Has Sazed already become Discord in TLM?

[SingleSoul he/him]

From what I gather, Sazed has been keeping some kind of balance between the shards through nonintervention. Brandon has said that maintaining this balance over the centuries will be difficult. I guess the shards will not remain content with this nonintervention for ever. They will want to take action to preserve or to destroy.

Khriss says in the Ars Arcanum that Ruin is subservient to Preservation in the current vessel (Harmony). This seems to mean that the shards currently isn't in balance. How can there be true harmony if one shard is subservient to the other?

In TLM ch. 15 VenDell remarks that Harmonium cannot be divided. “Not so long as Harmony remains Harmony…” Wax then proceeds to split Harmonium. Shouldn't this mean that Sazed is no longer Harmony at this point. Perhaps he has not been for some time?

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

I think Discord isn't an on/off switch. But I think Sazed is slipping, that's clear. I don't think harmonium's splitting is a result of Discord, although the fact Wax got atium and lerasium out of it might be. Especially if it's resulting in more atium than lerasium. (Not sure if Sazed is just lying to Kelsier about not getting lerasium or not... either way is interesting.) I predict he'll be Discord by at least the end of the first Era 3 book.

Another thing is that Trell-Telsin (and therefore Autonomy) knew what Discord was. That to me is... scary. 

[SingleSoul he/him]

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Another thing is that Trell-Telsin (and therefore Autonomy) knew what Discord was. That to me is... scary. 

Yeah, it’s worrying that Telsin/Autonomy knows about Discord. I’m not sure they know the meaning of it though. (Neither do we...) I also think it’s interesting that Khriss don’t seem to mention the conflict of balance. She only states that Ruin currently is subservient (as if that’s not an issue at all...) 

I agree that Discord probaly isn’t on/off. But I do think that Sazed could be a lot further down along this path than I (at least) thought prior to TLM. 

[lacrossedeamon]

I think Sazed has always been Discord but calling himself Harmony in the same way Rayse called himself Passion instead of Odium. We know over time the Intent corrupts the Vessel. I think Discord has been corrupting Sazed since he picked up both Shards. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Alendi knew what Discord was. Or had a slight idea. That was part of the prophecy, that they’ll call him Discord and love him for it. 

[lacrossedeamon]

I still think those Prophecies are cosmere wide with multiple applicants. Vasher, Dalinar, possibly Raoden, and maybe even Hoid himself all seem to fit.

[Eahlendell]

I would agree that Sazed is farther down the road than initially believed. This quote doesn’t feel very Sazed

“I,” Kelsier said, “am going to protect our people. Whatever it costs. Please tell me I won’t ever have to protect them from you.”
“That depends,” Sazed said, “entirely upon you, old friend.”

What would Kelsier have to do for Harmony to abandon or even harm the people of Scadrial. 

I always felt that the end of Mistborn Era 1 was tied up beautifully. I am not complaining about the new material expanding on this but it took me a long time to get into Era 2. When Sazed ascended I was in awe of how everything tied up so neatly. 

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

I would agree that Sazed is farther down the road than initially believed. This quote doesn’t feel very Sazed

“I,” Kelsier said, “am going to protect our people. Whatever it costs. Please tell me I won’t ever have to protect them from you.”
“That depends,” Sazed said, “entirely upon you, old friend.”

What would Kelsier have to do for Harmony to abandon or even harm the people of Scadrial. 

I don't interpret it this way. It depends only on Kelsier deciding that Harmony is doing harm or causing danger to Scadrial for some reason. It doesn't mean that Harmony will harm people, it means that Kelsier might think that is the case. Afterall Kel has a habit of conspiring to kill gods.

Also Sazed has future vision, he could already see the future in which Kel is opposing him or even in which he turn into Discord. He might just suggest to Kel that it only depends on Kel which way their relation will go.

[danex he/him]

I don't think sazed is discord in TLM, but he is shown to be slipping enough that by the time Tress happens i'd be he is. Just look at the kandra.

[lacrossedeamon]

Well there is the quote, from Sazed’s POV even, that he was never in balance which by a strict interpretation of the term means he could never have truly been Harmony.

[Frustration he/him]

27 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Well there is the quote, from Sazed’s POV even, that he was never in balance which by a strict interpretation of the term means he could never have truly been Harmony.

