Frustration's Firepower Index: Taldain

[Frustration]

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index, a collection of threads where I compare and rank various Cosmere worlds and magic systems. This thread will be focused on the world of Taldain, as it appears in the White Sand graphic novels, with additional information from WoBs, and TLM

 

Shards: Autonomy is active in Taldain, actively progressing their technology, and influencing their planet. 2/4.5

 

Dawnshards: Taldain has no known Dawnshards. 0/1

 

Defenses: Autonomy has done something to cut off travel to Taldain, and even if someone made it through to the planet they would either be locked on dayside with its perpetual sun, high temperature, and lack of water for people who don't know how to gather it from Dorim vines, not to mention the sandlings in deep sand areas. or Darkside with it's perpetual twilight and harsh UV radiation, with powerful storms raging in the oceans between the two continents. Both of which would be deadly to non-natives.

Spoiler

BlackYeti

How did you get the temperature differential between the two halves of the planet such that life could survive on both sides and travel between them?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, yeah. We've got a couple things going on here that are helping with it. The thing about Darkside is-- And I've had to run this through my physicists, and they're all kind of "Ehhh", so we're still working on the physics-- But the idea is there is a light source over there, but it works like a black light. And so, there's warmth, and there's radiation, and that's why people over there are dark-skinned. They've actually adapted to this radiation, there's a lot of UV and things like that. But there is-- It works like a black light. So for a Daysider going over, it's all-- it feels dark and dim, but it's more twilight-ish than it is completely dark, if that makes sense. And with that and with... jet-streams and stuff we were able to kind of justify it mostly. I mean, it's still going to be colder on the other side and things. But I didn't want it to be like snowing and things like that, all the time over there. And so we kind of had to do some jumping through hoops astrologically to make it work.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

5.5/5.5

 

Offenses: Autonomy has forbidden travel to and from Taldain, preventing most native forces from leaving. However, the men of Gold and Red are capable of going to other worlds. -0.5/1

 

Natural Advantages: Taldain has no natural advantages 0/2

 

Armed forces: Lossand, Kerzta and the Dynasty make up the most powerful nations in the world, along with Autonomy's personal army.

• Lossand has an established army and navy, while also having a monopoly on the powers of sand mastery
• Kertza has arrow launchers fired by compressed air, and a large population.
• The Dynasty is the most technologically advanced nation, having guns centuries before any other nation, not just on Taldain but in the cosmere Additionally they are lead by Skathan, an immortal with strange and unknown powers. They also have Starmarks.
• The Men of Gold and Red are known to be incredibly dangerous and hard to control, while also able to subdue entire worlds.

The only notable conflict is between Kertza and Lossand, which are not currently at war, and have some level of trade relations, even if tensions are high between them. 7.5/12

 

Economics and technology: Taldain is the most technologically advanced world in the Cosmere

Spoiler

yafeshan

I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is Scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a bunch of reasons.

The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people.

Scadrial has an advanced understanding of metallurgy, and for many years was quietly open to visitors from across the cosmere. In the modern era, that has enhanced. It's a much safer place to visit than, say, Sel, Threnody, or First of the Sun.

There are other reasons, too, which we'll get into as the world progresses. Having some prominent cosmere-aware people pulling strings behind the scenes is a big help. If you know other worlds are out there, and are populated, then you're more likely to push toward space travel.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 8, 2017)

Autonomy also frequently advances Taldain's technology, meaning they either have, or will soon acquire, rockets, radio, videos, and so much more. 7.5/7.5

 

 

Logistics:

• On world: Taldain has overseas shipping, and developed mercantile systems. 1/10
• Off World: Taldain has no off world logistical developments, though Autonomy can create perpendicularities off world, though that takes a long time. 0.5/3

 

Intelligence: Taldain is such an odd planet it would be almost impossible for one of them to infiltrate another world, given how unusual they would find day/night cycles, and most daysiders fear of the dark. However Autonomy has several seed religions around the Cosmere she can use to acquire information. 0.5/10.5

 

Counterintelligence: Taldain's lack of a day/night cycle would make any opposing agents stand out, as they would be unused to the constant daylight, or twilight. 1/9

 

Allies: While being the most isolationist planet, Taldain ironically is also the only planet with allies due to Autonomy's influence throughout the cosmere, taking over entire planets, who's populations and resources could be used to Aid Taldain. 1/1

 

Notable uses of investiture: White sand can detect kinetic investiture. +1

 

Overall total: 27/67

 

Recommended strategies: Taldain is very hard to invade, but lacks the ability to project power away from their planet, but given that this is due to Autonomy's influence I don't see this changing soon. The only way I can see this score increasing is by using technology to help them both logistically and with intelligence.

