Fullborn vs bondsmith unchained (with shardplate)

[bmcclure7]

Fullborn vs bondsmith unchained (with shardplate)

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I know it all comes down to time and place.  I also know bondsmiths theoretical power is out of this world.  

What's not theoretical is how fast a fullborn can cross a distance and how hard they can crush whatever they touch. 

Fullborn doesn't have to even touch the ground.  

Fullborn will win initiation with compounded zinc and steel and I don't forsee the fight lasting longer than 1 round in either way.  

How do you stop a bullet hitting you that you didn't know was going to shoot?  I would say the answer is plate... but now that isn't a 0.5 ounce bullet but instead a multi-ton hulk who can literally pop your head inside of your magic armor and then further grind the rest of you into the dust... all before you could finish taking your breath in.  

The first thing a person has to say when making these threads is how far away the combatants are and if they are both expecting the fight.  Anything within a football field or two is probably going to end with a dead radiant before they can react.  Anything outside of that probably let's any order execute theoretical 1 shot uncounterable move X that will never be seen in a book for the same reason we don't have a book of Rashek PoV 1 shotting entire villages.  But we have had a fraction of fullborn power shown to us from the bands... just the filled to the brim feruchemical metalminds part... not counting the compounding.   Take the bands and multiply what they can do by 10 fold. 

I know it cant all be done in an instant as feruchemy has high diminishing returns past a certain point but we have WoBs saying how explosive and dangerous compounding can be which leads me to believe that the bands are just a taste of what a true fullborn could do.  

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

Spoiler

Questioner

What happens if you burn duralumin while Compounding?

Brandon Sanderson

Duralumin while Compounding. So, what duralumin does is it burns out of all of your metal in one burst. So it doesn't necessarily gain you power, it makes it all happen at the same time. The same thing would happen.

Questioner

Could you turn into a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you could totally turn into a baby. That is within the power of using that, doing <health wrong>, yeah you could totally... You'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

But it wouldn't really do much?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it would have explosive... it does things really fast. That's what it does. Yes you could achieve very powerful sudden effects through that. It'd be scary. Controlling it can be dangerous, regardless of which metal you use.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

I am not saying the bondsmith is worse off than the fullborn.  I think the differences in the investiture of each world points to the bondsmith being more powerful.  I just don't think anyone stands a chance vs a fullborn if the fullborn is allowed to touch you for even a second.  Plate is irrelevant vs a fullborn.  The blade is irrelevant vs a fullborn.  This one is 100% the shoe on the other foot from most mistborn vs radiant topics where radiants get to laugh at futile attempts and 1 shot the mistborn.  This is the opposite.  If you don't root and drain the fullborn you will be instapopped and drained. 

And if you start within 2 football fields of the fullborn I don't think you will even finish opening your perpendicularity or taking a breath in.  If the fight is starting from a lot further the bondsmith will have a much better chance.  

[therunner he/him]

I'd agree with @Tamriel Wolfsbaine , Fullborn would win most of the time, because they are faster and are sufficiently strong to break through Plate.

If neither one is using any powers till the second fight starts, then Bondsmith would have some chance I think? If they could open perpendicularity before Fullborn strikes the Stormlight coming through would heal and rejuvenate them, and so maybe give them enough time to do some Connection shenanigans (i.e. connect Fullborn to ground to drain them of attributes, as tapping them they would try to apply themselves to ground as well).

With a few second head-start I would say Bondsmith would win, because unchained Connection powers are broken in meta-physical way.

[alder24]

I have to say Fullborn. With steel and zink compounding + A-bendalloy he can move faster than Bondsmith can react, faster than F-steel alone allows him to, and he doesn't have to care about Shardblade. He can easily avoid being touch by Bondsmith, who would need this to manipulate his Connection, and with A-pewter + pewter/iron/steel/gold compounding Fullborn can crush Shardplate to pieces while healing himself from any damage. And with A-Chromium + A-Duralumin Fullbron would drain him out of Stromlight and kill him instantly.

This is not a competition, this is execution.

[Frustration]

If we don't allow prep time the Bondsmith wins because without incredibly boosted speed the Fullborn can't kill them.

If we allow prep time the Bondsmith adds themselves to the Oathpact, allowing them to try again until the Fullborn dies.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If we don't allow prep time the Bondsmith wins because without incredibly boosted speed the Fullborn can't kill them.

