Tglassy Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, StanLemon said: He still presumably had Investiture to do that charging and overcharging in the first place. It's like Compounding, getting more than you gave, but you still need a little to start things off Not quite. He's literally pulling Stormlight through his bond with the Stormfather. He doesn't need spheres. Same with Navani at the end of RoW. She just creates Towerlight by pulling it through her bond. She doesn't need spheres.
StanLemon Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 Just now, Tglassy said: Not quite. He's literally pulling Stormlight through his bond with the Stormfather. He doesn't need spheres. Same with Navani at the end of RoW. She just creates Towerlight by pulling it through her bond. She doesn't need spheres. Could you point me to a page where Dalinar does that without first having Stormlight? I don't recall anything specific enough for that. As for Navani well.. Spoiler After she Bonds with The Sibling, Towerlight is perpetually abundant for Radiants while in Urithiru. As was shown in the released chapters for Stormlight 5. And Navani was in Urithiru when she Bonded
Frustration Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Not without using their Surges and they can't use their Surges without having some Stormlight to start off with. So no they don't. Unless you want to make the completely baseless claim that Bondsmiths can use their powers without Investiture Creating Stormlight/Lifelight/Towerlight is done via their bond, not as an application of surges. Their spren can make the light naturally and when bonded they allow their Bondsmith to as well. (RoW 795.) So no, they do not need light to start with. 23 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Doesn't matter. If you want to make ludicrous conditions, so can I You still have to PREPARE to have those. Gather the Spheres knowing you might need them in the future, make sure you've had them infused. So prep. Just like a Mistborn needs to prepare their metals. A Feruchemist needs to prepare their metalminds. An Awakener gathering Breaths. And so on and so on. Saying that any Investiture that a magic user would be expected to have at any given time is invalid is disingenuous. So without prep we throw two people with nothing but the clothes on their back into a pit and the Bondsmith wins because they can generate light. With prep the Bondsmith adds themselves to the Oathpact and can be reborn until they win. 16 minutes ago, Tglassy said: And are we forgetting something? I don't think Bondsmiths HAVE plate. They can't even have Blades. The only Bondsmith with a Blade that we've seen so far is Ishar, and he's a Herald with an Honorblade giving him his powers. Dalinar may not GET plate when he gets to the fourth ideal. The Stormfather said he "Would be a Radiant without Shards." Shards. Plural. Blade iss ONE shard. Plate is another. That's where you get plural from. It means having more than one (I know this because my English teacher said so.) So when making this comparison, it would be valid to say that the Bondsmith at the very least does not have a Blade. In that case...I'm thinking there really isn't a way he can win. Bondsmiths can have plate Spoiler Questioner Did every Order have Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Every Order was capable of it. Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015) Edited January 2, 2023 by Frustration
Tglassy Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Frustration said: So without prep we throw two people with nothing but rhe clothes on their back into a pit and the Bondsmith wins because they can generate light. Which, again, is the only way you can justify the Bondsmith winning. By putting them in a situation that overwhelmingly favors the Bondsmith. Thus proving their inferiority to Fullborn. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: With prep the Bondsmith adds themselves to the Oathpact and can be reborn until they win. No, cause once they die, they go to Braise and get tortured. Not sure how this is a 'win'. Pretty sure the Fullborn would have won the fight, regardless. Just look at the Heralds. None of them are sane. That's a loss on all accounts. 1 minute ago, Frustration said: Bondsmiths can have plate Hide contents Questioner Did every Order have Shardplate? Brandon Sanderson Every Order was capable of it. Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015) But they don't have Blades. Or at the very least, the Stormfather's Bondsmith won't. So that should be striken from their assets. 2