 

As always what do you think? Did I miss something, or is there something from the Ombinous that should be up here? And What should I work on next.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

Access to terken oil which seems to nullify Investiture in a way similar to either aluminum or silver.

Access to Investiture is probably even more easy than on Roshar given that it is delivered by the sun rather than having to wait for a storm to come by.

Starmarks which we don't really have specifics of but can be used to make blades and shield capable of stopping bullets.

You kinda just glossed over sandmastery. I don't really see it as very helpful in large scale war efforts but maybe discuss some strengths and weaknesses

Do we know if the men of red and gold originate from taldain or are they possibly from another planet Autonomy controls.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Access to terken oil which seems to nullify Investiture in a way similar to either aluminum or silver.

We don't know yet if that's all Investiture, or if it's just Snadmastery. Unless the Omnibus said something

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Starmarks which we don't really have specifics of but can be used to make blades and shield capable of stopping bullets.

Huh, interesting.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

You kinda just glossed over sandmastery. I don't really see it as very helpful in large scale war efforts but maybe discuss some strengths and weaknesses

I don't tend to go in depth on magic systems when doing the world page, through I will eventually to a Sand Mastery page.

1 hour ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Do we know if the men of red and gold originate from taldain or are they possibly from another planet Autonomy controls.

No idea. The only thing we really know about their origins is that they use a magic system we know about, and are from a world we know.

Spoiler

KandraAllomancer

Are the men of gold and red from any Shardworld we've seen so far? Do they use any magic system we currently know?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Maybe not only, but yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16007

 

 

 

[lacrossedeamon]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We don't know yet if that's all Investiture, or if it's just Snadmastery. Unless the Omnibus said something

From the way it's presented it doesn't stop sandmastery directly; it devests the sand itself.

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

From the way it's presented it doesn't stop sandmastery directly; it devests the sand itself.

Not really, because it can touch regular sand without turning it black, it's only when the sand is being mastered that it has an effect.

[cometaryorbit]

I'm not sure that the Men of Gold and Red really belong in the same entry as White Sand era Taldain. Even if they were definitely from Taldain (and I think that's very likely, but that WoB suggests they might not be 100% local) there's an enormous time gap - it would be like combining Alendi era Scadrial, era 1 Scadrial and era 2 Scadrial.

[Frustration]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure that the Men of Gold and Red really belong in the same entry as White Sand era Taldain. Even if they were definitely from Taldain (and I think that's very likely, but that WoB suggests they might not be 100% local) there's an enormous time gap - it would be like combining Alendi era Scadrial, era 1 Scadrial and era 2 Scadrial.

Do we know when the men of Gold and Red were formed?

[cometaryorbit]

AFAIK we don't... I just don't think we can assume they exist at the same time as White Sand, because Era 2 is likely a thousand+ years later, right?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

AFAIK we don't... I just don't think we can assume they exist at the same time as White Sand, because Era 2 is likely a thousand+ years later, right?

I'm not saying that they did, just that we cannot assume that they didn't.

 

Now, I feel it would be best to explain my full reasoning for including them. The purpose of the Index is to give as comprehensive an analysis of each world as far we we know about them. While true the men of Gold and Red are first intorduced over a thousand years after the graphic novels, I feel that excluding them would be less helpful to analysing the combat capabilities of Taldain than including them.

[lacrossedeamon]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really, because it can touch regular sand without turning it black, it's only when the sand is being mastered that it has an effect.

The Coppermind is actually inconsistent here. Some places say "mastered" sand which implies it only nullifies kinetic investiture, while other places say "Invested" sand which implies kinetic or static. Obviously it wouldn't do anything to regular sand.

In regards to MoGaR I think they should only be mentioned as a possible asset in the Shard or Allies section since we have not seen them on Taldain (unless you plan to also include them for First of the Sun which still feels weird).

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

In regards to MoGaR I think they should only be mentioned as a possible asset in the Shard or Allies section since we have not seen them on Taldain (unless you plan to also include them for First of the Sun which still feels weird).