If we allow prep time the Bondsmith adds themselves to the Oathpact, allowing them to try again until the Fullborn dies.

This assumption is thrown wildly in the bondsmiths favor.   Imagine you are a gunslinger who shows up to a fight at high noon and you laugh at your opponent as they carry only a sword but then you pull out your pistol and you left home with it totally unloaded?  

The Fullborn has access to compounding every single metal.  You want us to assume they dont have full metalminds and ingested allomantic metal and feruchemical metal when everything in the books shows that allomancers and feruchemists carried these things and had ingested metals at the ready with very few exceptions (I only remember Marasi being mad she wasnt prepared)... many have run out of metals but 1 out of how many showed up with no metal?  

That said I guess if the Bondsmith gets infinite healing, infinite investiture, infinite foreknowledge of their enemy past the first death and infinite lives, while the Fullborn only gets 1 life then Roshar can check off another victory.  

 

[alder24]

45 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If we don't allow prep time the Bondsmith wins because without incredibly boosted speed the Fullborn can't kill them.

If we allow prep time the Bondsmith adds themselves to the Oathpact, allowing them to try again until the Fullborn dies.

It sounds ridiculous. No prep time means no metalminds and no stormlight and gems. With Prep time, metalminds and stormlights in gems. I can as easily claimed, which would be equally ridiculous, that with preperation time, Fullborn would find not only all 10 Honorblades, but also a Downshard, store ability to use those powers in nicrosil metalmind and then compound it gaining whatever he would gain from it. It is possible for him to do so, as for Bondsmith to adds themselves to the Oathpact for an eternal torture (great deal), but that is just ridiculous claim of mine, as it has nothing to do with reality.

How about we focus on regular fight, as in every other topic - Fullborn has large supply of metals, and multiple full metalminds, after all they are so easy for him to made, and Bondsmith has a sack of gemstones full of Stromlight, and Plate on him already. Doesn't it sound more reasonable?

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It sounds ridiculous. No prep time means no metalminds and no stormlight and gems. With Prep time, metalminds and stormlights in gems. I can as easily claimed, which would be equally ridiculous, that with preperation time, Fullborn would find not only all 10 Honorblades, but also a Downshard, store ability to use those powers in nicrosil metalmind and then compound it gaining whatever he would gain from it. It is possible for him to do so, as for Bondsmith to adds themselves to the Oathpact for an eternal torture (great deal), but that is just ridiculous claim of mine, as it has nothing to do with reality.

And it would also make them no longer a Fullborn.

24 minutes ago, alder24 said:

How about we focus on regular fight, as in every other topic - Fullborn has large supply of metals, and multiple full metalminds, after all they are so easy for him to made, and Bondsmith has a sack of gemstones full of Stromlight, and Plate on him already. Doesn't it sound more reasonable?

If the Fullborn can use their powers to prepare for the fight so can the Bondsmith.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

35 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And it would also make them no longer a Fullborn.

If the Fullborn can use their powers to prepare for the fight so can the Bondsmith.

I guess I don't know what is still in the theoretical / RAFO realm for the Bondsmith.   

We have ample in world examples of compounders/ feruchemist / mistborn alike. To say a fullborn would have ingested metals and full metalminds is not a stretch in the least.  

The bondsmith walking around in invisible plate and potentially access to a blade with some gems straped to them (but why when you can open a perpendicularity anyways?) Is all viable.  

I think the stretch is adding one's self to the oathpact as a standard preparation... 

 

[alder24]

57 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And it would also make them no longer a Fullborn.

And your idea would make them no longer a Bondsmith, he would be a Herald after it.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And it would also make them no longer a Fullborn.

If the Fullborn can use their powers to prepare for the fight so can the Bondsmith.

No prep time still assumes a Fullborn has full metalminds on their person, assuming differently is utterly ridiculous. 

[Tglassy]

Pretty sure having this conversation with Frustration is going to be futile. The Radiant will be an all powerful god, the Fullborn will be incompetent and stupid.  And when all else fails, he'll just say "Ask the Nightwatcher".  

The Fullborn wins evertime.  The Flash would always win.  Superman would always win. The only reason they don't in the comics is because they hold themselves back.  It doesn't matter what the Bondsmith can do.  He can't move at blurring speed and have nigh infinite strength at the same time.  It doesn't matter what Connections they have or what preperations they make.  They lose, because they can't react fast enough.  

