Snapping through Hemalurgy

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

So, while Sazed changed how snapping works in era 2, could someone have been snapped into Allomancy by being Hemalurgically spiked? Since being stabbed seems like the kind of trauma that would do it. Maybe not to the diluted Allomancy before TLR’s Ascension, but to those in the time of MB era 1? Seems logical to me. This could then mean that someone who was turned into a koloss, for instance, before snapping could snap in the process of becoming a koloss, which might make a koloss that had Allomancy, though nobody would know because koloss neither swallow metals nor have the capacity to burn them.

[Mistchemist16]

What do you mean by “don’t have the capacity to burn them”? Check my lore but Allomancy already provides the releveant mechanisms for burning metal. You don’t need to injest it: just put it in your body. In some cases, you don’t even need consciousness to do it: just look at pewter. If it’s interference from Hemalurgic spikes, I’ll need a source.

Also, there’s no reason that koloss couldn’t be tested by trace minerals in water, like Vin got. That being said, people still wouldn’t know about Koloss Allomamcers for a different reason. You could burn bronze for the test or even try outright asking if they can feel a power inside them. Which I guess could be organized by a competent Hemalurgist

I think it’s possible to do what you’ve described, but if Allomancy is accessible after the transformation anyway, you might as well just spike a known Allomancer instead. I would also say you’re right for the wrong reasons about the last part. Most people wouldn’t know about Hemalurgy, but a practicing Hemalurgist could probably connect the dots. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

5 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

What do you mean by “don’t have the capacity to burn them”? Check my lore but Allomancy already provides the releveant mechanisms for burning metal. You don’t need to injest it: just put it in your body. In some cases, you don’t even need consciousness to do it: just look at pewter. If it’s interference from Hemalurgic spikes, I’ll need a source.

I meant mental capacity. Koloss wouldn’t think to burn metals. Maybe they could do it instinctively, but it seems that even most allomancers don’t do that,( after vin is injured by the inquisitor Kelsier says he wasn’t sure if she would instinctively burn her metals) and they know about their powers. Maybe it could happen with the Koloss, and I’m underestimating them, but it seems unlikely to me.

[Mistchemist16]

7 minutes ago, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

I meant mental capacity. Koloss wouldn’t think to burn metals. Maybe they could do it instinctively, but it seems that even most allomancers don’t do that,( after vin is injured by the inquisitor Kelsier says he wasn’t sure if she would instinctively burn her metals) and they know about their powers. Maybe it could happen with the Koloss, and I’m underestimating them, but it seems unlikely to me.

I guess. Elend didn’t have experience either, but maybe that’s just cause he had lerasium and was more powerful. And maybe if you explained it right to a koloss, they could. If all else fails, use duralumin-brass. But I think era 1 koloss could understand. Maybe not early Final Empire koloss, but it doesn’t seem that hard to grasp, since even Allomancers who don’t know anything can instinctively sense a well of power. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

Yeah they may sense the reserves, and if you explained it well enough they might be able to grasp the concept, but I’m not sure they’d be able to think to burn it on their own. It’s really impossible to say but that’s just how I think it would be

[Trusk'our]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:42 PM, TheSurvivorofDeath said:

So, while Sazed changed how snapping works in era 2, could someone have been snapped into Allomancy by being Hemalurgically spiked? Since being stabbed seems like the kind of trauma that would do it. Maybe not to the diluted Allomancy before TLR’s Ascension, but to those in the time of MB era 1? Seems logical to me. This could then mean that someone who was turned into a koloss, for instance, before snapping could snap in the process of becoming a koloss, which might make a koloss that had Allomancy, though nobody would know because koloss neither swallow metals nor have the capacity to burn them.

I don't think that someone who hasn't yet Snapped but has the potential to would Snap after being Hemalurgically spiked, even if the trauma would normally be sufficient.

Quote

Annotation Mistborn 3 Chapter Seventy | Brandon Sanderson

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn’t much of a revelation. Hopefully I’ll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don’t know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That’s a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It’s very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it’s not a perfect system. It’s like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won’t be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists’ intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It’s in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That’s because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin’s control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer’s control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don’t have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn’t happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The new piece of dominant Ruin would likely suppress the extra bit of Preservation that would need to be freed in order to become an Allomancer.

