Mistborn V.S. 3rd Ideal Lightweaver

[StanLemon]

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

She was able to shove a man, and turn not only him but the people he touched into crystal, and that was before Dalinar opened a perpendicularity. She didn't stop and concentrate she simply shoved him.

This is after Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

This is after Dalinar opened the Perpendicularity

We just went over that

[StanLemon]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

We just went over that

My bad, usually my browser tells me if someone replied but I must have missed it

[Frustration]

Just now, StanLemon said:

My bad, usually my browser tells me if someone replied but I must have missed it

No problem that happens sometimes.

[NameIess]

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The Physical realm isn't bound that way but the Spiritual and Cognitive realms are. And while yes more mass would have an effect, I doubt it would be proportional.

What evidence do you have for Perception working that way? Are there any cases where Perception alone made something harder?

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Burden of proof is on you, you can't ask me to prove a negative.

This isn't a court of law. I am making a claim that Jasnah is above average, and I have given evidence that I believe to be sufficient to back up that claim. (She's Fourth ideal, considered a perfect Elsecaller by her spren, has shown better Soulcasting feats than any other Soulcaster we've seen). You are making the claim that my claim is wrong. Please provide evidence.

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Sample size we have or not it still isn't large enough to make any kind of conclusion.

So you make the opposite conclusion instead?

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They might have a few minutes worth at most

Really? So they couldn't, say, swallow a few dozen beads of it? Elend and Vin never had a problem with running out of it.

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It isn't

You've shown no evidence that it isn't.

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Mistborn are from a general population, in a society that doesn't focus on combat.

Mistborn train to be assassins and to fight people.

23 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Mistborn are less combat focused then Lightweavers are.

No they're not. Lightweavers train to be spies first, fighters second.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

What evidence do you have for Perception working that way? Are there any cases where Perception alone made something harder?

Yes, healing is harder when fighting against perception.

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

This isn't a court of law. I am making a claim that Jasnah is above average, and I have given evidence that I believe to be sufficient to back up that claim. (She's Fourth ideal, considered a perfect Elsecaller by her spren, has shown better Soulcasting feats than any other Soulcaster we've seen). You are making the claim that my claim is wrong. Please provide evidence.

We haven't seen what the past Elsecallers were like so there is literally no baseline for any sort of claim that she is above average.

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

So you make the opposite conclusion instead?

I think it is possible that they have the ability to do more than we've seen.

3 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Really? So they couldn't, say, swallow a few dozen beads of it? Elend and Vin never had a problem with running out of it.

Elend and Vin only used it against seers. And if the Mistborn can carry more than three vials the Lightweaver has dozens of pouches containing large cut gemstones.

5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

You've shown no evidence that it isn't.

The only evidence that you have against it is that Shallan is an idiot, and that one year is not enough to learn soulcasting, which we already knew, because Jasnah said she struggled with it when she was younger.

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Mistborn train to be assassins and to fight people.

Lightweavers train to fight sixty foot tall stone monsters, and entire armies.

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

No they're not. Lightweavers train to be spies first, fighters second.

Mistborn in modern times will be people first, allomancers second, because they don't have a need for assassins anymore.

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Mistborn in modern times will be people first, allomancers second, because they don't have a need for assassins anymore.

Lightweavers in modern times will be illusionist first, soulcasters second, because there is sufficient workforce, production and tech, so they don't have the need for soulcasting anymore...

 

Great argumentation, 10/10.

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes, healing is harder when fighting against perception.

It does not take more stormlight, it merely becomes impossible.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

We haven't seen what the past Elsecallers were like so there is literally no baseline for any sort of claim that she is above average.

She is above every Soulcaster we've seen, and is of the Fourth ideal. If she wasn't above the Third ideal average, Jasnah would have to be below average in skill.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I think it is possible that they have the ability to do more than we've seen.

I think it is possible that they do not on average have the ability to soulcast as we see Jasnah soulcast. You're not changing my mind without evidence.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Elend and Vin only used it against seers. And if the Mistborn can carry more than three vials the Lightweaver has dozens of pouches containing large cut gemstones.

Elend and Vin used it against every Inquisitor that they fought. And also, in counterpoint to your theory that electrum burns quickly because it does the same thing as Atium but only for you, Atium shows the future of vastly more, compared to electrum that only has to show your own future. The Lightweaver can have as much stormlight as they want. A Mistborn can leech it all away just fine.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The only evidence that you have against it is that Shallan is an idiot, and that one year is not enough to learn soulcasting, which we already knew, because Jasnah said she struggled with it when she was younger.

That's not what I was referring to. Soulcasting as a weapon is countered by electrum.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Lightweavers train to fight sixty foot tall stone monsters, and entire armies.