And if the Fullborn has knowledge of Hemalurgy, a single Alluminum Spike ends the game.  The Fullborn would have it inserted before the Bondsmith could think.  The Bondsmith can't affect the Connections of the Fullborn, because the Fullborn can store those Connections, or compound them to an infinite degree.

And theoretical abilities ascribed to Bondsmiths, or any Radiant, is a pointless argument.  Unless we've seen it happen in book, they can't do it.  Dalinar vs Rashek would die without giving any kind of fuss.  He doesn't know what a Bondsmith could do.  Ishar knows more, but even he is experimenting to see what's possible.  But we've SEEN what Rashek can do, in book.  Ishar took on a whole group of windrunners with ease, but Rashek would tear him limb from limb and shove an Alluminum spike in him so fast he wouldn't even feel the pain.

I get that Radiants are powerful, but pretending like everything on Scadrial, from their technology to their military to their magic systems to their culture, is second class to Roshar is just being willfully obtuse.  

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

And your idea would make them no longer a Bondsmith, he would be a Herald after it.

Ishar is a Bondsmith.

20 hours ago, StanLemon said:

No prep time still assumes a Fullborn has full metalminds on their person, assuming differently is utterly ridiculous. 

How would they have full metalminds if they didn't have prep time? Saying they just have it on them naturally means you can include their guards, technology, weapons or other additional tools as well.

4 hours ago, Tglassy said:

It doesn't matter what the Bondsmith can do.  He can't move at blurring speed and have nigh infinite strength at the same time.  It doesn't matter what Connections they have or what preperations they make.  They lose, because they can't react fast enough. 

Depending on their spren they do have access to time dilation, the Stormfather has the space between spaces where he can compress entire conversations in the time between seconds, and it's implied that other Bondsmiths can also dilate time, though probably not to such an extreme degree.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Frustration

[Tglassy]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Depending on their spren they do have access to time dilation, the Stormfather has the space between spaces where he can compress entire conversations in the time between seconds, and it's implied that other Bondsmiths can also dilate time, though probably not to such an extreme degree.

The space between spaces is a place in your mind only.  There's no phsyical aspect to it.  They pull your mind into a place where the Stormfather or the Bondsmith can muddle with perception of time, but it isn't actually time dialation.  It's just speeding up mental processing and perception.  But only in that mental space.  There is nothin the books to suggest a Bondsmith or the Stormfather can cause the world to slow down so the Bondsmith can percieve it faster.  So no, the Bondsmith still loses, even if he spends an hour in the "Space between spaces" while the Fullborn rushes to him and rips his head off, because being in that Space between Spaces, he wouldn't be cognizant of what is happening on the outside.  And even if he WERE cognizant, like the Stormfather saying "Uh, dude, he's about to rip your head off", having a high mental speed would do nothing but let him watch, in excruciating detail, as the Fullborn came and ripped his head off without being able to move or do anything about it.  

Bondsmith loses.  The Flash wins.  The end.  

[cometaryorbit]

8 hours ago, Tglassy said:

 Unless we've seen it happen in book, they can't do it.  Dalinar vs Rashek would die without giving any kind of fuss.  He doesn't know what a Bondsmith could do.  Ishar knows more, but even he is experimenting to see what's possible. But we've SEEN what Rashek can do, in book.  Ishar took on a whole group of windrunners with ease, but Rashek would tear him limb from limb and shove an Alluminum spike in him so fast he wouldn't even feel the pain.

Well, what we saw Rashek do on-page is a tiny subset of what he could do. His on-page performance is impressive, but not overwhelming. He never demonstrates the truly extreme abilities he theoretically should have, such as the apparently supersonic speed Marasi uses the Bands for in BoM or building-wrecking physical strength with super-compounded pewter. He also never uses the metals that aren't general Allomantic knowledge in the Final Empire.

What does he actually demonstrate?

- He's essentially invulnerable until his bracers are gone... but then, he only survives mortal-scale things like spears (and, by rumor, being burned and being decapitated-- but these could be exaggerated). We don't see him survive large explosions (which could plausibly separate his arms / bracers from his body) or similar extreme events.

- He uses f-steel (presumably) to move faster than "a full pewter flare", but not invisibly fast - Vin can track his super speed movement. Probably Bleeder is faster in SoS, though the different observers (Vin's perspective vs Wax's) and circumstances might make this less absolute than it seems. This speed is actually quite possibly less than a Mistborn using iron/steel flight (twice as fast as a galloping horse, Vin says early in her training in TFE - so probably freeway speeds, 60-80mph maybe).