Harmony was the intent that the shard wanted.

Spoiler

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Harmony was the intent that the shard wanted.

  Hide contents

Argent

When Sazed picked up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin, did he actively choose to be known as Harmony (instead of, for example, Balance, or Equilibrium, or Stability), or is there some Cosmeric law that says Preservation + Ruin = Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He chose the name, but in part because it FELT right to him.

Argent

Is this similar to how a Shard's "personality" overwrites the Shardholder's over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Similar, yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 17, 2015)

 

Well like I basically said earlier I’m sure Passion felt right to Rayse.

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Well like I basically said earlier I’m sure Passion felt right to Rayse.

Well Passion is an important part of Odium

Spoiler

Valhalla

Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they would.

Valhalla

Would any of them not talk about it that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Excellent, good questions.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

[lacrossedeamon]

Sure but still doesn’t address Sazed saying he’s never been in balance.

[SingleSoul he/him]

7 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Well there is the quote, from Sazed’s POV even, that he was never in balance which by a strict interpretation of the term means he could never have truly been Harmony.

That’s a very good point. I’d forgotten about that, and will have to look back into this. Do you by any chance remember where this is from? Anyway it fits well with my overall impression of Sazed, both as we know him from Era 1 and what we see on page of his actions as Harmony. He has always seemed to lean towards preservation. (Saving a lot of people is basically the first thing he does as a new Vessel.)

Then there is this WOB saying the intents match very well.

Spoiler

zotsandcrambles

You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kellsier

Is Harmony ([Sazed], for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 17, 2015)

So I guess that Sazed intellectually understands the need for a balance, and he has enough of an intent to keep this balance that he was able to pick up and merge the shards into Harmony. But his personality and morals (if that is a valid term for a Vessel) leads him to preserve more over time, even as he understands the need for destruction and decay. The imbalance grows because what little actions Sazed actually takes are generally towards protecting and preserving.

[lacrossedeamon]

58 minutes ago, SingleSoul said:

That’s a very good point. I’d forgotten about that, and will have to look back into this. Do you by any chance remember where this is from?

Epilogue 4:

Spoiler

Sazed remained there, seated, with his eyes closed. And damn, looking at him was disorienting. On the surface was his friend, the calm Terrisman. But he extended. Somehow he was the very stone they were sitting on. The city. The planet. And beyond.

And there was a darkness within him. A different face from the one he showed. The powers were in imbalance. Ruin had always been stronger.

I will make an addendum this is actually Kelsier’s PoV thus susceptible I feel to more unreliable narrator. But it lines up with a lot of WoBs about Ruin being stronger.

Edited January 18, 2023 by lacrossedeamon

[Eahlendell]

Random thought.

I wonder what the population density was on Scadrial during Era 1. If each person has a small amount of additional preservation to grant them salience, would the number of people on Scadrial count.

 

When Harmony remade the world there would have been fewer humans than in Era 2. As technology advances and the population density grows would this cause the imbalance between ruin and preservation to grow.

I hope that makes sense. 100k humans at the end of Era 1 versus several billion by Era 3. If that extra bit of Preservation is causing the inbalance, increasing the population a hundred fold would surely impact Preservations total power ( recognising that there are different levels of infinity). 

[lacrossedeamon]

47 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

Random thought.

I wonder what the population density was on Scadrial during Era 1. If each person has a small amount of additional preservation to grant them salience, would the number of people on Scadrial count.

 

When Harmony remade the world there would have been fewer humans than in Era 2. As technology advances and the population density grows would this cause the imbalance between ruin and preservation to grow.

I hope that makes sense. 100k humans at the end of Era 1 versus several billion by Era 3. If that extra bit of Preservation is causing the inbalance, increasing the population a hundred fold would surely impact Preservations total power ( recognising that there are different levels of infinity). 

The Preservation in humanity causes it to be weaker in the Shard not more. It’s why Ruin was able to kill Leras the first go around. More humans would cause Sazed to imbalance away from Preservation not towards it.

Also several billion for era three is very generous. The average doubling time on earth is 60 years. Scadrial’s total population is probably less (probably a lot less) than 250 million currently. Even taking a fast doubling time of 30 years Scadrial would just be hitting 1 billion 60 years after TLM. Era 3 is 1980’s level development so technically about 80 years from Era 2’s level but they seem to be progressing faster than Earth did.