Frustration Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tglassy said: No, cause once they die, they go to Braise and get tortured. Not sure how this is a 'win'. Pretty sure the Fullborn would have won the fight, regardless. Just look at the Heralds. None of them are sane. That's a loss on all accounts. Here's the thing, they get to choose when they leave. So they can die, and then say, alright, time to go, and their free once again. And ther Heralds all outlived TLR, who was thousands of years younger. Quote But they don't have Blades. Or at the very least, the Stormfather's Bondsmith won't. So that should be striken from their assets. It was never included. Though I will note, purely for the purpose of pointing out something cool that it is theoretically possible Spoiler dresdentc24 Can other Bondsmith spren become Blades for their Bondsmith? And how would it affect the Tower if the Sibling became a Blade? Brandon Sanderson I'm gonna say it's outside the realm of plausibility for the Sibling right now. Is it possible for the other two, yes. It's possible but implausible. Highly implausible for the Sibling. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Edited January 2, 2023 by Frustration
Tglassy Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 Just now, Frustration said: Here's the thing, they get to choose when they leave. So they can die, and then say, alright, time to go, and their free once again. And ther Heralds all outlived TLR, who was thousands of years younger. Oh. Right. Yes. Let's just turn our souls into the keys that hold back a god for no other reason than because it would make ourselves immortal for an imagined fight against some random dude in the cosmere cause a bunch of people who like reading our stories can see who would win, letting that god run rampant as much as he wants until the Bondsmith figures out a way to kill the other guy. Cause THAT makes sense. Honestly, this is another thread I'm out of, again. The arguments just aren't made in good faith. This is just as bad as "Just ask the nightwatcher.". 2
Frustration Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Tglassy said: Oh. Right. Yes. Let's just turn our souls into the keys that hold back a god for no other reason than because it would make ourselves immortal for an imagined fight against some random dude in the cosmere cause a bunch of people who like reading our stories can see who would win, letting that god run rampant as much as he wants until the Bondsmith figures out a way to kill the other guy. Cause THAT makes sense. Honestly, this is another thread I'm out of, again. The arguments just aren't made in good faith. This is just as bad as "Just ask the nightwatcher.". I can never win with you can I? You say something is impossible, I say it's not and then give sources for it, and you add some other condition that wasn't present at the start, along with extra helpings of snark and then act like I'm the one being unreasonable. What more do you want from me? Edit: however for the sake of the argument, they can just make a new oathpact that doesn't bind them to Braize, because their powers are what made it RoW 284 Edited January 2, 2023 by Frustration
Tglassy Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, Frustration said: I can never win with you can I? You say something is impossible, I say it's not and then give sources for it, and you add some other condition that wasn't present at the start, along with extra helpings of snark and then act like I'm the one being unreasonable. What more do you want from me? Honest, good faith discussion. Pulling out things like "He'll just join the Oathpact" or "He can just ask the Nightwatcher" aren't answers. They're ridiculous. We all are fans of these stories, we all want to have a discussion on who we believe is stronger, but when you bring up ridiculous counterpoints, or puruposefully tip the scales against who you have decided is your opponent, it degrades the discussion into "well my dinosaur eats your force field dog", which just isn't helpful, because you KNOW it doesn't work like that. You KNOW these things are not actual options. You can't just ask the Nightwatcher, because you don't get to choose what she gives you. She could just as easily make the Stormfather's bondsmith only able to use Lifelight as his curse, thus nulifying all his abilities because he's bonded to the Spren that grants Stormlight and so he doesn't have access to Lifelight. It's a piece of random chance that is not helpful. And I know that you didn't bring up the Nightwatcher here, but you have in the past, and "He'll just make himself part of the Oathpact and keep trying until he wins" is literally the same kind of ridiculous. Or when you said NaerGaul could take over the Koloss when he's at the bottom of the ocean and doesn't work for anyone anyway cause he's a mindless unmade. Or when we talk about Soulcasters and you bring up them Soulcasting a block around someone's head or hopping to the CR to soulcast an entire army, that's just disengenuous, because if