First Ideal. First Ideal is contradicted with the last three sentences, as they fit together very well, this means breaking of the Oaths is in order from the one recently spoken, to the First Ideal

“Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination” - “You never existed. You are nothing. And I am finished!”

Life never existed, the Strength is nothing, and the journey is finished. This bears very close resemblance to the Death Rattle quoted above. Knowing this we can say that Shallan's bond with Testament was on the 4th Ideal. “I’m done!” negated her 2nd Truth, “I hate you!” was for 3rd one, and “I don’t want you!“ inverted the last, 4th Truth she had spoken. These seems like a simple statements and I believe her Truths were also childishly simply, even Shallan said it herself: 

Quote

Memories  flooded  her.  Playing  in  the  gardens  as  a  child,  meeting  a Cryptic. A beautiful, spiraling spren that dimpled the stone. Wonderful times, spent hidden among the foliage in their special place. The Cryptic encouraged her to become strong enough to help her family, to stand against the terrible darkness spreading through it. Such a blessed time, full of hope, and joy, and truths spoken easily with the solemnity and wonder of a child. That companion had been a true friend to an isolated child, a girl who suffered parents who constantly fought over her future.

We can now guess her original Truths with Testament:

• 2nd Truth is the opposite of “I’m done!”, so it would be about starting of something, Shallan just simply admitting that “this is a new beginning” fits well enough. 
• 3rd Truth was contradicted with “I hate you!”, so her Truth would be saying that she likes Testament. “I like you”.
• 4th Truth, the last one, was broken with “I don’t want you!“. Her Truth might be realizing that she wants to spend time or be with Testament, or even that she needs her. 

Now Shallan's situation with Testament is different from Kaladin’s with Syl in WoR. Kaladin didn’t say the contradicting words, he didn’t fully break his Oaths, he just didn’t live up to them. And when he started living by Ideals again, Syl was brought back to life, and he was able to say the 3rd Ideal. Shallan contradicted every single Ideal she’d spoken with inverted words. She can’t say the 5th Truth and make Testament alive again, she needs to reconstruct every Ideal she’s broken. And we have WoBs confirming it.

Spoiler

enceladus_47

Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

The dead shardblades, could you possibly get Stormlight into them to reawaken them?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead shardblade could you pump enough Stormlight into them? That alone would not be enough.

Questioner

So you would have to find someone to re-swear with oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something broken on the Spiritual Realm because of the broken oath and simple Stormlight will not fix that.

Questioner

So say--

Brandon Sanderson

If the person were still alive and could re-swear the oath then yes.

Questioner

[...] the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not outside the realm of reason but it would be very very very difficult.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

She has already started doing it. She must have said her first Ideal somewhere in the past, maybe even at the same time she said it to Pattern unknowingly. Shallan said in RoW that she remembered using her surges after breaking the bond with Testament but before bonding Pattern, she soulcasted in WoK, and she was using Testament as a Shardblade during WoR. 

The most obvious candidate for her new Truth with Testament is “I’m terrified” spoken to a spren during events of WoK, when she soulcasted the goblet into blood. However, which Truth was reconstructed with these words is hard to say. It might be the 2nd one, or even the 3rd one, thus granting her ability to summon Testament as a Shardblade again, and allowing the blade to change shapes, open Oathgates, and look like a living Shardblade. To add more, Shallan admitting to killing or bonding Testament in RoW might be reconstruction of another Truth, as WoB posted above suggests this is a step in reconstructing her Oaths. But if that's true, then "I'm terrified" can't be 3rd one, as with the one in RoW she would be at 4th Ideal, and would fully reconstruct her Oaths. Yet Testament is still Deadeye. There might be something more needed, or her admitting to killing her spren might be just laying the foundation, not Oath reconstruction, because now she's aware of this, and now she can knowingly work on reconstructing more Oaths.

 

What do you think? What were Shallan’s original Truths spoken with Testament? What Truths has she managed to reconstruct?

[Frustration]

I never thought about needing to actually say you are going back on the oaths, I always thought that it was more of an action thing, but I guess you have to say the oath to begin with.

That would imply that Syl never actually died.

Very interesting.

[alder24]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That would imply that Syl never actually died.

I always had a problem with this. On one hand both Syl and Stormfather confirmed that Syl was dead, yet on the other Stormfather was actively preventing her from returning to Kaladin, and warning her that Kaladin will kill her. Not again, not like before, but just will kill her. I guess she was very close to dying and becoming the deadeye, and was being hurt a lot by Kalading conflicting oaths, yet because Kaladin himself was conflicted and didn't fully cross the line, she didn't fully become deadeye - Stormfather took her and cared for her in this near-death state, and prevented her from returning to him. So I'm still not sure if Syl was truly a deadeye at that moment or just very close to becoming one.

[kenod]

I'm not entirely certain you need to break your oaths by actively stating something, which feels rather weird. At most, I suspect it finalizes a breaking, creating a point of no return. I think that stating your breaking an oath is important more because of the Intent behind it, and how it formalizes your thoughts on it.