[SingleSoul he/him]

4 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Epilogue 4:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sazed remained there, seated, with his eyes closed. And damn, looking at him was disorienting. On the surface was his friend, the calm Terrisman. But he extended. Somehow he was the very stone they were sitting on. The city. The planet. And beyond.

And there was a darkness within him. A different face from the one he showed. The powers were in imbalance. Ruin had always been stronger.

I will make an addendum this is actually Kelsier’s PoV thus susceptible I feel to more unreliable narrator. But it lines up with a lot of WoBs about Ruin being stronger.

Thank you! So Kelsier thinks it's Ruin being the stronger shard that cause the imbalance. That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm thinking - that Sazed leaning too much towards preservation causes imbalance. Guess we'll se eventually. 

4 hours ago, Eahlendell said:

Random thought.

I wonder what the population density was on Scadrial during Era 1. If each person has a small amount of additional preservation to grant them salience, would the number of people on Scadrial count.

 

When Harmony remade the world there would have been fewer humans than in Era 2. As technology advances and the population density grows would this cause the imbalance between ruin and preservation to grow.

I hope that makes sense. 100k humans at the end of Era 1 versus several billion by Era 3. If that extra bit of Preservation is causing the inbalance, increasing the population a hundred fold would surely impact Preservations total power ( recognising that there are different levels of infinity). 

 

3 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

The Preservation in humanity causes it to be weaker in the Shard not more. It’s why Ruin was able to kill Leras the first go around. More humans would cause Sazed to imbalance away from Preservation not towards it.

Also several billion for era three is very generous. The average doubling time on earth is 60 years. Scadrial’s total population is probably less (probably a lot less) than 250 million currently. Even taking a fast doubling time of 30 years Scadrial would just be hitting 1 billion 60 years after TLM. Era 3 is 1980’s level development so technically about 80 years from Era 2’s level but they seem to be progressing faster than Earth did.

Another random thought on population. What happens when scadrians start leaving the planet in later Eras? Will they take part of Preservation with them away from Scadrial? Are those pieces lost forever if scadrians die offworld? Or is it all connected on the spiritual level regardless of physical location? 

[Ashbringer he/him]

Spiritual Realm stuff tends not to matter for location. Technically bits of Preservation are everywhere, because it makes up anything that preserves (I think).

I do wonder if Sazed is making atium somewhere else, though. That's how Leras beat the power imbalance, locking some of Ruin's power in the atium cycle. But for that we need to know where that atium power goes when it's burned (either by Elend and the Mistfallen or by Marsh), which... I don't think we do. Something I'd want to ask if I ever end up at a convention.

[lacrossedeamon]

2 hours ago, SingleSoul said:

Thank you! So Kelsier thinks it's Ruin being the stronger shard that cause the imbalance. That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm thinking - that Sazed leaning too much towards preservation causes imbalance. Guess we'll se eventually. 

So Khriss in the Ars Arcanum notes that Ruin is subservient to Preservation which I take to mean that while Ruin is stronger than Preservation Sazed own personal Intent is what is tipping the scales but it is specifically this that keeps him tied up rather than the actual dichotomous nature of the Shards and as time goes on he will be less able to keep Ruin’s Intent suppressed.

[Eahlendell]

Sorry everyone. I originally meant that over time the balance would shift more towards ruin due to the increased amount of humans with that extra piece of preservation.

[cometaryorbit]

4 hours ago, SingleSoul said:

Thank you! So Kelsier thinks it's Ruin being the stronger shard that cause the imbalance. That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm thinking - that Sazed leaning too much towards preservation causes imbalance. Guess we'll se eventually.

Personally, I think it's both things causing the problem.

Ruin is stronger but Sazed is forcing Preservation to dominate. Even when seeking a sword, he says 'destroy in order to protect' - Preservation is the goal, Ruin only a tool.

 

[SingleSoul he/him]

Seems there really could be two slightly different imbalances.

The first is the conflict between the old shards where Ruin is stronger than Preservation. This I think could cause the Intent of the new shard Harmony to shift over time.

The second is that Sazed's personal Intent is not (never was?) in complete accordance with his shard. This would create an imbalance even if the shard itself wasn’t also shifting. This imbalance could increase If Sazed lets himself be pushed to more action - by Wax or Kelsier. 

