Frustration's Firepower Index: Threnody

[Frustration he/him]

Welcome to Frustration's Firepower Index, a collection of threads giving a comprehensive analysis of each cosmere world's combat capabilities. This thread will focus on the World of Threnody as it appears in Shadows for Silence, with some information from later Mistborn Broadsheets.

 

Shards: Threnody has no known Shards. 0/4.5

 

Dawnshards: Threnody has no known Dawnshards 0/1

 

Defenses: Threnody has no stable perpendicularity, with the only ones appearing being unpredictable and infrequent. The invading force also is unlikely to know the three simple rules and will suffer a lot more shade attacks than the Threnodites would. Additionally their fighting might draw a Deepest One to them, and the continent with the Evil is dangerous and will need to be avoided. 2.5/5.5

 

Offenses: Lacking a stable perpendicularity Threnody lacks the ability to make large offensives. -3/1

 

Natural advantages: Threnodites have a chance to become shades upon death, effectively increasing their ability to defend against invaders who don't know the simply rules. However their population is small having just survived a cataclysm a few generations ago. 0/2

 

Armed forces: Threnody as a consequence of the Evil has a relatively small population, but they do know about gunpowder, and may make use of it if they go off world. There are several small forts acting as government, but no groups we know enough about to list as notable. 1/12

 

Economics and technology: There is limited trade between forts, but it does exist, which puts severe restraints on any industry that threnody wishes to partake in. Threnody mostly uses medieval weapons due to the simple rules, but they at one point knew how to make gunpowder. -1/7.5

 

Logistics:

• On Wolrd: Threnody has a fleet of seafaring vessels, and several roads and bridges linking the forts. However shades limit shipping, and will attack anyone moving quickly at night. 1/10
• Off world: Threnody lacks a stable perpendicularity and thus cannot reliable move materials off world. -5/3

 

Intelligence: Threnody has nothing special in intelligence: 0/10.5

 

Counterintelligence: Threnody has nothing special in counterintelligence. 0/9

 

Allies: Threnody has no allies. 0/1

 

Notable uses of investiture: Nahz has guns that shoot shades, if these are able to be reproduced it turns Threnody into a serious threat. +1

 

Recommended strategies: Threnody is a small world, probably one of the weakest, which has only a single major resource in shades. The way I see it they have two options, either develop advanced shade weapons to the point that it would be more trouble for larger worlds to conquer you than it's worth, or otherwise quickly form an alliance.

 

Overall ranking: -3.5/67

 

Did I miss anything? What do you think of the rankings, and what should I do next?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Frustration

[Zapata]

It is implied in Secret History that shades exist in Threnody's subastral and are considered an active threat, at least to the Ire. In fact, the Ire (and shadegun) imply that those shades might be able to leave Thenody's subastral. Lastly, the Homeland's Cognitive Realm reflection is dangerous due to the presence of the Evil. 

[Frustration he/him]

13 minutes ago, Ookla the Observant said:

It is implied in Secret History that shades exist in Threnody's subastral and are considered an active threat, at least to the Ire. In fact, the Ire (and shadegun) imply that those shades might be able to leave Thenody's subastral. Lastly, the Homeland's Cognitive Realm reflection is dangerous due to the presence of the Evil. 

That's true, must have missed that, thank you.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[Isilel]

Who would want to conquer them? Also, I very much hope that Nazh's gun doesn't literally shoot shades, which are then free to wander around, because wouldn't his using it on other planets start a shade-creation cascade there otherwise? This also may be a scary potential planetary-eradication weapon in Threnodite arsenal, if they figure out how to reach other worlds. Unless the shades can't maintain and multiply themselves longterm elsewhere, that is. We know that they can leave the subastral, after all, so there must be a reason why they didn't yet overrun Shadesmar, etc.

Though it now occurs to me that Scadrians, with their chromium and aluminum allomancy and harmonium grenades may have decent chances against the shades. There is still nothing on Threnody anybody would want, though, apart from possibly the shades themselves, if people find out how to use them as weapons or magi-tech fuel.

[lacrossedeamon]

Whatever the Evil is (fain? midnight essence?) and if non human sentient/sapient life lives there will be important to accurately judging the capabilities. Silver might be invested in odd ways here. The Night Brigade might also be native to the system.

[Frustration he/him]

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

Who would want to conquer them? Also, I very much hope that Nazh's gun doesn't literally shoot shades, which are then free to wander around, because wouldn't his using it on other planets start a shade-creation cascade there otherwise? This also may be a scary potential planetary-eradication weapon in Threnodite arsenal, if they figure out how to reach other worlds. Unless the shades can't maintain and multiply themselves longterm elsewhere, that is. We know that they can leave the subastral, after all, so there must be a reason why they didn't yet overrun Shadesmar, etc.