At the same time, it's good to also keep in mind that, even if Lightweaver Truths are harder to break than Oaths, what Shallan did probably would do the trick anyway. Unlike Oaths, which seem to revolve around realizing what you need to do or become, Thruths seem to revolve around realizing who you are, and seeing yourself clearly. Shallan, on the other hand, essentially repressed her memories. Stating the opposite of a truth wouldn't break it, in my opinion, since, at least if it comes from your own feelings, it'd still be a truth about yourself.
What Shallan actually did, and what I feel likely plays a bigger role, is the rejection of truths. She actively repressed her memories, the truth about herself. She hid inside a lie. I suspect that this was the real issue. While what she said might have played a role, I expect it wouldn't be because it happens to deny her truths, but because it states an intent she doesn't want the bond anymore, and that she doesn't want to face reality. She consciously rejected her Spren and the bond, actively saying she didn't want it anymore, and thus, she didn't have it anymore.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, kenod said:

I'm not entirely certain you need to break your oaths by actively stating something, which feels rather weird. At most, I suspect it finalizes a breaking, creating a point of no return. I think that stating your breaking an oath is important more because of the Intent behind it, and how it formalizes your thoughts on it.

I would have agreed, but as I thought about it, you need to say the ideals as well. You can live the third ideal for years, but until you say it, you're still second ideal.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Frustration

[kenod]

Just now, Frustration said:

I would have agreed, but as I thought about it, you need to say the ideals as well. You can live the third ideal for years, but until you say it, you're still second ideal.

True, but at the same time, it has been shown that backsliding far enough is enough to essentially kill the spren, even if returning to your oaths can revive them later on. It might not permanently sever the bond, but it can put the spren in at least a pseudo-dead state.

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, kenod said:

I'm not entirely certain you need to break your oaths by actively stating something, which feels rather weird. At most, I suspect it finalizes a breaking, creating a point of no return. I think that stating your breaking an oath is important more because of the Intent behind it, and how it formalizes your thoughts on it.

At the same time, it's good to also keep in mind that, even if Lightweaver Truths are harder to break than Oaths, what Shallan did probably would do the trick anyway. Unlike Oaths, which seem to revolve around realizing what you need to do or become, Thruths seem to revolve around realizing who you are, and seeing yourself clearly. Shallan, on the other hand, essentially repressed her memories. Stating the opposite of a truth wouldn't break it, in my opinion, since, at least if it comes from your own feelings, it'd still be a truth about yourself.
What Shallan actually did, and what I feel likely plays a bigger role, is the rejection of truths. She actively repressed her memories, the truth about herself. She hid inside a lie. I suspect that this was the real issue. While what she said might have played a role, I expect it wouldn't be because it happens to deny her truths, but because it states an intent she doesn't want the bond anymore, and that she doesn't want to face reality. She consciously rejected her Spren and the bond, actively saying she didn't want it anymore, and thus, she didn't have it anymore.

Yes, Intent is a must, that goes without saying. Intent is always a very important part in Cosmere. And like first WoB stated, walking away from Oaths would still break the bond (like Kaladin almost did), but saying "I'm breaking the Oaths" does it as well. There is Intent behind both of these actions. Saying the words might make it a far quicker process. And what Shallan said was a denying the Truths - she said she hates him, yet she was liking him before. She didn't say it with the meaning that she changed her fellings, she denyied that Testament ever existed, that Shallan ever liked her etc. This was contradictory to her previously spoken Truths, said with the Intent to break the bond. And I think, that's what matters.

However it's not the repression of her memories that broke her Oaths, she felt the bond breaking right after she said the words "She felt the ripping sensation again. The terrible pain, and the awful horror.". It's like what Teft was feeling the moment Phendorana was killed - incapacitating agony as a part of his soul was ripped away. Kaladin felt nothing like that. So the words Shallan said in that moment were very important, and were the cause for breaking the bond.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

I would have agreed, but as I thought about it, you need to say the ideals as well. You can live the third ideal for years, but until you say it, you're still second ideal.

Nope, Stormfather accepted Eshonai's words without her saying anything. Before anyone brings up Elhokar, he needed to say it out loud because of his psychology. He usually hid from truth using denial and pretension.

[alder24]

11 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Nope, Stormfather accepted Eshonai's words without her saying anything.

I'm not sure if Radiant has to say the words, but in the case of Eshonai, she was unable to say the words under water, Stormfather himself said that. During her struggle she chose freedom over power, so that's why Stormfather accepted her unspoken words. She said the words in her mind.

Edited February 6, 2023 by alder24

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I'm not sure if Radiant has to say the words, but in the case of Eshonai, she was unable to say the words under water, Stormfather himself said that. During her struggle she chose freedom over power, so that's why Stormfather accepted her unspoken words. She said the words in her mind.

Exactly