Love Kalladin, but he's a coward.

[Romuless]

As with many my favorite character, as is intended for us guys at least I think by Brandon, was Kalladin. Love the arc of his story, it's a great thing in many ways redemption and recovering from being broken.  However there are many good people who are dead, and likely many more good people are going to die, because Kalladin is "too noble" to kill certain people.  I hate to even term it that way.  It's not a real thing.  I get it, Moash was his best friend in the bridges.  The king, Teft, Teft's Spren, and Jezrien none of these people had to die, Kalladin could have protected them, but instead he continuously enables a mass murdering psychopath to go on killing more innocent people.  Kalladin has protected a lot of people, done a lot of good things, but this block he has about doing what needs to be done is not realistic to me.  He stood around watching someone murder a child's father while the father held the child in their arms, powerless because "but but no one deserves to die"... Sorry Moash does deserve to die. Moash didn't get screwed by anyone.  He had a petty grudge and plotted to assassinate the king, then eventually murdered the king horrifically with his son in his arms, and all Kalladin can do is watch? 

Moash and Kalladin are both cowards, and it infuriates me that Teft is dead because Kalladin can't do what he needs to to protect the people who deserve it.

 

"I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right.... Unless I really liked that person at some point then I'll let them kill you, whoops sorry!" 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Romuless

[S. Stormy she/her]

I don't think it was a conscious decision not to kill Moash. It was more of freezing up. Kaladin has severe "battle shock", or PTSD. And at the end of RoW, keep in mind that Kaladin didn't realize that Moash was there, so he couldn't kill him. And after Roshone's death, Kaladin doesn't want to stab his former best friend in the face when Moash won't fight back. Kaladin usually only kills people in combat, not in cold blood.

That's just my input, feel free to continue your opinion!

[Olmund]

Your feelings as a reader make sense, because you're seeing a character that was previously a (well-written) power fantasy fail completely -- thus leading to terrible consequences. During the first two books, it was safe to let yourself live through Kaladin's experience vicariously -- because you knew that no matter how bad it got, when the chips were down, Kaladin would come out on top and justice would be served. None of his failures up to that point were really "his;" he didn't have the power to make things different, so it wasn't a personal blow to you as the reader when he "failed." Now that he has the power, it hurts a lot more when he fails in a situation where he does (on paper) have the power to stop the bad stuff from happening.

Now, Kaladin has an additional role -- he's still a power fantasy (though that role will probably conclude in KoWaT), but as Shallan_Stormblessed mentioned he's also a depiction of how people deal with personal failure, trauma and mental illness -- as such, if you grow too attached to him and live through him vicariously you are in for some emotional gut punches.

Personally, I have a different (but related) issue with how Kaladin has evolved. He's just too capable in combat, even in situations where he has way too many things stacked against him (no radiant powers, or severely limited powers; intelligent opponents that have had millenia to refine their skills, etc.). I feel like Brandon has powercrept him way too high because he feels like "Kaladin will do some insane combat stuff at the end of the book" is a part of his contract with the reader at this point. It's one of the few respects in which I feel like Stormlight Archive is suffering from sequelitis. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Olmund

[Romuless]

35 minutes ago, Olmund said:

Your feelings as a reader make sense, because you're seeing a character that was previously a (well-written) power fantasy fail completely -- thus leading to terrible consequences. During the first two books, it was safe to let yourself live through Kaladin's experience vicariously -- because you knew that no matter how bad it got, when the chips were down, Kaladin would come out on top and justice would be served. None of his failures up to that point were really "his;" he didn't have the power to make things different, so it wasn't a personal blow to you as the reader when he "failed." Now that he has the power, it hurts a lot more when he fails in a situation where he does (on paper) have the power to stop the bad stuff from happening.

Now, Kaladin has an additional role -- he's still a power fantasy (though that role will probably conclude in KoWaT), but as Shallan_Stormblessed mentioned he's also a depiction of how people deal with personal failure, trauma and mental illness -- as such, if you grow too attached to him and live through him vicariously you are in for some emotional gut punches.

Personally, I have a different (but related) issue with how Kaladin has evolved. He's just too capable in combat, even in situations where he has way too many things stacked against him (no radiant powers, or severely limited powers; intelligent opponents that have had millenia to refine their skills, etc.). I feel like Brandon has powercreeped him way too high because he feels like "Kaladin will do some insane combat stuff at the end of the book" is a part of his contract with the reader at this point. It's one of the few respects in which I feel like Stormlight Archive is suffering from sequelitis. 

My view of it is this.  If I knew that Kaladin let Elhokar be murdered, standing there doing nothing about it, I would not trust Gavinor's safety to the man.  His duty was to protect the King on the trip, and he did nothing.  He's proven time and time again in serious situations he will freeze up.  It would be ludicrous to assume all the other Windrunners have his mental issue.  Even if they aren't all as good of fighters at least they will actually have the mental capacity to do their job.  If I was Dalinar I wouldn't trust him to bodyguard anyone.  There's no telling when he will totally lose control of himself and be of no use to anyone.  Even after swearing the fourth ideal at the end of RoW I expect he will continue this trajectory of letting good, and innocent people die because he can't bring himself to be a grown up in war.  He wants war to be his childhood fantasy of what war is, and Jasnah is more than right to mock his childish understanding of the world.