- He can push on metal inside the body, and even very slightly (it quivers) on stained glass (which probably has a noticeable metal content) - which is very powerful compared to a normal Allomancer, but weaker than what Wax does with the Bands.

- He overpowers / manhandles Marsh as an Inquisitor.

- He can pierce copperclouds with both Seeking and Soothing.

- He uses Soothing at incredible power, affecting presumably at least a couple hundred thousand people. He also controlled a lot of koloss - probably all of them at times , though some seem to have been 'delegated' to Inquisitors at times. Ruin created more koloss in HoA, so it's not clear how many koloss there were in TLR's time, but probably at least high tens of thousands (Jastes' army in WoA is 20k and I don't think that was a majority of all koloss) and likely over 100k. [Elend controls tens of thousands of koloss in HoA, but koloss control is all-or-nothing, low effort once initiated, and so might not scale like Soothing humans. And Elend used duralumin to take control, though he didn't strictly *need* to.]

- Lie detection... apparently a combination of tin-enhanced senses and centuries of experience.

- Enhanced memory (f-copper).

Have I missed anything?

---

On-page Dalinar wouldn't beat on-page Rashek, but on-page Jasnah or Kaladin as of end of RoW actually might, depending on how much healing Rashek has in his bracers at the start of the fight vs how much a Shardblade wound takes to heal (and how quickly he can fix a Shardblade-dead arm: if it's not instantaneous, two Shardblade swipes, one to each arm, would be fatal since he's now disconnected from his metalminds). Kaladin beats a teleporting Fused without most of his powers early in RoW; if we're limiting Rashek to his observed on-page speed rather than his possible (Marasi in BoM) supersonic speed, I don't think that's enough speed to make Kaladin auto-lose, if we give him his full power back plus the living Plate he has by the end of RoW.

--

I really wonder what would happen if he were exposed to a suppressor fabrial from RoW. It's area-effect, so speed alone won't prevent it working (it can't be dodged). Would it work on Allomancy/Feruchemy at all? If so, would it shut down external powers but not internal ones, or all powers? Would he count as high Ideal and thus be unable to resist the effect, or would the generally low-Investiture nature of Scadrial mean even a near-savant lerasium-strength Mistborn and Feruchemist counts as lower Ideal?

Edited January 1, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[StanLemon]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

How would they have full metalminds if they didn't have prep time? Saying they just have it on them naturally means you can include their guards, technology, weapons or other additional tools as well.

Then your Bondsmith has no Stormlight, or time to even say more than a single oath. That's how ridiculous your assertion is.

Prep time assumes that they are preparing for a specific enemy or situation. A Fullborn would have full metalminds on their person as a matter of standard procedure. Just like every other Feruchemist.

Edited January 2, 2023 by StanLemon

[cometaryorbit]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

A Fullborn would have full metalminds on there person as a matter of standard procedure. Just like every other Feruchemist.

Well, charged metalminds, certainly. (Very few metalminds we see in the series are actually *full* - perhaps only the Bands when first found in BoM.) I'm sure a Fullborn would always have some charged metalminds on them - at least of the more commonly used, or more useful in emergency, metals.

OTOH ... I think people overestimate the power of speed, personally, especially in the Cosmere context. Kaladin with his powers suppressed could beat teleporting Lezian. Allomancers can react to and stop arrows at 150+ mph and coins which are probably much faster.

But also more generally, speed isn't everything ... cheetahs aren't invincible, and don't auto-win fights against slower animals (in fact, cheetahs generally back down from pretty much every other decent-sized predator, iirc), nor are they immune to being killed by humans. Big cats have much faster reflexes than humans do, but humans have killed them with blades etc.

If it's an arena fight with a starting bell, sure, speed will win it for the Fullborn. But otherwise, speed isn't necessarily decisive.

[StanLemon]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Well, charged metalminds, certainly. (Very few metalminds we see in the series are actually *full* - perhaps only the Bands when first found in BoM.) I'm sure a Fullborn would always have some charged metalminds on them - at least of the more commonly used, or more useful in emergency, metals.

OTOH ... I think people overestimate the power of speed, personally, especially in the Cosmere context. Kaladin with his powers suppressed could beat teleporting Lezian. Allomancers can react to and stop arrows at 150+ mph and coins which are probably much faster.