that were possible, Jasnah would have done it. These kinds of answers just degrade the discussion and are not in good faith. And mainly, there are so many amazing things a Bondsmith may be able to do that could win this fight, that bringing up ridiculous, off the wall things is almost a disservice. Bondsmiths manipulate Spiritual Connection, right? I don't think that a Fullborn's powers are based on Connection, but on their own Spiritweb, but they could maybe disrupt the Connection between the Fullborn and his Metalminds. No metalminds, and all they have is Allomancy. That's a big power cut. Or do what Ishar did and make the ground connected to the Fullborn so the metalminds believe the ground is part of the Fullborn, thus draining the metalminds extremely quickly as it tries to to fill the ground itself with investiture. That might backfire, though, if the Fullborn tries to store Weight, lol. All of a sudden, the entire planet, or at least all of the area around them, is suddenly weightless. But the thing is, Bondsmiths don't really have any offensive ability. Like, at all. They don't fight. They lead. They don't get blades, their powers aren't made to harm, though there are likely harmful applications. They just aren't offensive powerhouses. The Fullborn is. As far as we've seen, the Bondsmith has to touch a person to manipulate their Connection (except the one time with Kaladin in the storm, but he may have counted since they were all in the Space Betwen Spaces), and if that's the case, then the Fullborn wins. The Fullborn is too fast. Too strong. And while the Bondsmith may have Plate, they don't have Blades, and their powers don't deal damage. Even increasing the earth's connection to the Fullborn to make them so heavy they crush themselves doesn't work cause the Fullborn would just store the extra weight in an Ironmind. The reason I never count out a Mistborn in against a Radiant is that they have so many tricks and abilities, they almost always have something that can help. Well, a Fullborn is that in multitudes. The only being I think that could beat Rashek is, actually, Susebron, or however you spell his name. Cuase with over 50,000 breaths, he can awaking things with his mind, that he's not touching, and instinctively. Which means he can literally create 5,000 Nightbloods. And he doesn't need to. He only needs to make one. Nightblood killed a god. Susebron may even be powerful enough to awaken metalminds. Or at least the clothing the Fullborn is wearing. Not sure if it would be enough, but it would be a good fight. But even then, a Fullborn has access to Chromium, and can leach power. Whether they have enough to leach someone like Susebron, or if that would even work with a Bondsmith's apparent infinite Stormlight, I don't know, but it's something. But a Bondsmith? Even one who is Unchained? He'd have to be REALLY creative, because he'd have the span of an eyeblink before his head is taken from his shoulders and he just doesn't have the offensive or defensive capability to deal with that. Dalinar hasn't fought hardly anyone since becoming a Bondsmitth. Not really. And Navani would lose outright, fabriels or no. And I get snarky when the person I'm having a discussion with is obviously not discussing in good faith. If you're going to be ridiculouus, Imma be ridiculous. I appologize if I go to far, sometimes. 3
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 29 minutes ago, Tglassy said: Susebron may even be powerful enough to awaken metalminds. Or at least the clothing the Fullborn is wearing. Not sure if it would be enough, but it would be a good fight. Can I just say how much I love the idea of a godking thinking commands to a piece of jewelry to "destroy that which holds you" from across the battlefield. Honestly I think the Godking with the right command is the scariest thing in the cosmere by far and away. Heck even 9th heightening could just speak it and have the same effect. You can create an entire set of armor that is more invested than shardplate as well as a blade that is more invested than shardblades. You can indefinitely CC a person for the simple crime of choosing to show up to the fight in clothing, and you can do it all at range at the speed of thought or speech. If all else fails you can just find a hole to hide in for a few lifetimes and come back out after your enemies have forgotten you even exist. All of which are more plausible options at the moment than making a new oathpact... the whole unchained thing sort of hinges on you saying screw the oaths and the being bound by honor thing. What is a radiant without a binding oath anyways? Becoming a cognitive shadow and playing darksouls fighting the same boss 600 times is similar to Kelsier offering people drinks to listen to him tell stories about how he outlived TLR cause 1337 skills.