Someone who understands war should lead the Windrunners. Kaladin has made it clear he doesn't get what's happening and doesn't take the stakes seriously enough.  It's not Hugslight that was just discovered in RoW, it's Warlight.  We don't need fancy duels in the sky for the thrill  of the contest to win a war.  If Kaladin can't understand that and grow up he shouldn't be in charge of the Windrunners ever again.  I don't mean he should totally leave and not be a character in the story anymore, not at all, but he should not command one of the  war's primary military units.  He's not fit for that job, IMO. Making him "fit" for it somehow in the future seems a stretch to me without him coming to terms with the realities of war in a way that he's been entirely unwilling to accept through the series.  I love the compassion  of his character, but there's a difference between soaking in raw empathy at all times to the point of being  frozen and compassion for even your enemy while still knowing you have to fight a real war.

When Moash killed Teft and destroyed his spren, I gave up on Kaladin ever being able to do what he needed to to protect those important to him.  He had a chance all the way back in Hearthstone to take Moash out.  Murdering people and then throwing your sword on the ground doesn't make you a helpless victim.  If all it takes for Kaladin to let people murder whoever they want is for them not to raise a weapon against him he's the most pathetic bodyguard ever to live.  Basically the argument is Moash could chop Jasnah's head off right in front of Kaladin and then throw his sword on the ground and  Kaladin would stand there like a statue going "derp oh noes it's my good friend of a single/couple years he's a psychopathic mass murderer but I just can't do anything he threw his sword down guys!".   He's not a war leader, and he's not a bodyguard as he's already proven to have failed miserably at that job once, and not because he was outmatched in any way, because he has PTSD.  I can understand why Kaladin is the way he is, but he shouldn't lead.

[Romuless]

3 hours ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

I don't think it was a conscious decision not to kill Moash. It was more of freezing up. Kaladin has severe "battle shock", or PTSD. And at the end of RoW, keep in mind that Kaladin didn't realize that Moash was there, so he couldn't kill him. And after Roshone's death, Kaladin doesn't want to stab his former best friend in the face when Moash won't fight back. Kaladin usually only kills people in combat, not in cold blood.

That's just my input, feel free to continue your opinion!

I think it's problematic for a bodyguard and someone who is sworn to protect to be able to be disabled from defending others simply through not attacking him personally.  The way Kaladin acts someone could kill whoever he is guarding at any given time then throw down their weapons and run away, at the most Kaladin would chase and try to apprehend them, and he wouldn't use deadly force to do so.  How many more people Kaladin cares about does Moash have to kill before executing him on the spot is morally obligatory, not just justifiable?  Does it need to be Kaladin's little brother? If Moash murders him in front of Kaladin's eyes and then throws his sword down again and turns his back does Kaladin just stand there in horror? At this point I'm led to believe that he would indeed just stand there and do nothing. 

This is why I don't think Kaladin is suited to leading a military force.  He should go off and do things on his own with his family and friends, whatever, but he should not lead the Windrunners, IMO.  Any  other Windrunner in Kaladin's situation in Hearthstone would have struck Moash down if possible, defending himself or not, and been perfectly justified in doing it.  Imagine if it was Teft, he would have gutted Moash like a fish and it would have been justice served. Instead Teft, and his tottally innocent spren is dead, destroyed forever.  I understand Kaladin has this issue with PTSD, with freezing when he gets in a situation where he knows he can't protect everyone, which is why he absolutely shouldn't be leading one of the world's most important military forces.  I know he's "taking a break" or whatever from duty, but when he comes back  I would prefer he's not in charge of the Order anymore.

[Olmund]

Your thoughts on Kaladin leading the army/windrunners are voiced in the book by Dalinar himself. That's why he removed Kaladin from his position, and why Kaladin was left behind in Urithiru.

Whether someone else would have tried (and/or succeeded) in taking out Moash either in Hearthstone or during the invasion of Kholinar is a moot point -- Moash was specifically targeting Kaladin and attempting to break his spirit, because Moash thinks that the only way he can absolve himself of guilt is by proving that Kaladin's actions were meaningless. Confrontation between the two was more or less inevitable.

 

[S. Stormy she/her]

1 hour ago, Romuless said:

I think it's problematic for a bodyguard and someone who is sworn to protect to be able to be disabled from defending others simply through not attacking him personally.  The way Kaladin acts someone could kill whoever he is guarding at any given time then throw down their weapons and run away, at the most Kaladin would chase and try to apprehend them, and he wouldn't use deadly force to do so.  How many more people Kaladin cares about does Moash have to kill before executing him on the spot is morally obligatory, not just justifiable?  Does it need to be Kaladin's little brother? If Moash murders him in front of Kaladin's eyes and then throws his sword down again and turns his back does Kaladin just stand there in horror? At this point I'm led to believe that he would indeed just stand there and do nothing. 