No they don't. They train to fight regular people, as we saw in RoW.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Mistborn in modern times will be people first, allomancers second, because they don't have a need for assassins anymore.

Mistborn in modern times will either be soldiers specifically chosen to be granted Lerasium or medallions, or extremely rare and in-demand for their unmatchable power. They will be fighters, especially with a cold war on the horizon.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Lightweavers in modern times will be illusionist first, soulcasters second, because there is sufficient workforce, production and tech, so they don't have the need for soulcasting anymore...

 

Great argumentation, 10/10.

You know other than locks, doors, armor, enemies, dozens of other ways that soulcaasting will be helpful when the literal end of the world is just two weeks away.

Just now, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

It does not take more stormlight, it merely becomes impossible.

No, with enough investiture you can overcome it.

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

She is above every Soulcaster we've seen, and is of the Fourth ideal. If she wasn't above the Third ideal average, Jasnah would have to be below average in skill.

The soulcaster we have seen are all either fabrials, or barely trained novices.

3 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I think it is possible that they do not on average have the ability to soulcast as we see Jasnah soulcast. You're not changing my mind without evidence.

I think they have the ability to soulcast just as easily as Jasnah does, with slightly different strengths. You're not changing my mind without evidence.

5 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Elend and Vin used it against every Inquisitor that they fought.

So no more than one at a time.

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And also, in counterpoint to your theory that electrum burns quickly because it does the same thing as Atium but only for you, Atium shows the future of vastly more, compared to electrum that only has to show your own future.

Electrum shows multiple futures for you though, so same amount of fortune is needed.

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

The Lightweaver can have as much stormlight as they want. A Mistborn can leech it all away just fine.

And get instantly encased in stone the moment they try.

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

That's not what I was referring to. Soulcasting as a weapon is countered by electrum.

If they train enough to react to electrum, and can escape in time, and don't run out.

8 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

No they don't. They train to fight regular people, as we saw in RoW.

Yes, regular people, not the magic ones who can fly, and burn them to ash, the regular people that they can kill with a flick of their wrist.

10 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Mistborn in modern times will either be soldiers specifically chosen to be granted Lerasium or medallions, or extremely rare and in-demand for their unmatchable power. They will be fighters, especially with a cold war on the horizon.

And if they don't want to fight, are born with disabilities, decide they want to be scientists, or engineers instead of soldiers etc?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

You know other than locks, doors, armor, enemies, dozens of other ways that soulcaasting will be helpful when the literal end of the world is just two weeks away.

The statement you made is hypocritical. "Modern mistborn are weak, as they are not assassins" but "let's ignore modern lightweavers cause they can't do fighting, and talk only about ancient lightweavers, about which we know nothing". I can came up with a dozens of reasons why modern mistborn would be trained in fighting the same way as ancient one.

No one knows what ancient Lightweavers could do, but we know what modern Lightweavers can do, that Lightweavers are worse in Soulcasting that Elsecallers, that Jasnah is 4th Ideal and far better in Soulcasting than anyone else. 

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And if they don't want to fight, are born with disabilities, decide they want to be scientists, or engineers instead of soldiers etc?

And if Lightweavers don't want to fight, are born with disabilities, decide they want to be scientists, or engineers instead of soldiers etc?

Edited December 19, 2022 by alder24

[Frustration]

Just now, alder24 said:

The statement you made is hypocritical. "Modern mistborn are weak, as they are not assassins" but "let's ignore modern lightweavers cause they can't do fighting, and talk only about ancient lightweavers, about which we know nothing". I can came up with a dozens of reasons why modern mistborn would be trained in fighting the same way as ancient one.

That was my point, @UnfortunatelyNamed has been arguing using modern lightweavers, I was saying that modern mistborn are even worse off.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No one knows what ancient Lightweavers could do, but we know what modern Lightweavers can do, that Lightweavers are worse in Soulcasting that Elsecallers, that Jasnah is 4th Ideal and far better in Soulcasting than anyone else. 

Jasnah wasn't that good on one year of training, that's all the lightweavers have had.

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That was my point, @UnfortunatelyNamed has been arguing using modern lightweavers, I was saying that modern mistborn are even worse off.

So why not using ancient Mistborn who all had Atium? Insta win

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Jasnah wasn't that good on one year of training, that's all the lightweavers have had.

Yes, Soulcasting is hard to master. Very hard. It takes a lot of time and training. Soulcasting air is even harded. That's my point, modern lightweavers are very bad at Soulcasting. They are the only data we have.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, Soulcasting is hard to master. Very hard. It takes a lot of time and training. Soulcasting air is even harded. That's my point, modern lightweavers are very bad at Soulcasting. They are the only data we have.