However, if you removed the Hemalurgic spike in question, the trauma plus the now freed-up bit of Preservation would probably cause them to Snap and become a natural Allomancer.

[alder24]

33 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think that someone who hasn't yet Snapped but has the potential to would Snap after being Hemalurgically spiked, even if the trauma would normally be sufficient.

The new piece of dominant Ruin would likely suppress the extra bit of Preservation that would need to be freed in order to become an Allomancer.

However, if you removed the Hemalurgic spike in question, the trauma plus the now freed-up bit of Preservation would probably cause them to Snap and become a natural Allomancer.

I don't think it's like that, because of how snapping worked during TFE. Beating people nearly to death causes trauma, and creates cracks in their soul, thus allowing this extra bit of Preservation to escape this opposing power that it's trapped in between. And that's all there is to snapping, creating holes in their soul to allow connection to Preservation to from, granting Allomancy. While Hemalurgy does create cracks in the soul, it also fills that crack with a piece of something else (both Ruin's investiture and piece of donor's soul), however I think cracks are wide enough to allow investiture to pass through it, thus snapping you in the process. 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Like Nahel Bond is formed by spren filling cracks in knight's soul, snapping also makes those cracks to allow that extra bit of Preservation access connection to Preservation through those cracks. Being spiked is sufficient enough to form a Nahel Bond.

Spoiler

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay cool.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

 

[Stick The Savant]

On 1/22/2023 at 4:49 PM, Mistchemist16 said:

I guess. Elend didn’t have experience either, but maybe that’s just cause he had lerasium and was more powerful. And maybe if you explained it right to a koloss, they could. If all else fails, use duralumin-brass. But I think era 1 koloss could understand. Maybe not early Final Empire koloss, but it doesn’t seem that hard to grasp, since even Allomancers who don’t know anything can instinctively sense a well of power. 

wasn't it also implied that Vin used trace amounts of pewter to withstand Camon's beatings? she didn't know she was an allomancer at that point so she was burning the metal without completley understanding what she was doing. I would think that Their intelligence wouldn't be the biggest factor in them not burning metals.

[Mistchemist16]

39 minutes ago, Stick The Savant said:

wasn't it also implied that Vin used trace amounts of pewter to withstand Camon's beatings? she didn't know she was an allomancer at that point so she was burning the metal without completley understanding what she was doing. I would think that Their intelligence wouldn't be the biggest factor in them not burning metals.

You are correct about that. I also want to distinguish a point that I messed up in my earlier post.

Once you Snap and become a true Allomancer, it is really easy to figure out you’re an Allomancer. All you need to do is eat some metal, then look inside yourself and find the well of power. The people made sick by the Mists figure out their powers quickly once Elend tells them what to do. Similarly, Spook found his Hemalurgic pewter near instantly once Ruin told him to look. This is in contrast with reflexive burning, which is much more difficult and something Kelsier wasn’t sure Vin could do. I also suspect that you’d need to be on Vin or Elend’s level to do it automatically without knowing, like she did with Camon and he did at the Well.

However, you’d only need the first to find Allomancers. So if you suspected a Koloss had Allomancy, you could make them do the test. But that would be tricky because

1. You’d have to suspect the Koloss had Allomancy to begin with, which would only really be obvious if the koloss used to be an Allomancer or if you gave them a Hemalurgic spike.

2. You’d have to get them to cooperate in the test. As I said, I believe Era 1 koloss could do so, but not necessarily early Final Empire koloss. However, even a crude description by the koloss should be enough to convey whether they have a metal reserve or not.

If those two hurdles were cleared, you could test koloss allomancers. It’s also worth noting that kandra can gain Allomancy from Hemalurgy, so there’s no reason koloss shouldn’t benefit from that at least

NinjaMeTimbers

What would happen if you gave [a mistwraith] a spike imbued with steel Allomancy? I'm assuming that wouldn't be enough to grant it sentience but could it then use steel powers? Can you give Allomantic powers to a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy can give Allomantic powers to a kandra. The process to do so is not known to anyone but Harmony.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

We don’t know if naturally Allomancy also carries over, but in lieu of conflicting evidence, I believe it does.