Though it now occurs to me that Scadrians, with their chromium and aluminum allomancy and harmonium grenades may have decent chances against the shades. There is still nothing on Threnody anybody would want, though, apart from possibly the shades themselves, if people find out how to use them as weapons or magi-tech fuel.

Only Threnodites can become Shades. And the Shades Nahz's gun shoots appear to vanish after a certain point.

6 hours ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Whatever the Evil is (fain? midnight essence?) and if non human sentient/sapient life lives there will be important to accurately judging the capabilities. Silver might be invested in odd ways here. The Night Brigade might also be native to the system.

The Night Brigade is Native to Thenody, but given that our knowledge of them is limited to the fact that they exist I decided not to include them.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Ookla the Frustrated.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 7.12.2022 at 6:22 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Armed forces: Threnody mostly uses medieval weapons due to the three rules, and as a consequence of the Evil has a relatively small population, but they do know about gunpowder, and may make use of it if they go off world. There are several small forts acting as government, but no groups we know enough about to list as notable.

That is true for the human Threnodites who fled from the Evil. We have no idea how sapient the Evil is and what become of the people staying on the old continent. And that is the major problem of the rest of the analysis.

On 7.12.2022 at 6:22 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Notable uses of investiture: Nahz has guns that shoot shades, if these are able to be reproduced it turns Threnody into a serious threat.

Provided it was developed there. For all we know it was made in Silverlight.

 

On 7.12.2022 at 7:04 PM, Ookla the Observant said:

It is implied in Secret History that shades exist in Threnody's subastral and are considered an active threat, at least to the Ire. In fact, the Ire (and shadegun) imply that those shades might be able to leave Thenody's subastral. Lastly, the Homeland's Cognitive Realm reflection is dangerous due to the presence of the Evil. 

They mistook Kelsier for a Shade. Now we do not know how a Shade looks in Shadesmar, but there is a very good chance Threnody before the Evil had other Shades than current THrenody.

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That is true for the human Threnodites who fled from the Evil. We have no idea how sapient the Evil is and what become of the people staying on the old continent. And that is the major problem of the rest of the analysis.

Could you elaborate further? I'm afraid I don't understand what problem this causes.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Provided it was developed there. For all we know it was made in Silverlight.

That is true. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Could you elaborate further? I'm afraid I don't understand what problem this causes.

Because if you attack Threnody, whom will you fight against? The Threnodites? The Threnodites and the Shades? The Threnodites, the Shades and the Evil? That is if you decide to only invade the Forests of Hell and the Evil decides that it is not OK with an alien beachhead on its world even on another continent and comes to fight you, your war plans have just been seriously derailed.

[Frustration he/him]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because if you attack Threnody, whom will you fight against? The Threnodites? The Threnodites and the Shades? The Threnodites, the Shades and the Evil? That is if you decide to only invade the Forests of Hell and the Evil decides that it is not OK with an alien beachhead on its world even on another continent and comes to fight you, your war plans have just been seriously derailed.

Alright, that's  fair but here's my question: What is the Evil?

I can't make a full analysis of the Evil if we don't know what it is. Can the Evil leave its continent? Is it even sentient in the first place? We just don't know enough to say, so I don't think I can go into more detail than I have.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

Alright, that's  fair but here's my question: What is the Evil?

We do not know. Neither would an attacker.

4 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

I can't make a full analysis of the Evil if we don't know what it is. Can the Evil leave its continent? Is it even sentient in the first place? We just don't know enough to say, so I don't think I can go into more detail than I have.

That suggests that you are missing a category of analysis indicating the quality and quantity of intelligence an attacker could gather.

[alder24]

On 7.12.2022 at 6:22 PM, Frustration said:

Defenses: Threnody has no stable perpendicularity, with the only ones appearing being unpredictable and infrequent. The invading force also is unlikely to know the three simple rules and will suffer a lot more shade attacks than the Threnodites would. Additionally their fighting might draw a Deepest One to them, and the continent with the Evil is dangerous and will need to be avoided. 2.5/5

Sooo I'm not voicing for a change, more points or anything, I'm just voicing my opinion on this one. 