That's like saying TLR was bad at hemalurgy. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean anyone who doesn't instantly get it is bad at it. And we know that Jasnah struggled especially early on with soulcasting.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

So why not using ancient Mistborn who all had Atium? Insta win

Why not use future Lightweavers with Lasers? Insta win

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[NameIess]

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

No, with enough investiture you can overcome it.

Source?

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The soulcaster we have seen are all either fabrials, or barely trained novices.

And she is vastly more skilled than them. Even the most skilled soulcaster we've seen, Kaza, couldn't come close to replicating her feats.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I think they have the ability to soulcast just as easily as Jasnah does, with slightly different strengths. You're not changing my mind without evidence.

You see why I don't think this argument is relevant?

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

So no more than one at a time.

What?

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Electrum shows multiple futures for you though, so same amount of fortune is needed.

No, it shows one future. That future just changes constantly. Atium doesn't start burning faster when someone else burns Atium.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And get instantly encased in stone the moment they try.

If a Radiant can't summon their Shardblade while being leeched, what makes you think they'd be able to use surges?

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If they train enough to react to electrum, and can escape in time, and don't run out.

Training isn't all that necessary, just learn to dodge if all your shadows start getting frozen. You can escape in time, given the radius we've seen, and electrum is never mentioned as burning fast. even if it does burn fast, carrying enough on you to last for, say, 30 minutes won't be hard.

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes, regular people, not the magic ones who can fly, and burn them to ash, the regular people that they can kill with a flick of their wrist.

Shardbearers, but yeah. They spar with each other and train under Radiant. We've never seen nor heard of them doing anything else.

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

And if they don't want to fight, are born with disabilities, decide they want to be scientists, or engineers instead of soldiers etc?

On average, more Lightweavers will not be soldiers because they attract people who are not combat-minded. Mistborn, by virtue of having their powers, will be influenced towards being utilized for combat purposes.

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's like saying TLR was bad at hemalurgy. Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean anyone who doesn't instantly get it is bad at it. And we know that Jasnah struggled especially early on with soulcasting.

I have no idea how logically you could connected it with Rashek was bad with hemalurgy...

And that's the point. Soulcasting is hard to do. That's why modern Lightweavers struggle with it. We have nothing to suggest that ancient Lightweavers didn't have problems with it as well. Things that you are saying will be very hard or too hard to do for an average 3rd Ideal Lightweaver. 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Why not use future Lightweavers with Lasers? Insta win

Why not use future Mistborn with full feruchemist medalion and leeching cubes that can FTL to Lightweaver before fight even begins? Your arguments are just pointless.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Source?

Harmony healed Spook, Self-healing radiants being able to heal older wounds, Divine breath not only healing wounds, but adding to the soul so that they can make use of healed limbs/tongues.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And she is vastly more skilled than them. Even the most skilled soulcaster we've seen, Kaza, couldn't come close to replicating her feats.

It's not surprising that Jasnah, who has had 7 years to train is more skilled than the people with one year. And Kaza was using a fabrial, so she's more limited.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

What?

They fought one inquisitor at a time, in 2 vs 1's. Those fights were over quickly.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

No, it shows one future. That future just changes constantly. Atium doesn't start burning faster when someone else burns Atium.

Atium also doesn't burn faster when their are more people around.

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

If a Radiant can't summon their Shardblade while being leeched, what makes you think they'd be able to use surges?

How would they get close enough to touch them without being in soulcasting range?

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Training isn't all that necessary, just learn to dodge if all your shadows start getting frozen.

Yes it is

Spoiler

Questioner

How does electrum work?

Brandon Sanderson

Electrum can see future shadows only as far in the future as is done with atium in the books. They use it to counter atium in that they see their own future shadow fighting, and if they see their shadow get hit by an attack, they know to avoid that attack, and they change their own future. This compounds the future shadows they see, which makes it practically as effective at countering atium as atium itself.

While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

 

9 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

On average, more Lightweavers will not be soldiers because they attract people who are not combat-minded. Mistborn, by virtue of having their powers, will be influenced towards being utilized for combat purposes.

On average Lightweavers are part of a military group just by their nature. Mistborn by virtue of being genetic will have their individuals from all backgrounds and interests.

Just now, alder24 said:

And that's the point. Soulcasting is hard to do. That's why modern Lightweavers struggle with it. We have nothing to suggest that ancient Lightweavers didn't have problems with it as well. Things that you are saying will be very hard or too hard to do for an average 3rd Ideal Lightweaver.

It was hard for Jasnah, look at where she is. It might be hard, but they can learn. It being hard doesn't mean they don't get access to that power.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

Why not use future Mistborn with full feruchemist medalion and leeching cubes that can FTL to Lightweaver before fight even begins?

