Powers granted by dead spren

[Frustration]

So I was digging around in the arcanum, looking for ways to manipulate time using surgebinding because it's mentioned in WoK prime's double eye chart. You know, as you do. When I stumbled on something completely unexpected.

Spoiler

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86/#e5675

 

Given what we now know about that scene some interesting things come into play. We know that Shallan had some powers left over from her original bond, and that summoning shardblades brings them back slightly.

So when Radiants break their oaths their spren become something closer to Honorblades that work exclusively for them, and have to be summoned in order to grant most of their powers.

This has interesting implications if Roshar figures out a way to remove Identity from the deadeyes, or potentially from themselves, as it would mean there are a lot more Honorblade type weapons out in the world.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Frustration

[Quantus]

12 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I was digging around in the arcanum, looking for ways to manipulate time using surgebinding because it's mentioned in WoK prime's double eye chart. You know, as you do. When I stumbled on something completely unexpected.

  Hide contents

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86/#e5675

 

Given what we now know about that scene some interesting things come into play. We know that Shallan had some powers left over from her original bond, and that summoning shardblades brings them back slightly.

So when Radiants break their oaths their spren become something closer to Honorblades that work exclusively for them, and have to be summoned in order to grant most of their powers.

This has interesting implications if Roshar figures out a way to remove Identity from the deadeyes, or potentially from themselves, as it would mean there are a lot more Honorblade type weapons out in the world.

Fascinating!

So a deadeye shardblade that is sufficiently Connected to the wielder (naturally/typically by being their original Bonded Radiant) they will grant Surges, somewhere between an Honorblade and a Twin Surge Fabrial, depending on how much of the generic Radiant package they'd also grant.  Hell, maybe that's what they were after, a middle ground between the Radiant bond and whatever "sacrifice" they consider it to become a Fabrial.  This seems like something Navani will want to study with Maya, and could well have the Powers to modify appropriately.  

Fwiw, I think increased Connection will have more to do with it than the Identity Blanking medallions use, mostly because (I assume?) spren maintain a lot of their own Identity even throughout the bond. 

 

Also, to the sparking project: 

Spoiler

My current hypothesis is that Time Manipulation (ie Time sliding, but no paradox travel) will be a Spiritual Gravitation Lashing.  Instead of manipulating the Bonds that hold a person (and define directionality) in the Physical Realm, it would manipulate the Bond that keeps them in step with Cosmere Time, while pulling them closer to the Spiritual Realm to bypass all the Energy & Investiture Conservation issues. Im not sure if they'd come to that idea before they get to the Relativity stage of scientific development, but with enough world-hopping they might just observe some time dilation and get theorizing.   It also might mean Rosharan Time Tech leans toward single target while Scardian will be better at AoE, which would be an interesting dynamic.  

 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

maybe that's what they were after, a middle ground between the Radiant bond and whatever "sacrifice" they consider it to become a Fabrial.

That sounds rather plausible.

A way for them to artificially keep surgebinding from breaking planets, but still giving humanity the ability to fight Desolations.

Though, that makes me wonder if dead plate could do anything for their original radiant.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I was digging around in the arcanum, looking for ways to manipulate time using surgebinding because it's mentioned in WoK prime's double eye chart. You know, as you do. When I stumbled on something completely unexpected.

  Reveal hidden contents

Havoc (paraphrased)

In Way of Kings, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from Words of Radiance that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She would not have been able to. Good question! Wow. No one has ever asked me that before.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/86/#e5675

 

Given what we now know about that scene some interesting things come into play. We know that Shallan had some powers left over from her original bond, and that summoning shardblades brings them back slightly.

So when Radiants break their oaths their spren become something closer to Honorblades that work exclusively for them, and have to be summoned in order to grant most of their powers.

This has interesting implications if Roshar figures out a way to remove Identity from the deadeyes, or potentially from themselves, as it would mean there are a lot more Honorblade type weapons out in the world.

Nice one. But I think this is a connection issue. Radiant's powers are granted by connection between Knight and Spren. Shallan and Testament still have remnants of their bond and connection between them. But all deadeye’s Radiants have been dead for more than 1500 years. So this connection is now fully broken, and can’t be remade with regular Shardblade connection. It isn't a Radiant connection. But Bondsmith could be able to restore that connection copying what Shallan has. I don't thnik manipulating Identity would achieve this.

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That sounds rather plausible.

A way for them to artificially keep surgebinding from breaking planets, but still giving humanity the ability to fight Desolations.

Though, that makes me wonder if dead plate could do anything for their original radiant.

Given how much plate Connects enough to grants a random person a whole suit of low-level physical enhancements (speed, endurance, reflexes, etc), I think they'd almost certainly do more for their originator.  If a dead shardblade can grant surges and be summoned (and likely without the 10 heartbeat waiting time, if maya/adolin can), the shardplate would probably be able to do a lot of the more impressive stuff we saw Kaladin's do, being Connected enough to direct the Spren themselves.  Though that could be an understanding problem, since modern Rosharans had entirely forgotten they were Spren originally.  But they also were less...damaged? by the dying process, if Syl's impression of their contentment compared to blades is accurate.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nice one.