I think that you might be overstating this aspect of Kaladin's character...

I mean, he doesn't want to kill Moash, not just because Moash was once his friend, but because he sees himself in Moash. Moash has lost loved ones because of lighteyes, just like Kaladin. Moash has been unjustly enslaved, just like Kaladin. And I think that Kaladin sees Moash as someone Kaladin might be if he hadn't had Syl. And a friend is someone who's hard to kill, in cold blood or otherwise. There's a part in WoR where Kaladin says, "If I kill a man, I'm going to do it in the sunlight, and I'm going to do it because there's no other way", and killing Moash would have been against that. Moash said, "I surrender," and Kaladin was A, shocked to see his former friend randomly in his hometown just at the moment he was there too, B, exhausted mentally and physically from his nonstop fighting, and C, reluctant to kill Moash because of his similarity to Kaladin. Moash knew just what buttons to push in Kaladin's tired, cracked psyche to make him not kill him.

1 hour ago, Romuless said:

This is why I don't think Kaladin is suited to leading a military force.  He should go off and do things on his own with his family and friends, whatever, but he should not lead the Windrunners, IMO.  Any  other Windrunner in Kaladin's situation in Hearthstone would have struck Moash down if possible, defending himself or not, and been perfectly justified in doing it.  Imagine if it was Teft, he would have gutted Moash like a fish and it would have been justice served. Instead Teft, and his tottally innocent spren is dead, destroyed forever.  I understand Kaladin has this issue with PTSD, with freezing when he gets in a situation where he knows he can't protect everyone, which is why he absolutely shouldn't be leading one of the world's most important military forces. 

Kaladin is an amazing leader. He is inspiring and indibnibly good at uniting people, and he's an incredible fighter. And that's why he stayed in command so long: Dalinar knew that Kaladin was, usually, a good enough fighter that he made up for his moments of struggle. Along with that, Dalinar knew that fighting was... all he had left, pretty much. So Dalinar delayed in "firing" him.

He wouldn't normally respond like that. He used to be a better bodyguard in the ways you've mentioned. But years of fighting and loss have taken its toll. He can't really kill, emotionally.

1 hour ago, Romuless said:

I know he's "taking a break" or whatever from duty, but when he comes back  I would prefer he's not in charge of the Order anymore.

I don't think Kaladin's going to be in charge anytime in the foreseeable future, if ever again. He told Dalinar as much at the end of RoW. Also, I don't think Kaladin was aware that Moash was the one to kill Teft, which is why he didn't hunt him down. 

I'm not going to respond to this thread again, because I'm a huge Kaladin fan, and my emotional instinct is to go, "B-B-BUT KALADIN'S AMAZING! HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY BABY!"

 

Which is not great. So I'm going to avoid that possibility. Also, you might want to avoid using the word coward... I mean, PTSD is a real thing, and it could be offensive... 

I know that Kaladin is a well loved character, and so you might not want to be so... hostile, for lack of a better word, on such a controversial topic, I think.

 

G'day!

Edited January 15, 2023 by Shallan Stormblessed

[Romuless]

1 minute ago, Shallan Stormblessed said:

I think that you might be overstating this aspect of Kaladin's character...

I mean, he doesn't want to kill Moash, not just because Moash was once his friend, but because he sees himself in Moash. Moash has lost loved ones because of lighteyes, just like Kaladin. Moash has been unjustly enslaved, just like Kaladin. And I think that Kaladin sees Moash as someone Kaladin might be if he hadn't had Syl. And a friend is someone who's hard to kill, in cold blood or otherwise. There's a part in WoR where Kaladin says, "If I kill a man, I'm going to do it in the sunlight, and I'm going to do it because there's no other way", and killing Moash would have been against that. Moash said, "I surrender," and Kaladin was A, shocked to see his former friend randomly in his hometown just at the moment he was there too, B, exhausted mentally and physically from his nonstop fighting, and C, reluctant to kill Moash because of his similarity to Kaladin. Moash knew just what buttons to push in Kaladin's tired, cracked psyche to make him not kill him.

Kaladin is an amazing leader. He is inspiring and indibnibly good at uniting people, and he's an incredible fighter. And that's why he stayed in command so long: Dalinar knew that Kaladin was, usually, a good enough fighter that he made up for his moments of insensibility. Along with that, Dalinar knew that fighting was... all he had left, pretty much. So Dalinar delayed in "firing" him.

I don't think Kaladin's going to be in charge anytime in the foreseeable future, if ever again. He told Dalinar as much at the end of RoW. Also, I don't think Kaladin was aware that Moash was the one to kill Teft, which is why he didn't hunt him down. 

I'm not going to respond to this thread again, because I'm a huge Kaladin fan, and my emotional instinct is to go, "B-B-BUT KALADIN'S AMAZING! HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY BABY!"

 

Which is not great. So I'm going to avoid that possibility. Also, you might want to avoid using the word coward... I mean, PTSD is a real thing, and it could be offensive... 