That's not in their power set now is it?

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Your arguments are just pointless.

I'd rather you refrain from personal attacks.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Harmony healed Spook, Self-healing radiants being able to heal older wounds, Divine breath not only healing wounds, but adding to the soul so that they can make use of healed limbs/tongues.

Harmony could have turned Spook into a Kandra if he wanted. Radiants can only heal older wounds if they don't perceive the wounds as part of themselves. Divine breath is a possible exception, but it is also far beyond any amount of Stormlight. Beyond that, your only evidence for Stormlight cost being perception based, at least so far as I can tell, is that it would explain how stormlight consumption could be based on volume, and your evidence for stormlight consumption being based on volume is... what, exactly?

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

It's not surprising that Jasnah, who has had 7 years to train is more skilled than the people with one year. And Kaza was using a fabrial, so she's more limited.

Yeah, but Jasnah's far beyond them. And Kaza was a savant.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They fought one inquisitor at a time, in 2 vs 1's. Those fights were over quickly.

Vin vs every Inquisitor? And also them not noting electrum as burning quickly?

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Atium also doesn't burn faster when their are more people around.

Atium still has to "check" the future of everything around you, even if it won't move. Electrum only has to do it for you.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

How would they get close enough to touch them without being in soulcasting range?

So every time the Mistborn gets in close they'd soulcast? they'll run out of Stormlight very quickly, if they use it that often.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes it is

  Reveal hidden contents

With something like hitting a tennis ball it'd be difficult, but with an aoe attack like the Radiant would have, every single shadow, or almost all of them, will freeze in place until the Mistborn realizes that they need to dodge. No lengthy training required.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

On average Lightweavers are part of a military group just by their nature. Mistborn by virtue of being genetic will have their individuals from all backgrounds and interests.

Lightweavers are selected against being from military backgrounds, then thrown into a sort-of military group, where they are trained to be spies first and fighters second. Mistborn are not selected for at all genetically or personality-wise, but are selected to be fighters because of their powers.

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'd rather you refrain from personal attacks.

That wasn't a personal attack.

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not in their power set now is it?

Yes, that was the point. My statement was pointless and illogical, like yours about future laserbeams. 

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I'd rather you refrain from personal attacks.

That is not a personal attack. You want to pitch ancient Lightweaver, with Jasnah, 4th ideal Elsecaller, standing next to perpendicularity in OB skill level, against modern Mistborn who "didn't train with electrum" because "he is person first". And when I proposed to equalize the fighting field and placed ancient Mistborn with Atium, against ancient Lightweaver, you jump straight into future lasers. That jump was pointless. That was not an argument in any way.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that was the point. My statement was pointless and illogical, like yours about future laserbeams.

It was literally just your argument about atium mistborn applied to lightweavers.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Beyond that, your only evidence for Stormlight cost being perception based, at least so far as I can tell, is that it would explain how stormlight consumption could be based on volume, and your evidence for stormlight consumption being based on volume is... what, exactly?

The fact that it clearly isn't mass based.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Yeah, but Jasnah's far beyond them.

Yeah, like 7 times better.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And Kaza was a savant.

Savant or not she used a fabrial, which we know has different mechanics, and additional limitations.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Vin vs every Inquisitor? 

The fight that lasted maybe a minute tops?

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

And also them not noting electrum as burning quickly?

They think Tin is the slowest, but Brandon said that was clearly not the case. That same WoB says that Gold burns increadibly fast too.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Atium still has to "check" the future of everything around you, even if it won't move. Electrum only has to do it for you.

 

Atium only has to generate a single future per person, Electrum has to do dozens.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

So every time the Mistborn gets in close they'd soulcast? they'll run out of Stormlight very quickly, if they use it that often.

They'd win quickly you mean.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

With something like hitting a tennis ball it'd be difficult, but with an aoe attack like the Radiant would have, every single shadow, or almost all of them, will freeze in place until the Mistborn realizes that they need to dodge. No lengthy training required.

Yes there is, you have to train yourself to read and react, as well as realizing that they are trapped, not merely deciding to stop.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Lightweavers are selected against being from military backgrounds, then thrown into a sort-of military group, where they are trained to be spies first and fighters second. 

That's not true, several lightweavers were soldiers before swearing oaths.

25 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Mistborn are not selected for at all genetically or personality-wise, but are selected to be fighters because of their powers.

Spies and thieves, not fighters.

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That is not a personal attack.

If it wasn't I don't know what is.

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That is not a personal attack. You want to pitch ancient Lightweaver, with Jasnah, 4th ideal Elsecaller, standing next to perpendicularity in OB skill level, against modern Mistborn who "didn't train with electrum" because "he is person first". And when I proposed to equalize the fighting field and placed ancient Mistborn with Atium, against ancient Lightweaver, you jump straight into future lasers. That jump was pointless. That was not an argument in any way.