Frustration Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: Honest, good faith discussion. Pulling out things like "He'll just join the Oathpact" or "He can just ask the Nightwatcher" aren't answers. Why not? They are not only possible in their circumstances they are incredibly powerful as well. 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: We all are fans of these stories, we all want to have a discussion on who we believe is stronger, but when you bring up ridiculous counterpoints, or puruposefully tip the scales against who you have decided is your opponent, it degrades the discussion into "well my dinosaur eats your force field dog", which just isn't helpful, because you KNOW it doesn't work like that. You KNOW these things are not actual options. On the contrary they do work like that, if I wanted to purposely tip scales you'd see a lot more speculation along the lines of "Reforge Honor and have him give you a direct feed of Stormlight" but I do not. 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: You can't just ask the Nightwatcher, because you don't get to choose what she gives you. You do, we saw that when Dalinar went to visit her, if it's within her power she will give it. She's not a conniving monster trying to screw everyone over. 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: She could just as easily make the Stormfather's bondsmith only able to use Lifelight as his curse, thus nulifying all his abilities because he's bonded to the Spren that grants Stormlight and so he doesn't have access to Lifelight. It's a piece of random chance that is not helpful. Why would you risk your Bondsmith? This isn't even the same discussion, we should pull this back to the Bondsmith vs. Fullborn one. 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: Or when we talk about Soulcasters and you bring up them Soulcasting a block around someone's head or hopping to the CR to soulcast an entire army, that's just disengenuous, because if that were possible, Jasnah would have done it. These kinds of answers just degrade the discussion and are not in good faith. You can do it, and Jasnah has. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson A WARNING FROM BRANDON: This scene gives major spoilers for Words of Radiance. Please don’t continue unless you’ve finished that book. This is a very short sequence of Jasnah’s backstory I’ve been reading at signings. It’s not a polished draft. I often read very rough (and potentially continuity-error filled) sequences at signings as a special treat to people who attend. This scene is even rougher than most—first draft, and shouldn’t be taken as canon quite yet, as I haven’t firmed up or fixed all the terminology or Shadesmar interactions. Brandon Sanderson Jasnah Kholin opened her eyes and gasped, fingers rigid, clawing at the obsidian ground. A knife in her chest! She could feel it grinding on her bones as it slipped between two ribs, glancing off her sternum. She spasmed, rolling into a ball, quivering. “Jasnah.” No. She could not lay prone. She fought to her knees, but then found herself raking her fingers across the ground, trembling, heaving breaths in and out. Moving—even breathing—was perversely difficult, not because of pain or incapacity, but because of the overwhelming sense of tension. It made her shake, made her made her want to run, fight, do anything she could to not die. She shouted, stumbling to her feet, and spun about, hand on her chest. Wet blood. Her blood. A dress cut with a single knife hole. “Jasnah.” A figure all in black. A landscape of obsidian ground reflecting a bizarre sky and a sun that did not change locations. She darted her head from side to side, taking in everything but registering very little of it. Storms. She could sense that knife again, sliding into her flesh. She felt that same helplessness, that same panic—emotions which had accompanied the knife’s fall. She remembered the darkness consuming her, her hearing fading, the end. She closed her eyes and shivered, trying to banish the memories. Yet the effort of trying to do so only seemed to solidify them. She knew that she would remember dying for as long as it took the darkness to claim her again. “You did well,” Ivory said. “Well, Jasnah.” “The knife,” she whispered, opening her eyes, angry at how her voice trembled, “the knife was unexpected.” She breathed in and out, trying to calm herself. That puffed out the last of her Stormlight, which she had drawn in at the last possible moment, then used like a lash to pull herself into this place. It had kept her alive, healed her. Ivory said that while a person held enough Stormlight, only a crushing blow to the head itself would kill. She’d believed him, but storms that hadn’t made it any