I know that Kaladin is a well loved character, and so you might not want to be so... hostile, for lack of a better word, I think.

 

G'day!

Sorry I don't mean to offend, I do feel like that word fits Kaladin in relation to Moash, maybe not overall, he's struggled through a lot of hard situations and shown he is resilient.  However so have many others in the series, through things that are worse than losing a brother, like losing your husband and then thinking you lost your daughter then actually losing your son like Navani did.  Or Jasnah. Either of them  has suffered in horrifying ways, but they push on and grow stronger, face their enemies and do what needs to be done.  I'm not big on trying weigh people's pain against others in general, I think everyone suffers in ways other people can't understand from the rich to the poor, from those with loving families to those with none at all, but even Dalinar has pushed through more than Kaladin.  He found out he was one of the world's greatest mass murderers, who burned his wife alive, and is a total rock of leadership now.  Maybe Kaladin just has more growing to do, but when I think of his arc, the tragedies he has suffered, and those of others.. like I said I don't mean to offend I just think of  everyone else a lot in books, not just the main characters but the consequences for those around them.

[alder24]

The problem I see with Kaladin is that he wants to help everyone too much. He doesn't know where to draw a line. And when he was captured by Parshmens in OB and decided to HELP them, I knew how it's going to end. And it ended so tragically in Kholinar. Kaladin is a great soldier, but he is too good of a person to be a soldier, he still is a surgeon in his heart that needs to help everyone, including Moash. And this is how he always was - he helped boys in Amaram army, and he failed them, he helped slaves escaped several times and he failed them, he try to heal one slave during his way to Shattered Plains, and he failed him, as much as he failed all the Bridgemen that died under his command. He failed them in his mind, while in reality he didn't, it wasn't his fault. And yet despite all of this, he jumped straight into helping his enemy, despite knowing that they are at war with each other, and people close to him will die again from each other's hands, not by his fault, but he will see it as his fault again. After swearing the 4th ideal he is on the right path to overcome his need to help everyone. That's part of his character and his PTSD, he need to learn where to draw the line, so he can fight and kill those who needs to be killed. 

[Marabout]

Don’t apologize

You didn’t say anything offensive.

There are a bunch of Kaladin fanboys/fangirls who get upset by any negative comment about Kaladin or positive comment about Moash.

Thank you for your well thought out opinion.  I agree with parts of it.  The one overall theme I’d like to point out though is that Kaladin isn’t wrong by not “understanding” this war.  Because this war is “wrong” and being fought by two sides who don’t need to be fighting.  One side is being manipulated by their angry ancestors and a hateful God.  Kaladin is Right that they shouldn’t be fighting the Parsh.  He has shown his opponents respect and Honor and even some of the Fused have come around to his way of thinking.  Overall I think the novels are moving in a direction where humans and parshendi realize they aren’t enemies and team up against Odium and the more rabid Fused.

[Elder]

To be clear, in which situation was Kaladin a “coward?”

Surely not the first time he fought Moash, drove him off and saved Elhokar in WoR.

The second time in Oathbringer he froze up from PTSD and a moral crisis coming to a head.  I’m going to go ahead and state plainly:  Mental Health problems do not equal cowardice, and it is inaccurate, counterproductive, and just plain wrong to state otherwise.  I’m sorry to be blunt, but suffice to say it’s an important stand to take.

Should Kaladin have been relieved of duty afterwards?  Hell yes.  Which is what they do in RoW, actively stating it probably should have been done sooner.

as for the 3rd time, in Hearthstone in RoW, see the second.  He still hadn’t healed.  At least that time they took him off active duty.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Elder

[Tglassy]

Did...did y'all read the same books I did? I feel like this has become a regular question for me. 

First, I thought the fact that he was no longer fit for duty was kind of the entire point of RoW?  Like, it's a massive plot point.  The whole point, actually.  He can't do it.  He freezes up too much.  He can't separate his Oaths from his Duty, and he can't help but see everyone as someone he needs to protect. 

The moment in OB when Moash kills Elokhar, Kal was literally watching his men kill his men.  They were all his people. He'd decided to protect all of them, as his Oath required.  So who was he supposed to fight?  He broke at that point. His mind literally broke.  That's what Mental Illness is.  He couldn't cope. He couldn't deal.  He broke.  He was not fit for leadership from that point on, and should have been relieved from duty on the spot.  But he wasn't, not because he's a Coward, but because he's an amazing, inspiring, extraordinarily talented leader.  He took men who were less than nothing and made them into one of the most elite fighting forces on the planet.  He constantly puts himself into harms way to save others.  

And g**d***it, he was in the grips of the most severe Depression of his life in the Tower, and yet he still found the courage to stand up and became Kaladin Stormblessed one more time.  I don't know if you understand the courage it takes to do that when you have to deal with the things Kal has to deal with.  I don't have PTSD, but I do deal with Depression on a daily basis, and makes you believe you are worthless, that everything you do means nothing, and there is no point to moving forward.  Sometimes simply standing up and washing some dishes takes so much mental fortitude that I nearly give up.  