You are conflating multiple arguments I made, most of them done to point out holes in other people's arguments, without any context.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Primeival Chaos]

Ok this is getting off topic. Before we start yelling at each other, can we just reset? Instead of saying "no u" to everything, can we agree on where they are fighting and what resources they have? How about this.

Spoilered for size.

Spoiler

 

Before we begin-

Mistborn knows what Lightweaver can do and Lightweaver knows what Mistborn can do.

Lightweaver is only capable of long range Soulcasting with at least 2 or 3 seconds of concentration, but can easily do it from melee range. Lightweaver has enough Stormlight to sustain an extended battle, but not enough to support being grievously wounded (stabbed in the neck, spine broken, etc.) over and over for long. They are not aware of nor know how to use lasers or radiation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9287)

Mistborn does not have any atium, but has multiple vials of the 8 basic metals, enough to not have to worry over an extended fight. The mistborn has enough duralumin for 3 uses, 1 minute of bendalloy, and 5 minutes of cadmium. They have enough chromium to completely leech the Lightweaver and a little left over, but not much more. This leeching would take 3 seconds to do completely. The Mistborn is resistant to Soulcasting, as per this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2675) WoB. The Mistborn is unable to tell what is an illusion and what isn't as I believe that Bronze wouldn't hear Lightweaving if it is "quieter". However, they would be able to sense Soulcasting in the moment that it happens. Also, they can Leech away the illusions of the Lightweaver if they touch them. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15032) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023)

They are on an infinite, flat plain, and start 50 feet away from each other. Ignore all of the problems with Roshar having more oxygen or less gravity, or vice versa. They are both adapted to their surroundings.

There are a few ways I can see this fight going. 

 

Scenario 1- 

Spoiler

Lightweaver takes in Stormlight and immediately makes a bunch of illusions of themself to run around and distract the Mistborn. Mistborn sprays coins around themself, pushing and pulling until one of the coins wobbles slightly. That would let the Mistborn know in what direction the Lightweaver was, even if the Lightweaver healed. They launch in that direction. The Lightweaver panics and tries to soulcast the Mistborn, but the Mistborn is too invested. The Mistborn bats away the newly formed Sprenblade with the grace of Pewter and grabs the Lightweaver, leeching them, before ultimately stabbing them or breaking them over their knee.

Scenario 2-

Spoiler

Mistborn launches themselves at Lightweaver immediately. However, the Lightweaver soulcasts a wall rising up from the ground that they are touching. The Mistborn runs into the wall, stunned. The Lightweaver then throws up a bunch of illusions around the Mistborn, soulcasting some of them so that the Mistborn is even more disoriented. Illusionary warriors rush at the Mistborn. The Mistborn tries to recover in time, but they are in a full box of stone. The Lightweaver then continues to tighten the box with Soulcasting until the Mistborn dies.

 

Obviously, these are just possibilities. The Lightweaver may be faster or slower with their abilities, and the Mistborn might be more or less aware of what the Lightweaver is doing. However, I think that there are some certainties. 

Whoever gets the drop on the other wins. Mistborn assassinates, Lightweaver disorients.

If they get in close quarters, Mistborn wins, no question. Assuming equal training, the Mistborn is still faster and much stronger than Lightweaver, with better reflexes and Leeching abilites. The Lightweaver cannot Soulcast the Mistborn.

Long range is in the Lightweaver's favor. They can heal from the coins easily, and throw illusions out to their heart's content.

However, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that the Mistborn wins more.

What are some other scenarios that you guys can think of? Do you agree with my assessment? What about my rules about their abilities? 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Primeival Chaos

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Ok this is getting off topic. Before we start yelling at each other, can we just reset? Instead of saying "no u" to everything, can we agree on where they are fighting and what resources they have? How about this.

Spoilered for size.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Before we begin-

Mistborn knows what Lightweaver can do and Lightweaver knows what Mistborn can do.

Lightweaver is only capable of long range Soulcasting with at least 2 or 3 seconds of concentration, but can easily do it from melee range. Lightweaver has enough Stormlight to sustain an extended battle, but not enough to support being grievously wounded (stabbed in the neck, spine broken, etc.) over and over for long. They are not aware of nor know how to use lasers or radiation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9287)

Mistborn does not have any atium, but has multiple vials of the 8 basic metals, enough to not have to worry over an extended fight. The mistborn has enough duralumin for 3 uses, 1 minute of bendalloy, and 5 minutes of cadmium. They have enough chromium to completely leech the Lightweaver and a little left over, but not much more. This leeching would take 3 seconds to do completely. The Mistborn is resistant to Soulcasting, as per this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2675) WoB. The Mistborn is unable to tell what is an illusion and what isn't as I believe that Bronze wouldn't hear Lightweaving if it is "quieter". However, they would be able to sense Soulcasting in the moment that it happens. Also, they can Leech away the illusions of the Lightweaver if they touch them. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15032) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023)

They are on an infinite, flat plain, and start 50 feet away from each other. Ignore all of the problems with Roshar having more oxygen or less gravity, or vice versa. They are both adapted to their surroundings.