easier to lay there before the knife. Who would have expected them to stab her? Shouldn’t they have assumed that a blow to the head would be enough to— Wait. Shallan! “We have to go back,” Jasnah said, spinning. “Ivory, where is the junction?” “It is not.” She was able to locate the ship with ease. In Shadesmar, land and sea were reversed, so she stood on solid ground—but in the Physical Realm, Shallan and the sailors would still be in their ship. They manifest here as lights, similar to candle flames, and Jasnah thought of them as the representation of the person’s soul—despite Ivory telling her that was an extreme simplification. They spotted the air around her, standing up on deck. That solitary flame would be Shallan herself. Many smaller lights darted beneath the ground—faintly visible through the obsidian. Fish and other sea life. Nerves still taut, Jasnah searched around for the junction: a faint warping of the air that marked the place of her passage into Shadesmar. She could use it return to the ship, to… One of the lights up above winked out. Jasnah froze. “They’re being executed. Ivory! The junction.” “A junction is not, Jasnah,” Ivory repeated. He stood with hands clasped behind his back, wearing a sharp—yet somehow alien—suit, all black. Here in Shadesmar, it was easier to distinguish the mother-of-pearl sheen to his skin, like the colors made by oil on water. “Not?” Jasnah said, trying to parse his meaning. She’d missed his explanation the first time. Despite their years together, his language constructions still baffled her on occasion. “But there’s always a junction…” “Only when a piece of you is there,” Ivory said. “Today, that is not. You are here, Jasnah. I am…sorry.” “You brought me all the way into Shadesmar,” she asked. “Now?” He bowed his head. For years she’d been trying to get him to bring her into his world. Though she could peek into Shadesmar on her own—and even slip one foot in, so to speak—entering fully required Ivory’s help. How had it happened? The academic wanted to record her experiences and tease out the process, so that perhaps she could replicate it. She’d used Stormlight, hadn’t she? An outpouring of it, thrust into Shadesmar. A lash which had pulling her, like gravitation from a distant place, unseen… Memories of what happened mixed with the terror of those last minutes. She shoved both emotions and memories aside. How could she help the people on the ship? Jasnah stepped up to the light, hovering before her, lifting a hand to cup one. Shallan, she assumed, though she could not be certain. Ivory said that there wasn’t always a direct correlation between objects their manifestation in Shadesmar. She couldn’t touch the soul before her, not completely. Its natural power repelled her hand, as if she were trying to push two pieces of magnetized stone against one another. A sudden screech broke Shadesmar’s silence. Jasnah jumped, spinning. It sounded a trumping beast, only overlaid by the sounds of glass breaking. The terrible noise drove a shiver up her spine. It sounded like it had come from someplace nearby. Ivory gasped. He leaped forward, grabbing Jasnah by the arm. “We must go.” “What is that?” Jasnah asked. “Grinder,” Ivory said. “You call them painspren.” “Painspren are harmless.” “On your side, harmless. Here, harmmore. Very harmmore. Come.” He yanked on her arm. “Wait.” The ship’s crew would die because of her. Storms! She had not thought that the Ghostbloods would be so bold. But what to do? She felt like a child here, newborn. Years of study had told her so little. Could she do anything to those souls above her? She couldn’t even distinguish which were the assassins and which were the crew. The screech sounded again, coming closer. Jasnah looked up, growing tense. This place was so alien, with ridges and mountains of pure black obsidian, a landscape that was perpetually dim. Small beads of glass rolled about her feet—representations of inanimate objects in the physical realm. Perhaps… She fished among them, and these she could identify immediately by touch. Three plates from the galley, one bead each. A trunk holding clothing. Several of her books. Her hand hesitated. Oh storms, this was a disaster. Why hadn’t she prepared better? Her contingency plan in case of an assassination attempt had been to play dead, using faint amounts of stormlight from gems sewn into her hem to stay alive. But she’d foolishly expected assassins to appear in the night, strike her down, then flee. She’d not prepared for a mutiny, an assassination led by a member of the crew. They would murder everyone on board. “Jasnah!” Ivory said, sounding more desperate. “We must not be in this place! Emotions from the ship draw them!” She dropped the spheres representing her