Kal deals with that AND the PTSD, which has scared his soul to the point where he can't make decisions anymore.  If there's any ambiguity on who he's supposed to protect, he can't function.

And that's literally the point of the fourth book.  It isn't to show he's a coward, and quite frankly I am extremely insulted, personally, that you would make that insinuation that someone dealing with mental heal issues is a coward.  It's to show HIS COURAGE.  It was to show what he's dealing with, that his pain and his scars are real, that they are affecting his life and his men, but that IT"S OK.  THERE IS NO SHAME in being asked to step down becaues of your scars.  War wounds all people.  It is a horrible, horrible thing.

And yeah, others went through things that could be considered "Worse" than Kal did.  But that doesn't matter.  They didn't have Kal's heart, nor his experiences, nor his mental health.  They didn't make the same oaths he did, meet the same people, come to care for them, and then watch them murder each other, all while having the heart of someone who CARES.  

By the end of book four, Kal is the most brave character I've read.  Not because he stands up to the Fused or can beat the Pursuer without powers.  Not because he swears the fourth ideal and becomes a god among men.  But becasue he stood up, at the end, to become Kaladin Stormblessed one more time, while in the grips of Depression and believing deep in his soul that he just didn't have anything left to give.  Because all he wanted was for it to be over. And he could have it be over any time he wanted to.  And when he lept to his death...that's not cowardice.  It's despiration.  It's being so overwhelmed that you just need an end.  You just need to be done with it.  Nothing matters.  Nothing is real.  It all just needs to end and he just couldn't deal anymore.  He had just lost his best friend, murdered by his other best friend, who he could have stopped if he hadn't been so broken.  So his friend's death was his fault.  He completely understood and internalized this. He may as well have been the one to kill him.  

Then he watched his father thrown over the side of the tower.  The man who taught him, the man who was always there as a child.  The one man who stood up to Rashon, who helped people regardless of who they were.  The one person in the Tower who didn't deserve to be killed, and he was because of Kaladin. If Kal had listened from the begiinning, Lirin would have been safe.  

And so he lept after him, knowing he couldn't save him, and welcoming the end at the bottom.  

That's not cowardice.  It just isn't.  It's brokenness.  It's being unable to see or think clearly because the Darkness inside blacks out everything else.  It's the REASON Dalinar took him off duty.  Because he understood what was happening.  That this Darkness would consume Kal if he didn't have a chance to heal.  If he ever did heal.  

He needed that time, and he needed that closure that the conversation with Tien gave him.  He needed to forgive himself, which is something those going through Depression need above all.  They need to have compoassion for themselves.  To understand they are not worthless just because they are broken.  That's what the fourth oath was all about.  Forgiving himself that he couldn't protect people.  "I accept there are people I cannot protect".  It's the same thing as "I forgive myself for not being able to protect them."  

Do you know what that tells people who read this book who suffer from the same things Kal does?  It tells them there is a silver lining.  That they can become better.  That pushing forward is worth it.  And those people can use that to help push against the Darkness when it tells its lies.  

If you are unable to understand the Darkness and what it is like to live with day in and day out, then I guess you can look at Kal and think him a coward.  People have often told those with Depression "It's all in your head" and "Just get over it".  As if their feelings aren't real.  If you've never been there, then I envy you.  But the courage shown by Kaladin Stormblessed may very well have saved my life when I was at my lowest.  

[Frustration he/him]

The problem with Kaladin in these situations isn't that he not violent enough, it's that he refuses to do anything that isn't violent. He could just capture people, but to hom it's either fight or do nothing.

[Elder]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The problem with Kaladin in these situations isn't that he not violent enough, it's that he refuses to do anything that isn't violent. He could just capture people, but to hom it's either fight or do nothing.

It’s not a matter of violence.   It’s not just about seeking non-lethal solutions.  It’s a matter of severe mental health issues including depression, anxiety, and PTSD crippling him, mentally paralyzing him.  Those do not add up to cowardice.  He doesn’t choose to do nothing.  His mind is freezing up, broken by severe and sustained trauma.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I think it is worth bringing up that Kaladins perception of Moash, and willingness to deal with him, might change after he learns of how Teft died. That might, so to speak, be the last push over the edge for Kaladins ability to forgive Moash or see him as someone deserving of help and/or mercy. Killing Teft might very well put Moash in the Amaram-section of Kaladins mind. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The problem with Kaladin in these situations isn't that he not violent enough, it's that he refuses to do anything that isn't violent. He could just capture people, but to hom it's either fight or do nothing.

It is incredibly difficult to capture someone like Moash, who has access to an Honorblade and Surgebinding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kaladin does as far as I know not possess enough knowledge to do that and make it work. 

[Frustration he/him]

15 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It is incredibly difficult to capture someone like Moash, who has access to an Honorblade and Surgebinding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kaladin does as far as I know not possess enough knowledge to do that and make it work. 

Use Syl as a full body handcuff, bind his hands in fists so he can't summon a blade, and then lock them in a set position. Then you take his Stormlight, and you have a captured Moash.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Use Syl as a full body handcuff, bind his hands in fists so he can't summon a blade, and then lock them in a set position. Then you take his Stormlight, and you have a captured Moash.