First of the Sun isn't part of Autonomy's empire yet, even if she has an avatar there. Now if it were part of the empire fully then yes I would, but as of now no.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

First of the Sun isn't part of Autonomy's empire yet, even if she has an avatar there. Now if it were part of the empire fully then yes I would, but as of now no.

This feels as unsubstantiable as saying Taldain has direct access to the MoRaG.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

This feels as unsubstantiable as saying Taldain has direct access to the MoRaG.

We know from Telsin and Shai that people in Autonomy's empire live under her rule. We know from Sixth of the Dusk, and the Kingmaker sample chapters that first of the Sun does not. Scadrial had an avatar, but they weren't part of her empire, Sel might have an avatar, but they certainly aren't either.

And the men of Gold and Red are Autonomy's personal army, if anyone has access to them she does.

[lacrossedeamon]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

We know from Telsin and Shai that people in Autonomy's empire live under her rule. We know from Sixth of the Dusk, and the Kingmaker sample chapters that first of the Sun does not. Scadrial had an avatar, but they weren't part of her empire, Sel might have an avatar, but they certainly aren't either.

And the men of Gold and Red are Autonomy's personal army, if anyone has access to them she does.

Would you say that Taldain as seen in White Sand live under her rule?

Edited January 22, 2023 by lacrossedeamon

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Would you say that Taldain as seen in White Sand live under her rule?

As of white sand no, at least not all of it, depends on how Skathan relates to her.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

As of white sand no, at least not all of it, depends on how Skathan relates to her.

So how do we know what her rule actually looks like and that Sixth of the Dusk doesn't show it?

[Frustration]

Just now, lacrossedeamon said:

So how do we know what her rule actually looks like and that Sixth of the Dusk doesn't show it?

SotD2 spoilers

Spoiler

Because Scadrians and Rosharans are both trying to take over the planet and she doesn't do anything about it.

 

[lacrossedeamon]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

SotD2 spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Because Scadrians and Rosharans are both trying to take over the planet and she doesn't do anything about it.

 

Just because we the readers don't see her doing anything in in a very short excerpt told from the POV of a cosmere unaware character is a very flimsy basis for a position.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Just because we the readers don't see her doing anything in in a very short excerpt told from the POV of a cosmere unaware character is a very flimsy basis for a position.

The fact that they are able to get to the planet at all shows that Autonomy isn't doing anything.

[lacrossedeamon]

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The fact that they are able to get to the planet at all shows that Autonomy isn't doing anything.

Or the fact that they seem to be limited to approaching the planet from the physical realm only and maybe even the Prime Directive like restrictions on contact implies she is doing something.

[alder24]

I consider Autonomy's Avatars as a great intelligence asset rather than a fighting force. Just look at the Set. Set didn't have a big armed force. And like Set, Avatars and her organizations spread across Cosmere can provide a foothold for the incoming invasion, destabilize any government and a region before the invasion and provide useful information. But considering other planets as a fighting force in favor of Taldain is too much. However the Man of Gold and Red are private army of Autonomy. Anywhere she is involved, they would be as well, both in defense or offense. And Autonomy is an extreme control freak, so she would be involved in any offensive Taldain would take, as without her approval, they wouldn't get off the planet in the first place.

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Or the fact that they seem to be limited to approaching the planet from the physical realm only and maybe even the Prime Directive like restrictions on contact implies she is doing something.

Shards have the ability to move planets, you're telling me she wouldn't just send an asteroid to take them out if they tried to approach?

She wouldn't even allow native Taldainians back onto the planet, why would she allow off worlders?

[lacrossedeamon]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Shards have the ability to move planets, you're telling me she wouldn't just send an asteroid to take them out if they tried to approach?

She wouldn't even allow native Taldainians back onto the planet, why would she allow off worlders?

Sounds like stuff like that might open her up to retaliation from other Shards.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Sounds like stuff like that might open her up to retaliation from other Shards.

No other shards are in residence on First of the Sun, so that's a non-issue, even if it would.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Frustration

[lacrossedeamon]

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No other shards are in residence on First of the Sun, so that's a non-issue, even if it would.

We got Scadrians and Rosharans there in more concerted efforts than just random worldhoppers, silly to think their Shards wouldn't be taking an active interest in it.