But also more generally, speed isn't everything ... cheetahs aren't invincible, and don't auto-win fights against slower animals (in fact, cheetahs generally back down from pretty much every other decent-sized predator, iirc), nor are they immune to being killed by humans. Big cats have much faster reflexes than humans do, but humans have killed them with blades etc.

If it's an arena fight with a starting bell, sure, speed will win it for the Fullborn. But otherwise, speed isn't necessarily decisive.

There are few circumstances that a Fullborn couldn't easily have full metalminds. You have to be intentionally weighing the fight to the Bondsmith's favor to assume a Fullborn doesn't have full metalminds. Which basically admits to the Bondsmith being at a disadvantage against a Fullborn. 

Speed might not be everything but it is enough. What's seen in SoS and BoM is enough to show that they are more than capable of moving too fast for any Radiant to react to. Your example with Lezian doesn't work for two reasons. First he wasn't instantaneously teleporting, he was turning into a trackable ribbon, and two, his every other movement was still at normal speeds. All movement is sped up for a Feruchemist. Additionally a Fullborn can hit quite litterally like a bullet train, no Plate is going to stand up to more than one hit that hard. 

Frankly, the only way a Bondsmith beats a Fullborn is if either the Fullborn has been handicapped or maybe via an ambush. 

[cometaryorbit]

54 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

There are few circumstances that a Fullborn couldn't easily have full metalminds. You have to be intentionally weighing the fight to the Bondsmith's favor to assume a Fullborn doesn't have full metalminds. Which basically admits to the Bondsmith being at a disadvantage against a Fullborn. 

Speed might not be everything but it is enough. What's seen in SoS and BoM is enough to show that they are more than capable of moving too fast for any Radiant to react to. Your example with Lezian doesn't work for two reasons. First he wasn't instantaneously teleporting, he was turning into a trackable ribbon, and two, his every other movement was still at normal speeds. All movement is sped up for a Feruchemist. Additionally a Fullborn can hit quite litterally like a bullet train, no Plate is going to stand up to more than one hit that hard. 

Frankly, the only way a Bondsmith beats a Fullborn is if either the Fullborn has been handicapped or maybe via an ambush. 

Oh they could easily be full for a Compounder, I was just talking about the comparison to normal Feruchemists and that "full" metalminds isn't the norm. Sorry.

Not all Lezian's movements were accelerated, but the ribbon teleport was still very fast. It's trackable, but then Vin can track TLR's super speed in their final fight- she says he's much faster than even a full pewter flare, but definitely doesn't lose track of him.

I agree speed gives the Fullborn a significant advantage, but not an auto-win. Sure Plate won't survive more than one hit, but one hit might be enough. Jasnah soulcasts people to death, and most metalminds seem to be less Invested than people's souls since they can be Pushed - soulcast his metalminds away and I think Jasnah, even with her Plate broken and dismissed, would have little trouble defeating a Mistborn. Division might destroy metalminds easily, though we have seen so little of that Surge we can't know. A Bondsmith's "now your Stormlight heals the ground instead of you" trick could probably nullify Feruchemy.

(Information is an issue here... if the Radiant doesn't know enough to target metalminds, the Fullborn shouldn't necessarily know the Radiant's powers either.)

Edited January 2, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Tglassy said:

The space between spaces is a place in your mind only.  There's no phsyical aspect to it.  They pull your mind into a place where the Stormfather or the Bondsmith can muddle with perception of time, but it isn't actually time dialation.  It's just speeding up mental processing and perception.  But only in that mental space.  There is nothin the books to suggest a Bondsmith or the Stormfather can cause the world to slow down so the Bondsmith can percieve it faster.  So no, the Bondsmith still loses, even if he spends an hour in the "Space between spaces" while the Fullborn rushes to him and rips his head off, because being in that Space between Spaces, he wouldn't be cognizant of what is happening on the outside.  And even if he WERE cognizant, like the Stormfather saying "Uh, dude, he's about to rip your head off", having a high mental speed would do nothing but let him watch, in excruciating detail, as the Fullborn came and ripped his head off without being able to move or do anything about it.  

Bondsmith loses.  The Flash wins.  The end.  