And...when exactly has that ever happened in any of the books?  I wasn't aware the Spren could just manifest themselves as anything you want even if you're not touching them.  Silly me, every time i've seen them manifest it was into something the Radiant was holding, but I must have missed all those other chapters where they randomly manifested elsewhere.  

[Frustration he/him]

27 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And...when exactly has that ever happened in any of the books?  I wasn't aware the Spren could just manifest themselves as anything you want even if you're not touching them.  Silly me, every time i've seen them manifest it was into something the Radiant was holding, but I must have missed all those other chapters where they randomly manifested elsewhere.  

Could you be any more sarcastic?

Why would you not be able to hold it? It's not like Moash is standing right in front of him with his hands in surrender or anything. Just reach out and do it.

[Elder]

29 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

And...when exactly has that ever happened in any of the books?  I wasn't aware the Spren could just manifest themselves as anything you want even if you're not touching them.  Silly me, every time i've seen them manifest it was into something the Radiant was holding, but I must have missed all those other chapters where they randomly manifested elsewhere.  

Spoiler

In “The Sunlit Man”, Auxiliary is able to manifest as all kinds of stuff, including a bracket attaching a gun to a vehicle of some kind.  Not really sure what’s up with auxiliary though.

Capturing Moash is a viable solution, if you have the time and means of doing it.  Holding him long term would be a headache and a half.

Capture in the heat of battle is a dangerous prospect.  Police train in their hand to hand tactics, with all holds and maneuvers meant to lead to cuffing.  I doubt Windrunners train that way, though skybreakers might.  Kaladin’s been pointed out as a spearman, and while he can handle himself grappling, it isn’t his focus.  It isn’t something you try in the middle of a battle.  
 

Regardless, whether or not capture is a viable option is secondary if not tertiary to the mental afflictions that are paralyzing Kaladin in RoW.

It’s a moot point now.  Moash is blind beyond the power of Stormlight to heal.  Taking him prisoner may be much easier now.  Unless he bonds a Spren to give him precognitive powers.

[Treamayne]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:05 PM, Romuless said:

My view ... lead.

On 1/14/2023 at 9:26 PM, Romuless said:

I ...anymore.

Please avoid double posting. In case you are not familiar with the tools used by this version of a Forum, this may help:

Spoiler

At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) Options and Edit links. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you click that for each post
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Next to Edit you will also find an "options" dropbox, you can use this to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting
• At the top of a post you will find "Report Post"
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.

Hope that helps.

On 1/14/2023 at 10:45 PM, Romuless said:

Sorry I don't mean to offend

If you have not done so, may I suggest reading Altered Perceptions? It was a for-charity release in support of Mental Illness and allowed contributing authors to submit both essays on how Mental Illness affects their lives (and lives of family, friends, etc.) along with content either original to the Anthology or showing drafts/versions of work where known characters made difference choices from the published material.

Sanderson's Website:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson’s contribution to the anthology is six chapters from the original 2002 version of The Way of Kings, where Kaladin made a choice opposite the one he makes in the completely rewritten published novel.

So, while Way of Kings Prime has had a release after this anthology was released - it's still worth the time to read because the essays are the best parts of Altered Perceptions. Excerpts from the Forward, Introduction and ToC:

Spoiler

Quote

Foreword - Ally Condie

When I was younger, in a misguided attempt to determine whether I had a fight or flight response to danger, my father hid in my bedroom closet and jumped out to startle me. (He was a judge and had seen too many bad things happen to people who didn’t have a quick response to danger.) To his frustration, my gut instinct was neither to run nor to stand my ground. Instead, I collapsed on the floor.

“That’s not going to do you any good when something dangerous comes along, Ally,” he said, and even though his method of teaching me this lesson was dubious—and, frankly, stupid—I agreed with the principle.

<snip>

But when I came to the greatest danger of my life so far, that of a loved one struggling with a mental illness, I learned that neither of these were viable options for that person. There is no flight from yourself. There is no fighting yourself, not without disastrous and painful consequences. You cannot run, and you cannot hide, and it is a supremely painful place to exist.

Where, then, can you escape?

As writers and readers, we believe in the power of story. We believe in the line that William Nicholson wrote for the movie Shadowlands: “We read to know that we are not alone.” Stories heal. Stories entertain. Stories keep us sane. Through them, we unlearn everything we thought we knew and find it coming back different and true.

Of course, sometimes a story is just a story. It cannot take away the pain. You cannot escape into it. I have spent many nights sitting by the side of someone’s bed, wishing that my stories could do something for this person that I love so much, and at the same time I knew with certainty that in that moment my stories did not help.

And still, of all the tenets of my personal belief, my belief in the power of story is one of the deepest held. If I had the power to tell exactly the right story to the person I love, it might sound something like this: I knew you before. I knew you after. I want to know you now. I have a story for you. Here it is. Do you see? It is exactly what you need it to be.