There are a few ways I can see this fight going. 

 

Scenario 1- 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lightweaver takes in Stormlight and immediately makes a bunch of illusions of themself to run around and distract the Mistborn. Mistborn sprays coins around themself, pushing and pulling until one of the coins wobbles slightly. That would let the Mistborn know in what direction the Lightweaver was, even if the Lightweaver healed. They launch in that direction. The Lightweaver panics and tries to soulcast the Mistborn, but the Mistborn is too invested. The Mistborn bats away the newly formed Sprenblade with the grace of Pewter and grabs the Lightweaver, leeching them, before ultimately stabbing them or breaking them over their knee.

Scenario 2-

  Reveal hidden contents

Mistborn launches themselves at Lightweaver immediately. However, the Lightweaver soulcasts a wall rising up from the ground that they are touching. The Mistborn runs into the wall, stunned. The Lightweaver then throws up a bunch of illusions around the Mistborn, soulcasting some of them so that the Mistborn is even more disoriented. Illusionary warriors rush at the Mistborn. The Mistborn tries to recover in time, but they are in a full box of stone. The Lightweaver then continues to tighten the box with Soulcasting until the Mistborn dies.

 

Obviously, these are just possibilities. The Lightweaver may be faster or slower with their abilities, and the Mistborn might be more or less aware of what the Lightweaver is doing. However, I think that there are some certainties. 

Whoever gets the drop on the other wins. Mistborn assassinates, Lightweaver disorients.

If they get in close quarters, Mistborn wins, no question. Assuming equal training, the Mistborn is still faster and much stronger than Lightweaver, with better reflexes and Leeching abilites. The Lightweaver cannot Soulcast the Mistborn.

Long range is in the Lightweaver's favor. They can heal from the coins easily, and throw illusions out to their heart's content.

However, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that the Mistborn wins more.

What are some other scenarios that you guys can think of? Do you agree with my assessment? What about my rules about their abilities? 

See I would say almost exactly the opposite. Shardblades are the king of close quarter combat. If the lightweaver can form a hallway made of stone and trap the both in their they win automatically. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The fact that it clearly isn't mass based.

Evidence?

Just now, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yeah, like 7 times better.

They can barely consistently soulcast basic food.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Savant or not she used a fabrial, which we know has different mechanics, and additional limitations.

And Jasnah is better than her at everything.

1 minute ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

The fight that lasted maybe a minute tops?

Haven't read it in a while, so maybe.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

They think Tin is the slowest, but Brandon said that was clearly not the case. That same WoB says that Gold burns increadibly fast too.

Even if electrum burns as fast as Atium, it'll be easy enough to get enough of it. A pouch of beads or a canteen of metals will contain enough for an extended fight.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Atium only has to generate a single future per person, Electrum has to do dozens.

Electrum generates one future per person, but that future changes because they can see it.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Yes there is, you have to train yourself to read and react, as well as realizing that they are trapped, not merely deciding to stop.

Yes you'll need training to react, but all of your shadows will not simply stop moving at once for any reason other than being trapped. Easy enough to react to.

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

That's not true, several lightweavers were soldiers before swearing oaths.

Yes, but they're also not ordinary Lightweavers. Most people that were attracted after the deserters were just ordinary people.

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Spies and thieves, not fighters.

They are trained to fight using their powers, and to fight other metalborn. Out of all the Mistborn we've seen, only one of them was not a capable fighter. On the other hand, many Lightweavers have basically no real combat experience.

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

If it wasn't I don't know what is.

He claimed that the arguments you were making were pointless. He did not insult your person. It may have been offensive to you, but it was not, by definition, a personal attack.

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

See I would say almost exactly the opposite. Shardblades are the king of close quarter combat. If the lightweaver can form a hallway made of stone and trap the both in their they win automatically. 

Mistborn has an instant win button in chromium, and they're stronger and faster than the Radiant.

@Primeival Chaos I think that bronze would detect illusions. It can detect Shardblades being summoned:
 

Quote

Rasarr

Could a Seeker detect a Shardbearer? For example, could Vin detect Adolin's Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

That detects Kinetic Investiture, Investiture that's being used actively, so in the summoning process, you'd probably get a blip on that, but not just looking at someone and seeing it.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

And stormlight that's been breathed in:

Quote

Questioner

Would a Seeker know if something's endowed with Breath or if someone was holding it?