So now we could have the situation where the shard's intent shift in one direction and Sazed's actions in the other.

12 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

So Khriss in the Ars Arcanum notes that Ruin is subservient to Preservation which I take to mean that while Ruin is stronger than Preservation Sazed own personal Intent is what is tipping the scales but it is specifically this that keeps him tied up rather than the actual dichotomous nature of the Shards and as time goes on he will be less able to keep Ruin’s Intent suppressed.

I agree that it’s Sazed’s own personal Intent that has been holding Ruin in this subservient role. I’ve also been wondering what Sazed's inability to act really means. Does it mean that he really can’t act in any way? Or is it more that he can’t act in the way he wants to? Could there be ruinous actions open to Sazed that he chooses not to take?

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Ruin is stronger but Sazed is forcing Preservation to dominate. Even when seeking a sword, he says 'destroy in order to protect' - Preservation is the goal, Ruin only a tool.

Yeah, when first reading the book it felt like Wax really was more Preservation's sword.

I also think the whole manipulating others to act in his place-thing is not a viable solution over time. I guess it could be a way to get something done in the short term, but I don’t think it will help with the imbalance in the long run. It seems to simple imo.

Edited January 19, 2023 by SingleSoul

[Leuthie]

8 hours ago, SingleSoul said:

Seems there really could be two slightly different imbalances.

The first is the conflict between the old shards where Ruin is stronger than Preservation. This I think could cause the Intent of the new shard Harmony to shift over time.

The second is that Sazed's personal Intent is not (never was?) in complete accordance with his shard. This would create an imbalance even if the shard itself wasn’t also shifting. This imbalance could increase If Sazed lets himself be pushed to more action - by Wax or Kelsier. 

Sazed's personality matches the combined Shard's intent:

Quote

zotsandcrambles

You've mentioned that a person's personality eventually erodes and is replaced by the will of the shard they hold. Besides Harmony, are there any Shards holders that are still actively and significantly defying the intent of their shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Kellsier

Is Harmony ([Sazed], for instance) actively trying to fight against it's shard intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Its intent(s) match Sazed very well, actually, and he has the philosophy that these natural powers are best minded and not dominated. So while he pushes back against the inaction holding both of them has caused, he appreciates and understands the need for both. I'd say he has less "push back" than some others.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 17, 2015)

The problem with the Shards has nothing to do with Sazed. Sazed is the best person to hold this particular combination. The problem is integral to the Shards themselves. They are at odds with each other. Sazed has to mediate the war going on between the two halves, resulting in his inactivity. Most actions would go against one Shard or the other, so his actions are limited.

Ruin is "stronger" than Preservation. Sazed will be changed by the Shards over time. The imbalance will skew that change in a particular direction. That change in personality will be explored in Era 3:

Quote

darklordreddit

With bits and pieces of the respective pieces of Harmony still laying about, is Harmony actually skewed in one way or another if slightly and does Sazed's personality circumvent this in any way ?

Brandon Sanderson

Personality can always circumvent the powers--it just gets harder and harder to hold out as centuries pass.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 7, 2015)

Quote

Mojonero

In Era 1 there was an imbalance between Ruin and Preservation because humans had a bit more Preservation than Ruin in them. After Harmony became a thing did this imbalance become [ir]relevant because both powers turned into one, or is it something Sazed had (or has) to deal with?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a RAFO for now--should come up in Era 3.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 5, 2021)  

 

Even if Ruin becomes more prevalent over time, resulting in an Intent change to Discord (and a new metal, discordium), it will still be Sazed struggling to mediate between two opposing Shards. Adonalsium had, effectively, 16 Shards to contend with, as do we all. Preservation will always temper the destructive forces of Ruin, Ruin will always shake up the stasis imposed by Preservation, and Sazed will always be pushed to inactivity by the opposition. I get the feeling this will come up in Era 3 and have an effect on the outcomes but won't be the central conflict. If it is the central conflict, Sazed is going to fix it by picking up a third Shard. 

The real question: What Shards would break up the stalemate and which one would be best? Wisdom? The triad should result in the Serenity Shard:

"God, grant me the Preservation to accept the things I cannot change, the Ruin to change the things I can, and the Wisdom to know the difference" 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Leuthie