<snip>

Quote

Introduction - Dan Wells

When my brother Rob and I were little, I used to play a game I called “See How Easy It Is to Bug Him?” This is the kind of thing that older brothers do. The game was simpler than you probably think: just go into a public place and attract attention. That’s literally all it took.

<snip>

And then a few decades later he was diagnosed with a severe anxiety disorder, and suddenly it wasn’t so funny anymore.

(Well, still kind of funny—he is my little brother, after all—just less funny.)

<snip>

 Hindsight also makes it easy to spot the quirks that would eventually develop into full-blown depression, and if I squint my eyes a bit I can see in his younger perfectionism the ominous shadow of what is now a crippling case of OCD: not the “group my M&Ms by color” kind of OCD, but the real OCD, the “my mind is not my own” OCD that makes him try to break his own hands or throw himself down the stairs. None of what he did as a child was a quantifiable, diagnosable disorder; none of it was the kind of behavior a wiser eye might have looked at and said “that child has dark things in his future.”

<snip>

This anthology, in a weird kind of way, is about that difference in trajectory. Just like people, some stories grow up one way and some stories grow up another way, and in slightly different circumstances one story could go in any number of different directions. When we set out to put together an anthology to help raise awareness of mental illness, we decided to focus not on the illness itself—most of these contributions are not stories about mental illness—but on the subtle differences that can send a story, or a life, down a completely unexpected path.

<snip>

In another way, this anthology is about itself: about the need to raise awareness of mental illness. Every story in here is accompanied by a brief note or essay from the author, explaining their own personal connection to mental illness. Whether it’s themselves, or a friend or a loved one, every author here has been touched by the needs and problems and realities of mental health.

<snip>

The world is not a nice place to people with mental illnesses, partly because the illnesses themselves are so hard to deal with, but also—and sometimes “mostly”—because we as a society, as a human race, go out of our way to make them harder. Every time you casually misuse a word like “OCD” or “neurotic” or “aspergers,” you make it harder for the people who hear you to take those words seriously as actual medical conditions. Every time you tell a depressed coworker to stop moping, every time you tell a friend with ADD to stop screwing around, every time you tell a person with anorexia or bipolar disorder or post-traumatic stress syndrome to stop being such a drama queen, you’re playing the grown-up version of “See How Easy It Is to Bug Him?” Yes, it’s easy, but you’re better than that. We all are, and we have a responsibility to help each other however we can, for mental health just as much as physical health.

<snip>

But we can be better.

Spoiler

Table of Contents

Shannon Hale--------------- Ravenous

Seanan McGuire------------Cybernetic Space Princess from Mars

Mary Robinette Kowa------The Nature of Masks

Jessica Day George--------Playing Cards with the Corley

Howard Tayler----------------“No. I’m Fine.”

Sandra Tayler-----------------Married to Depression

Bree Despain-----------------The Author and the A-Word

Lauren Oliver-----------------Sections from the first draft of Pandemonium

Jacqueline Novak------------Notes from a Depressed Humor Writer as She Works on Her Humorous Book about Depression

Larry Correia------------------Deleted scene from Swords of Exodus

Shawn Speakman-----------Unused chapter from The Dark Thorn

Annette Lyon------------------Excerpt from Song for Anna

SJ Kincaid---------------------Original chapter one from Vortex

J Scott Savage---------------Early chapters from Farworld

Robison Wells----------------Epilogue to Feedback: Supernova

Dan Wells---------------------Free-write prologue to I Am Not a Serial Killer

Luisa Perkins-----------------Seeing Red        

Nancy Campbell Allen------Bonus chapter from Beauty and the Clockwork Beast: Marie

Sara Zarr-----------------------Family Portrait at the Kensington Manor Hotel

Aprilynne Pike----------------Three stories from the world of Wings

Kiersten White----------------Womb

Brodi Ashton------------------The first three chapters of The Echo Lives in Blackfoot

Josi Kilpack--------------------Book 8, which became Tres Leches Cupcake

Brandon Mull------------------Bonus excerpts from Beyonders book 2: Oracular Interviews

Jennifer Moore---------------Deleted scene from Becoming Lady Lockwood

Sarah M. Eden---------------From Longing for Home and Hope Springs: Farewells

Erin Bowman-----------------Prewriting from the Taken Trilogy

John C. Wright----------------Lunar Sacrament of Conciliation

Claudia Gray------------------Deleted chapter from A Thousand Pieces of You: Station 47

Brandon Sanderson---------Deleted scenes from the 2002 version of The Way of Kings

 

Excerpt from Sanderson's Essay on Kaladin in Altered Perceptions:

Spoiler

I owe a lot of my understanding of this—and indeed, my understanding of life itself—to some very good friends in college who struggled with mental illness. They opened my eyes to the issues people deal with by giving me as close to a firsthand experience as you can get without suffering from these issues yourself.

The chapters I’m including in this book are particularly poignant along these lines. For years after writing The Way of Kings in 2002, I knew that something major was wrong with Kaladin’s character. (Then named Merin.) He was a generic fantasy protagonist in a vibrant, well-built world full of amazing wonders. He felt bland, like a streak of grey on a gorgeous canvas.