Why thank you.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But I think this is a connection issue. Radiant's powers are granted by connection between Knight and Spren. Shallan and Testament still have remnants of their bond and connection between them. But all deadeye’s Radiants have been dead for more than 1500 years. So this connection is now fully broken, and can’t be remade with regular Shardblade connection. It isn't a Radiant connection. But Bondsmith could be able to restore that connection copying what Shallan has. I don't thnik manipulating Identity would achieve this.

I was more thinking that the Connection is locked on to the original Radiant 's Identity, kind of like metalminds, but thinking about it now it could require both Connection and Identity manipulation to work.

[Quantus]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That sounds rather plausible.

A way for them to artificially keep surgebinding from breaking planets, but still giving humanity the ability to fight Desolations.

Though, that makes me wonder if dead plate could do anything for their original radiant.

This conversation made me want to reread Adolin's trial and Maya's declarations, and the bit where he offer's her his strength sparked something:  He felt a warmth within himself suddenly, then she breathed in deeply and was stronger.  Could that be Lifelight?  Could Adolin now be a Lifelight battery/generator for Maya, and could Maya herself now be developing the ability to use actual Lifebinding.  It feels like less of a stretch if we accept that deadsys spren can still grant surges if properly Connected.  

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was more thinking that the Connection is locked on to the original Radiant 's Identity, kind of like metalminds, but thinking about it now it could require both Connection and Identity manipulation to work.

After Jezrien's death, his connection to Oathpact was fully broken, it would look the same with Radiant's connection to his Shardblade. You might be right, and identity would be also needed but reestablishing that connection is necessary as that's what granting surges.

[Frustration]

Connection and Identity do have effects.

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Knight Radiant were to store Connection and Identity into the appropriate metalminds on a heavy basis, would it affect their spren bond, and how?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, right. Yes, but I won't answer the how, but it definitely has an effect. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9407

 

 

Interesting things are happening.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

It might be that Adolin has similar sDNA/cDNA to Mya's original radiant. After all, it's only a statistics problem.

[Trusk'our]

Huh. Based on some of the points made by Quantus, Frustration, and alder24, I wonder if a Connector Ferring would gain Surgbinding powers if they tapped enough Connection while Bonded to/summoning a Deadeye Shardblade?

That would be pretty interesting to see.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Frustration]

I just realized something else, when Shallan soulcasts with Testament, she only soulcasts blood, which is the essence associated with her order. I wonder if she is capable of preforming other transformations, or if Testament only gives the ability to soulcast with that essence now.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

I just realized something else, when Shallan soulcasts with Testament, she only soulcasts blood, which is the essence associated with her order. I wonder if she is capable of preforming other transformations, or if Testament only gives the ability to soulcast with that essence now.

I can't remember was there even a garnet in that scene. Radiants are still limited to what polestone they have access to in regards to Soulcasting.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

I can't remember was there even a garnet in that scene.

There's one in the soulcaster fake I think.

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Radiants are still limited to what polestone they have access to in regards to Soulcasting.

I don't believe it is ever confirmed that they are, and I personally doubt it.

Though whether that would apply to Shallan here is unknown.

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't believe it is ever confirmed that they are, and I personally doubt it.

Though whether that would apply to Shallan here is unknown.

From Coppermind:

Quote

Moreover, when Soulcasting, both Surgebinders and fabrial users are limited by the types of gems available to them.^[18] While the chemical composition of the gemstone is important, its color is paramount, with every color of a gemstone corresponding to one of the Ten Essences.^[5] A gemstone that has been bleached of color - for example, by Awakening - would work very poorly, or not work at all.^[19]

And supporting WoB:

Quote

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Why can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)

 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

From Coppermind:

And supporting WoB:

 

Yes I already looked through that, and I'd note him not saying that Jasnah and Shallan require the right gems.

And that with Radiants you inhale the stormlight, you can't use it while it is in gems. And as seen in RoW, the gem the light comes from doesn't matter.

[lacrossedeamon]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes I already looked through that, and I'd note him not saying that Jasnah and Shallan require the right gems.

And that with Radiants you inhale the stormlight, you can't use it while it is in gems. And as seen in RoW, the gem the light comes from doesn't matter.

It could be some early installment weirdness or him getting mixed up in the WOB. I don't know if and other depiction of Radiant Soulcasting makes note of specific gems but the WOB specifically says that Soulcasting (with no implication that he means fabrial Soulcasting given the question) has extra restrictions regarding the polestones.

[Wandering Shade]

I feel like Radiant Soulcasting requiring specific gemstones for the different essences is just a leftover bit of lore from WoK Prime that Brandon forgot wasn't true anymore, and/or changed his mind about.

Or he's just being cheeky about the fact that Shallan is limited in Soulcasting with her bond to Testament, and that has to operate with gemstones in the same way that "fabrial" Soulcasters (calling them that because they really dont seem like traditional fabrials at all) need specific gemstones to make specific essences.