Shades being both present in CR and PR, and being enraged by blood, running, and explosions, would make any invasion impossible to conduct. Invasion means fighting, and this means blood, death, running and explosions - this would attract Shades like magnet and make any fights imposible, as now you have to "defend" yourself from Shades. Shades alone would quickly destroy any army. Even silver is damaged when in contact with Shades. Defenders/partisans just need to set up traps and explosives in Forests of Hell which, when triggered, would send army of enraged Shades on your enemy, while defenders are safely sipping bear miles away - like Silence did.

Even advancing through CR you have to first avoid all Shades in there. Ire has troops on Threnody's CR border to prevent Shades from escaping. They are a significant danger.

And also you have whole continent swallowed by mysterious Evil, which was so dangerous, that humanity abandoned that continent and chose to settle with deadly Shades instead. This continent is very dangerous to visit in CR. This is the only instance in the whole Cosmere, where some force/entity killed and displaced all of humans living there and prevents them from returning (nobody that went to Homeland returned) - not even destruction of Ashyn and Desolations were on the same level. This alone tells that Evil is not a force to mess with.

This all makes me think, that it is impossible to contuct a classical invasion of this planet. Invading force would be force to deal with Shades and possibly Evil and Deepest One, not with the sparse defenders. The only way for any invasion to be successful, that I see, is to gather large enough forces outside of Threnody's CR and make an ultimatum, demanding unconditional and total surrender. But, as we know from history, this almost never works, and small partisan group would be enough to decimate any occupying force by sending waves of Shades on them. 

[Frustration he/him]

39 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sooo I'm not voicing for a change, more points or anything, I'm just voicing my opinion on this one. 

Shades being both present in CR and PR, and being enraged by blood, running, and explosions, would make any invasion impossible to conduct. Invasion means fighting, and this means blood, death, running and explosions - this would attract Shades like magnet and make any fights imposible, as now you have to "defend" yourself from Shades. Shades alone would quickly destroy any army. Even silver is damaged when in contact with Shades. Defenders/partisans just need to set up traps and explosives in Forests of Hell which, when triggered, would send army of enraged Shades on your enemy, while defenders are safely sipping bear miles away - like Silence did.

Even advancing through CR you have to first avoid all Shades in there. Ire has troops on Threnody's CR border to prevent Shades from escaping. They are a significant danger.

And also you have whole continent swallowed by mysterious Evil, which was so dangerous, that humanity abandoned that continent and chose to settle with deadly Shades instead. This continent is very dangerous to visit in CR. This is the only instance in the whole Cosmere, where some force/entity killed and displaced all of humans living there and prevents them from returning (nobody that went to Homeland returned) - not even destruction of Ashyn and Desolations were on the same level. This alone tells that Evil is not a force to mess with.

This all makes me think, that it is impossible to contuct a classical invasion of this planet. Invading force would be force to deal with Shades and possibly Evil and Deepest One, not with the sparse defenders. The only way for any invasion to be successful, that I see, is to gather large enough forces outside of Threnody's CR and make an ultimatum, demanding unconditional and total surrender. But, as we know from history, this almost never works, and small partisan group would be enough to decimate any occupying force by sending waves of Shades on them. 

Do the Shades exist in the CR, I can't find anything confirming that. I know that the IRE was watching for Threnodite CS, but that was also before the Evil came, and given Nahz's statements they had ways to turn people into CS back then.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Do the Shades exist in the CR, I can't find anything confirming that. I know that the IRE was watching for Threnodite CS, but that was also before the Evil came, and given Nahz's statements they had ways to turn people into CS back then.

I think the Evil came after Shades were discovered on second continent (that's why it was named Hell). So Ire watching for Shades in CR is confirmation, that they do exist also in CR.  From Coppermind on Evil:

Quote

Sometime after the people of Threnody discovered the continent that contains the Forests of Hell, an unknown cataclysm occurred in their Homeland. A being or force referred to only as the Evil appeared and somehow managed to kill the majority of people living on their continent.

 

[Frustration he/him]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think the Evil came after Shades were discovered on second continent (that's why it was named Hell). So Ire watching for Shades in CR is confirmation, that they do exist also in CR.  From Coppermind on Evil:

 

The Shades did exist before, but so did Cognitive Shadows from the Homeland, which I do not think would count as shades.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Shades did exist before, but so did Cognitive Shadows from the Homeland, which I do not think would count as shades.

No they not, but if they are as normal as anywhere else (which Nazh suggest) , Ire would not have a problem with them leaving Threnody. Shades are on the other hand extremely dangerous, and if they manage to leave Threnody, they could exist on the other planets. In order to escape, they have to exist also in CR (they don't look much physical in PR tbf)

Quote

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)