I would spend nearly ten years reworking Kaladin, drilling down to who he was and who he needed to be. At the same time, I met my wife and fell in love. I began to see how people with depression are treated in the media and books, and I started to wonder. Where are our fantasy heroes with depression? This disease affects a huge percentage of the population. Does every character with depression need to be relegated to being in a story only about their illness? Couldn’t we have a character who was heroic, dynamic, interesting—and, oh, by the way, he has depression. Not something for the story to be about, just something that—like exists in so many of our lives—is another aspect of who he is, that reflects his worldview.

The person Kaladin became was shaped by two major changes, his psychology being one of them. 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Treamayne
AP data

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

On 1/14/2023 at 3:25 PM, Romuless said:

As with many my favorite character, as is intended for us guys at least I think by Brandon, was Kalladin. Love the arc of his story, it's a great thing in many ways redemption and recovering from being broken.  However there are many good people who are dead, and likely many more good people are going to die, because Kalladin is "too noble" to kill certain people.  I hate to even term it that way.  It's not a real thing.  I get it, Moash was his best friend in the bridges.  The king, Teft, Teft's Spren, and Jezrien none of these people had to die, Kalladin could have protected them, but instead he continuously enables a mass murdering psychopath to go on killing more innocent people.  Kalladin has protected a lot of people, done a lot of good things, but this block he has about doing what needs to be done is not realistic to me.  He stood around watching someone murder a child's father while the father held the child in their arms, powerless because "but but no one deserves to die"... Sorry Moash does deserve to die. Moash didn't get screwed by anyone.  He had a petty grudge and plotted to assassinate the king, then eventually murdered the king horrifically with his son in his arms, and all Kalladin can do is watch? 

Moash and Kalladin are both cowards, and it infuriates me that Teft is dead because Kalladin can't do what he needs to to protect the people who deserve it.

 

"I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right.... Unless I really liked that person at some point then I'll let them kill you, whoops sorry!" 

As others have said, Kaladin isn't necessarily a coward. He has mental health issues. Saying he's a coward for freezing up is just kind of... for lack of a better word, stupid. 

Now, I have read a lot of what y'all have said and I see both points here. But saying that Test is dead because Kaladin can't do what he needs to protect the people who deserve it? I get what you're saying, but who in actuality could do that? It was a point in RoW where Kaladin DIDN'T KNOW that Moash was going to be there. He didn't know that Teft would be in actual danger of dying. Kaladin, also, was in the middle of a fight with the persuer and had to focus. That point of your argument is bad. Jezrien dying also wasn't Kaladin's fault. Teft and Pheondora wasn't Kaladin's fault. It was Moash's. Yes, Kaladin could've killed Moash. But Kaladin has mental health issues and you have to understand that. Yes, it's a major point of RoW that Kaladin is removed from duty EXACTLY FOR THAT. RoW is about Kaladin coming to terms with the fact that he can't save everyone. Can you accept that he can't save everyone?

(Sorry if that paragraph was sloppily written)

For other things you say, I get what you're saying and why you would think that. But I, respectfully, disagree almost entirely. 

(The above paragraph and sentence being a response to the first post)

On 1/14/2023 at 8:45 PM, Romuless said:

Sorry I don't mean to offend, I do feel like that word fits Kaladin in relation to Moash, maybe not overall, he's struggled through a lot of hard situations and shown he is resilient.  However so have many others in the series, through things that are worse than losing a brother, like losing your husband and then thinking you lost your daughter then actually losing your son like Navani did.  Or Jasnah. Either of them  has suffered in horrifying ways, but they push on and grow stronger, face their enemies and do what needs to be done.  I'm not big on trying weigh people's pain against others in general, I think everyone suffers in ways other people can't understand from the rich to the poor, from those with loving families to those with none at all, but even Dalinar has pushed through more than Kaladin.  He found out he was one of the world's greatest mass murderers, who burned his wife alive, and is a total rock of leadership now.  Maybe Kaladin just has more growing to do, but when I think of his arc, the tragedies he has suffered, and those of others.. like I said I don't mean to offend I just think of  everyone else a lot in books, not just the main characters but the consequences for those around them.

Yes, others have suffered worse things than losing a brother. But that's not all Kaladin endured. He, through out the books, struggles with losing people. The whole bridge four stuff and past enslavement for example. He's lost more people that Teft. And another reason why Kaladin doesn't react like the others is because he hasn't really had time to process it (well, by RoW time he has sort of, but he's been losing men in battles and such, so any argument could be made about that point). It's been hit after hit for him. 

Again, you do say that it's in relation to Moash. And, there, you do have a good point. At the same time, however, Kaladin still thinks of Moash deep down as one of his men. as a friend. No matter how much he tries, he'll see his old friend there. I think a plot point in book five might be that Kaladin kills Moash and finally gets over all this.

 

Sorry for the big post. Kaladin is one of my faves, as most people say, and I have a lot of thoughts about all this. Feel free to disagree with everything I say.