books and ran her fingers through the other spheres, seeking… there. Ropes—the bonds tying the sailors as they were executed. She found a group of them and seized the spheres. She drew in the last of her Stormlight, a few gemstones’ worth. So little. The landscape reacted immediately. Beads on the ground nearby shivered and rolled toward her, seeking the stormlight. The calls of the painspren intensified. It was even closer now. Ivory breathed in sharply, and high above, several long ribbons of smoke descended out of the clouds and began to circle about her. Stormlight was precious here. It was power, currency, even—perhaps—life. Without it, she’d be defenseless. “Can I use this Light to return?” she asked him. “Here?” He shook his head. “No. We must find a stable junction. Honor’s Perpendicularity, perhaps, though it is very distant. But Jasnah, the grinders will soon be!” Jasnah gripped the beads in her hand. “You,” she command, “will change.” “I am a rope,” one of them said. “I am—” “You will change.” The ropes shivered, transforming—one by one—into smoke in the physical realm. Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014) 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: These kinds of answers just degrade the discussion and are not in good faith. Maybe instead of being belligerent you could ask where I source the information from. 12 hours ago, Tglassy said: But the thing is, Bondsmiths don't really have any offensive ability. Like, at all. They don't fight. They lead. They don't get blades, their powers aren't made to harm, though there are likely harmful applications. They just aren't offensive powerhouses. The Fullborn is. If you remove their Connection to the Physical realm they die. However you couldn't do that with metalminds as those are an Identity thing rather than Connection. 12 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: . All of which are more plausible options at the moment than making a new oathpact... the whole unchained thing sort of hinges on you saying screw the oaths and the being bound by honor thing. What is a radiant without a binding oath anyways? What oaths would that Violate? And if you make a new one then you don't even have to worry about releasing the Fused. Edited January 2, 2023 by Frustration 1
cometaryorbit Posted January 2, 2023 Posted January 2, 2023 I think Soulcasting from the Cognitive is not an extreme what-if/edge case but genuinely a feature of Elsecaller powers. I don't think it's something they'd use terribly often since getting back to the Physical is hard, but I think it's genuinely a power they're supposed to have and not just a "well theoretically if they knew everything this would be possible". Bondsmith powers aren't terribly combat oriented, no, but we don't know enough about their limitations imo. Ishar's "the ground is now part of you" trick suggests they might be able to shut down others' powers. However IMO best bet on Roshar against a Fullborn isn't a Bondsmith, it's a Suppressor Fabrial like the one the Fused use early in RoW. It's an area effect, so the Fullborn can't dodge it with super speed - if they want to use super speed against you they'll get into the area and lose their power.
alder24 Posted January 3, 2023 Posted January 3, 2023 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: it's a Suppressor Fabrial like the one the Fused use early in RoW. It's an area effect, so the Fullborn can't dodge it with super speed - if they want to use super speed against you they'll get into the area and lose their power. Would it worked on Allomancy and Feruchemy? However Fullborn could destroy it from a distance with duralumin steel push. 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: However IMO best bet on Roshar against a Fullborn isn't a Bondsmith I do agree, but I think Elsecaller would have better chances - if they manage to transport into CR, then they could soulcast Fullborn metalminds away, and now they face only Mistborn. But that's if they would be faster than steel compounder - in most cases, no. 14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I think Soulcasting from the Cognitive is not an extreme what-if/edge case but genuinely a feature of Elsecaller powers. I don't think it's something they'd use terribly often since getting back to the Physical is hard, but I think it's genuinely a power they're supposed to have and not just a "well theoretically if they knew everything this would be possible". Also, Fused are present in CR, with surges and Voidlight. Moving into CR is dangerous, as now Radiant doesn't have blade nor plate, have limited amount of light with them, and are exposed to Fused attacks far more than in PR.
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