In short, koloss Allomancers are easy to achieve and were just one more thing that no one found in the Final Empire because it was a rather complicated research environment.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

2. You’d have to get them to cooperate in the test. As I said, I believe Era 1 koloss could do so, but not necessarily early Final Empire koloss. However, even a crude description by the koloss should be enough to convey whether they have a metal reserve or not.

If those two hurdles were cleared, you could test koloss allomancers. It’s also worth noting that kandra can gain Allomancy from Hemalurgy, so there’s no reason koloss shouldn’t benefit from that at least

I don't believe Koloss has necessary mental abilities to allow them to "test" themself or even understand what Allomancy is. It was pointed out multiple times during Vin's and Elend's fights with Koloss that they just don't understand how someone so small can fight and kill so many of them. When Vin pushed Human into telling him how new Koloss are made, he couldn't even find proper words to tell her that. They simply wouldn't be able to comprehend Allomancy, even if they had it, and had metal reserves in them.

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I don't believe Koloss has necessary mental abilities to allow them to "test" themself or even understand what Allomancy is. It was pointed out multiple times during Vin's and Elend's fights with Koloss that they just don't understand how someone so small can fight and kill so many of them.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t actually know what age metal reserves become detectable at. I don’t believe there are any numbers for when Vin learned she had Luck, though I may be misremembering. 
 

Either way, we need to ask just how much self perception koloss have. For reference, 15-18 months old is when a human can first recognize themself in a mirror. They know that the mirror represents themself and can use it to recognize something on their physical self, even if they don’t understand why mirrors work. At 4-5 years old, a human has enough self consciousness to recognize that what they see in the mirror is what everyone else sees. We know koloss can recognize that they are not human to some extent, hence the desire to become human by attacking Luthadel. But I don’t know exactly where koloss fall on the spectrum. Plus, detecting a metal reserve may be even more advanced and thus easily achieved for humans but not koloss.

Source: https://www.fatherly.com/health/children-five-stages-self-awareness-mirror-tests/amp

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

When Vin pushed Human into telling him how new Koloss are made, he couldn't even find proper words to tell her that.

Human did find words to tell Vin about koloss. From his limited understanding, he said “make more” assuming that was enough info. When Vin pushes him for an explanation, he says it’s “not right”. Which could be because he recognizes that the Lord Ruler normally gave the tools instead of allowing the koloss to act, so creating a new koloss is subverting that “natural” order. But more importantly, Vin pushes Human to do what he’s thinking of. That is why he tries to use the spikes. So, I don’t think your characterization of the scene is fair. Human didn’t guess what Vin knew, but he did try to explain it and she compelled him to do exactly what he didn’t want to explain.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but we don’t actually know what age metal reserves become detectable at. I don’t believe there are any numbers for when Vin learned she had Luck, though I may be misremembering. 

Vin snapped when she was being born. Since then she instinctively burned metals. Even a small kid has better mental capacity than a koloss.

15 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Either way, we need to ask just how much self perception koloss have. For reference, 15-18 months old is when a human can first recognize themself in a mirror. They know that the mirror represents themself and can use it to recognize something on their physical self, even if they don’t understand why mirrors work. At 4-5 years old, a human has enough self consciousness to recognize that what they see in the mirror is what everyone else sees. We know koloss can recognize that they are not human to some extent, hence the desire to become human by attacking Luthadel. But I don’t know exactly where koloss fall on the spectrum. Plus, detecting a metal reserve may be even more advanced and thus easily achieved for humans but not koloss.

The difference is koloss are purposefully mentally chained by hemalurgy, so it's just hard to say how mentally able they are, compared to a person of any given age. What is shown in books clearly proves that they barely understand the basics of life, just recently gained self identity of being humans, but understanding such complex things like Allomancy would be still way beyond them. Maybe some unconscious, unintentional burning of traces metals, yet even this I find unlikely, as their body is heavily mutilated, and is no longer human-like.