Brandon Sanderson

Seekers have a lot of trouble with just detecting Investiture that isn't being used in some way. They could catch Stormlight that you've breathed in, because it's starting to do stuff. If just something has Stormlight, like a gemstone or something like that...

Questioner

I meant from Warbreaker. If you'd endowed like, a large thing with that, could you see that?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, something with Breath, could they find that with a Seeker. That's right. There are theoretical applications of this, but I would say your average Seeker, no. There is a way to get there but if you just took a Seeker from - and said do you - they would not be able to do that.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

And in general bronze is one of the best methods of detecting investiture:

Quote

Questioner

Would a Seeker burning bronze be able to tell what order of Knight Radiant someone is? Or what Surges they have access to?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but they'd have to be actively using it, right? So you could hear somebody -- for instance -- Lashing, but if you just saw somebody who'd drawn in Stormlight, you probably wouldn't be able to tell until they use that Stormlight, which it was. You'd be able to probably hear that they have the Stormlight.

Questioner

So the pulses are not unique to Scadrial's Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No they're not. You'd be able to do that. In fact there are other things in the cosmere that are kind of the same sort of "radar detection" here and there, that you can read in the same way. Bronze is just the one of the best... way to do it -- being a Seeker is really handy for these reasons.

Being able to go off-planet with your Allomancy also is a pretty big advantage. It's really hard, for instance, to get a Surgebinder off of Roshar, because of the Connection stuff that's happening. In fact you may have heard in a prologue just recently someone complaining about that.

Footnote: The prologue Brandon talks about can be found here.
DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

[Primeival Chaos]

6 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

 

@Primeival Chaos I think that bronze would detect illusions. It can detect Shardblades being summoned:
 

And stormlight that's been breathed in:

And in general bronze is one of the best methods of detecting investiture:

 

That's a good point. Being able to identify illusions is a major point in Mistborn's favor.

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

See I would say almost exactly the opposite. Shardblades are the king of close quarter combat. If the lightweaver can form a hallway made of stone and trap the both in their they win automatically. 

Shardblades are definitely one of the major things keeping a Mistborn from absolutely stomping a Lightweaver. Instantly creating any weapon is certainly powerful, but I think that the advantages offered by pewter, electrum, and chromium can outweigh that. Yes, the Shardblades cripple you if you are hit, but Mistborn are very good at dodging, especially with only one enemy. All the Mistborn has to do is knock away the Shardblade and start leeching. However, if the Lightweaver gets a lucky hit in, they could win. I imagine a close quarters fight going like this.

The Lightweaver summons their Sprenblade. The Mistborn then puts up a bendalloy bubble, gets out of the way of the swing, sends a super Soothe at them, and jumps closer. They use pewter to knock away the Sprenblade and leech the Lightweaver. The Lightweaver is now defenseless against the mega-strong Mistborn. 

In what scenario would a Lightweaver beat a Mistborn in a close-quarters fight? I legitimately don't see how the Lightweaver could win, unless they had some weird Soulcasting Lightweaving shenanigans already going on or Dues ex Machina. Could you expound more on this @Ookla the Frustrated.?

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

Ok this is getting off topic. Before we start yelling at each other, can we just reset? Instead of saying "no u" to everything, can we agree on where they are fighting and what resources they have? How about this.

Spoilered for size.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Before we begin-

Mistborn knows what Lightweaver can do and Lightweaver knows what Mistborn can do.

Lightweaver is only capable of long range Soulcasting with at least 2 or 3 seconds of concentration, but can easily do it from melee range. Lightweaver has enough Stormlight to sustain an extended battle, but not enough to support being grievously wounded (stabbed in the neck, spine broken, etc.) over and over for long. They are not aware of nor know how to use lasers or radiation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9287)

Mistborn does not have any atium, but has multiple vials of the 8 basic metals, enough to not have to worry over an extended fight. The mistborn has enough duralumin for 3 uses, 1 minute of bendalloy, and 5 minutes of cadmium. They have enough chromium to completely leech the Lightweaver and a little left over, but not much more. This leeching would take 3 seconds to do completely. The Mistborn is resistant to Soulcasting, as per this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2675) WoB. The Mistborn is unable to tell what is an illusion and what isn't as I believe that Bronze wouldn't hear Lightweaving if it is "quieter". However, they would be able to sense Soulcasting in the moment that it happens. Also, they can Leech away the illusions of the Lightweaver if they touch them. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475/#e15032) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023)

They are on an infinite, flat plain, and start 50 feet away from each other. Ignore all of the problems with Roshar having more oxygen or less gravity, or vice versa. They are both adapted to their surroundings.