That's not true, when the Stormfather summons the space between speaces for Dalinar's wedding the people inside can move around, tall and interact. So the Bondsmith can move, summon a perpendicularity or stormlight, form Connections etc. In fact given the compression factor they would actually be faster than the Fullborn.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Then your Bondsmith has no Stormlight, or time to even say more than a single oath. That's how ridiculous your assertion is.

Stormlight doesn't require prep, any more than metal vials do, in order to have Shardplate they would have to be fourth ideal.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Frustration

[StanLemon]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Stormlight doesn't require prep, any more than metal vials do, in order to have Shardplate they would have to be fourth ideal.

Having any Investiture requires prep. Also they could have dead Plate...with no Stormlight to power it thus trapping them in an immovable armor. They don't need to be 4th Ideal. Your position that having filled metalminds is any more prep than any other magic user having Investiture which would be expected of them to have in most situations is ridiculous as not just me but multiple people have called out now. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Having any Investiture requires prep.

So the Bondsmith wins the non-prep fight as they can make stormlight.

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

 Also they could have dead Plate...with no Stormlight to power it thus trapping them in an immovable armor.

That is not what the OP ment and you know it.

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Your position that having filled metalminds is any more prep than any other magic user having Investiture which would be expected of them to have in most situations is ridiculous as not just me but multiple people have called out now. 

In order to have a full metalmind you have to use your powers. Getting stormlight or metals does not.

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So the Bondsmith wins the non-prep fight as they can make stormlight.

Not without using their Surges and they can't use their Surges without having some Stormlight to start off with. So no they don't. Unless you want to make the completely baseless claim that Bondsmiths can use their powers without Investiture 

Quote

That is not what the OP ment and you know it.

Doesn't matter. If you want to make ludicrous conditions, so can I

Quote

In order to have a full metalmind you have to use your powers. Getting stormlight or metals does not.

You still have to PREPARE to have those. Gather the Spheres knowing you might need them in the future, make sure you've had them infused. So prep. Just like a Mistborn needs to prepare their metals. A Feruchemist needs to prepare their metalminds. An Awakener gathering Breaths. And so on and so on. Saying that any Investiture that a magic user would be expected to have at any given time is invalid is disingenuous. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by StanLemon

[Tglassy]

I think StanLemon is right.  The only way to make this fight winnable for the Bondsmith is to tilt everything in the Bondsmith's favor, which just shows how much of a disadvantage they have against the Fullborn.  Make sure the Fullborn doesn't have his metalminds, etc.

 

And are we forgetting something?  I don't think Bondsmiths HAVE plate.  They can't even have Blades.  The only Bondsmith with a Blade that we've seen so far is Ishar, and he's a Herald with an Honorblade giving him his powers.  Dalinar may not GET plate when he gets to the fourth ideal.  The Stormfather said he "Would be a Radiant without Shards."  Shards.  Plural.  Blade iss ONE shard.  Plate is another.  That's where you get plural from.  It means having more than one (I know this because my English teacher said so.)

So when making this comparison, it would be valid to say that the Bondsmith at the very least does not have a Blade.  In that case...I'm thinking there really isn't a way he can win.  

Though, 

6 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Not without using their Surges and they can't use their Surges without having some Stormlight to start off with. So no they don't. Unless you want to make the completely baseless claim that Bondsmiths can use their powers without Investiture 

While I hate to support the other side in this, Bondsmiths can, in fact, create their Light themselves.  Dalinar charges, or overcharges, radiants with Stormlight without having to open a Perpendicularity.  So technically, the Unchained Bondsmith has access to Stormlight at all times without spheres.  Though, notably, only Ishar's Blade and the Stormfather's Bondsmith will be able to draw Stormlight.  The Sibling's Bondsmith draws Towerlight, and the Nightwatcher's would draw Lifelight.  Not sure if that would make a differenc, but it's there.  

Edited January 2, 2023 by Tglassy

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

While I hate to support the other side in this, Bondsmiths can, in fact, create their Light themselves.  Dalinar charges, or overcharges, radiants with Stormlight without having to open a Perpendicularity.  So technically, the Unchained Bondsmith has access to Stormlight at all times without spheres.  Though, notably, only Ishar's Blade and the Stormfather's Bondsmith will be able to draw Stormlight.  The Sibling's Bondsmith draws Towerlight, and the Nightwatcher's would draw Lifelight.  Not sure if that would make a differenc, but it's there.  

He still presumably had Investiture to do that charging and overcharging in the first place. It's like Compounding, getting more than you gave, but you still need a little to start things off