22 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Human did find words to tell Vin about koloss. From his limited understanding, he said “make more” assuming that was enough info. When Vin pushes him for an explanation, he says it’s “not right”. Which could be because he recognizes that the Lord Ruler normally gave the tools instead of allowing the koloss to act, so creating a new koloss is subverting that “natural” order.

But koloss did start to reuse spikes, circumventing Rashek's limitations. So it was already a common thing among koloss.

 

[cometaryorbit]

I thought what Human was saying was "not right" was telling Vin about how koloss were made - or maybe more generally that it was "not right" that she didn't already know (they'd been controlled before by TLR and Inquisitors, who surely knew).

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Vin snapped when she was being born. Since then she instinctively burned metals. Even a small kid has better mental capacity than a koloss.

I’m not asking when she Snapped. I’m asking when she could first sense a metal reserve. We know she can do so with her brass and that she consciously controls that power. So there was probably a period of time as a baby where she did have the ability to form reserves, but simply couldn’t process them with her mind. Only when she got older could she properly sense her reserves.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Vin snapped when she was being born. Since then she instinctively burned metals. Even a small kid has better mental capacity than a koloss.

The difference is koloss are purposefully mentally chained by hemalurgy, so it's just hard to say how mentally able they are, compared to a person of any given age. What is shown in books clearly proves that they barely understand the basics of life, just recently gained self identity of being humans, but understanding such complex things like Allomancy would be still way beyond them. Maybe some unconscious, unintentional burning of traces metals, yet even this I find unlikely, as their body is heavily mutilated, and is no longer human-like.

The thing is, koloss don’t really need to know anything about the outside world. They just need to be able to mentally examine their body well enough to find the metal reserve. The case of Spook proves you have to look for the reserve, since he couldn’t immediately sense the pewter he drank despite having ability and metal. But it’s hard to tell what that act entails since it’s so natural for humans.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But koloss did start to reuse spikes, circumventing Rashek's limitations. So it was already a common thing among koloss.

 

There are also other possibilites for why Human said it “wasn’t right”. Like cometaryorbit suggested, he might’ve found it wrong that Vin didn’t know how to make koloss. I severely doubt the problem is hurting someone since koloss already do that without any problem. Nevertheless, Human did give what he believed to be an explanation. After that, he clams up, in large part because he doesn’t think it’s right to explain further. He only uses the spikes after Vin compels him to do what he is thinking of.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I’m not asking when she Snapped. I’m asking when she could first sense a metal reserve. We know she can do so with her brass and that she consciously controls that power. So there was probably a period of time as a baby where she did have the ability to form reserves, but simply couldn’t process them with her mind. Only when she got older could she properly sense her reserves.

We don't know, while she learned how to use her "luck", it was also noted that she was subconsciously burning pewter, which helped her survive constant beating.

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

The thing is, koloss don’t really need to know anything about the outside world. They just need to be able to mentally examine their body well enough to find the metal reserve. The case of Spook proves you have to look for the reserve, since he couldn’t immediately sense the pewter he drank despite having ability and metal. But it’s hard to tell what that act entails since it’s so natural for humans.

With which I think there would be a problem. They've been ignoring their own wounds, what makes you think that they can examine themselves and find out they have something to burn, not to mention understand what burning is? Subconsciously - maybe (depending on how much human body's instincts they still have), but they won't be able to uncover Allomancy and use it to their advantage.

12 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

There are also other possibilites for why Human said it “wasn’t right”. Like cometaryorbit suggested, he might’ve found it wrong that Vin didn’t know how to make koloss. I severely doubt the problem is hurting someone since koloss already do that without any problem. Nevertheless, Human did give what he believed to be an explanation. After that, he clams up, in large part because he doesn’t think it’s right to explain further. He only uses the spikes after Vin compels him to do what he is thinking of.

And that's the problem. He said a few works, yes, which in his mind were enough, but they weren't. They didn't tell Vin almost anything. He lacks the mental capacity to communicate on an understandable level. He is smarter than most koloss, yet still can't talk much. 

His "wasn’t right" came after he asked her if Vin was fighting, so maybe in their new society it was the oldest and strongest who created new Koloss, thus he thinks that it's her job, as the strongest. So it wasn’t right for him to perform that role. It's really hard to say what he had in mind based on just a few short words.