There are a few ways I can see this fight going. 

 

Scenario 1- 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lightweaver takes in Stormlight and immediately makes a bunch of illusions of themself to run around and distract the Mistborn. Mistborn sprays coins around themself, pushing and pulling until one of the coins wobbles slightly. That would let the Mistborn know in what direction the Lightweaver was, even if the Lightweaver healed. They launch in that direction. The Lightweaver panics and tries to soulcast the Mistborn, but the Mistborn is too invested. The Mistborn bats away the newly formed Sprenblade with the grace of Pewter and grabs the Lightweaver, leeching them, before ultimately stabbing them or breaking them over their knee.

Scenario 2-

  Reveal hidden contents

Mistborn launches themselves at Lightweaver immediately. However, the Lightweaver soulcasts a wall rising up from the ground that they are touching. The Mistborn runs into the wall, stunned. The Lightweaver then throws up a bunch of illusions around the Mistborn, soulcasting some of them so that the Mistborn is even more disoriented. Illusionary warriors rush at the Mistborn. The Mistborn tries to recover in time, but they are in a full box of stone. The Lightweaver then continues to tighten the box with Soulcasting until the Mistborn dies.

 

Obviously, these are just possibilities. The Lightweaver may be faster or slower with their abilities, and the Mistborn might be more or less aware of what the Lightweaver is doing. However, I think that there are some certainties. 

Whoever gets the drop on the other wins. Mistborn assassinates, Lightweaver disorients.

If they get in close quarters, Mistborn wins, no question. Assuming equal training, the Mistborn is still faster and much stronger than Lightweaver, with better reflexes and Leeching abilites. The Lightweaver cannot Soulcast the Mistborn.

Long range is in the Lightweaver's favor. They can heal from the coins easily, and throw illusions out to their heart's content.

However, and this is just my personal opinion, I think that the Mistborn wins more.

What are some other scenarios that you guys can think of? Do you agree with my assessment? What about my rules about their abilities? 

This is a thoughtful analize with reasonable set of rules. I would give them both more Stormlight and metals with electrum, and specify what is considered by long range.

There are lot's of scenarios that can be made, Mistborn can use emotional allomancy to make Lightweaver fearful and cowardly, or overly aggressive to manipulate him as he wants. He can use duralumin with emotional allomancy to paralyzed him just before closing distance and leeching. There is just too much moves to consider, and all can be countered, but listing all the moves is just pointless tug of war.

Mistborn will be better in close quarters combat - he can easily outmaneuver Shardblade with pewter, and grab both of Lightweaver's hands while leeching. Shardblade gives you range advantage, but once he dodges it and comes closer, Lightweaver wouldn't have time to react, even by changing its shape.

12 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I think that bronze would detect illusions. It can detect Shardblades being summoned:

I only think that bronze won't be able to detect illusions because secretsprens weren't able to do it in OB.

[Frustration]

17 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Evidence?

Wheb Jasnah turned the stone into smoke in WoK, where did the excess mass go?

17 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

They can barely consistently soulcast basic food.

Consistently enough they are willing to bet their lives on it. And Jasnah isn't exactly great at food herself.

17 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Even if electrum burns as fast as Atium, it'll be easy enough to get enough of it. A pouch of beads or a canteen of metals will contain enough for an extended fight.

Electrum isn't exactly cheap, and any extra you give to the mistborn you jave to give the radiant as well.

17 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Yes you'll need training to react, but all of your shadows will not simply stop moving at once for any reason other than being trapped. Easy enough to react to.

You aren't only keeping track of multiple shadows, but can react to them? What if the Lightweaver throws their blade at that moment? Stopping seems like a pretty good option.

18 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Yes, but they're also not ordinary Lightweavers. Most people that were attracted after the deserters were just ordinary people.

You mean Berryl and that one girl who was interested in ghostbloods? Other than them and Shallan all the ones we know of have combat experience. And just about every Mistborn will be an "ordinary" person, but if the mistborn gets combat training so does the lightweaver.

20 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Mistborn has an instant win button in chromium, and they're stronger and faster than the Radiant

 

3 minutes ago, Primeival Chaos said:

 In what scenario would a Lightweaver beat a Mistborn in a close-quarters fight? I legitimately don't see how the Lightweaver could win, unless they had some weird Soulcasting Lightweaving shenanigans already going on or Dues ex Machina. Could you expound more on this @Ookla the Frustrated.?

I'll combine these two. After locking both of them in a hallway the Lightweaver forms a shield covered in spikes, large enough to block the hallway. After that they simply walk forward. The Mistborn can't break stone, can't hit the lightweaver, and has no way to survive.