Frustration's Firepower Index: Scadrial

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Didn’t see that quote, there is a similar one saying there are ways to fuel awakening with SL.

There are ways, they just aren't easy, or known as of the moment.

[StanLemon]

I expect by Era 3, Scadrial will have or at least be in the process of developing a mechanical way to strip Identity. They have not one but two magic systems that allow for it

[alder24]

On 30.11.2022 at 11:01 PM, Frustration said:

Scadrial has few natural defenses

I highly disagree. Look at the new map of Scadrial. Mountain ranges and rivers are scattered all across the continent, granting great defensive capabilities. Elendel Basin is surrounded by circle of snow covered mountains, and crossed by multiple rivers and extensive canal network - perfect for defence. Even modern warfare has difficulties with crossing rivers and mountains and fighting in mountains. 

On top of that, Scadrial being sparsely populated is advantageous in terms of defence, as it lack infrastructure for logistic and movement of large army. Outside of the Basin there is no roads, no train rails, not cities or population centers providing shelter, no food to forage, no easily accessible clean water. Of course the same problems applies for Scadrial if they try to defend those lands. Moving thousands of troop through the fields with no roads is a logistical nightmare as the fields quickly turn into mud and your army get stuck in it.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

16 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I expect by Era 3, Scadrial will have or at least be in the process of developing a mechanical way to strip Identity. They have not one but two magic systems that allow for it

There is Fuerochemistry and what? Hemalurgic use of Durilium?

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I highly disagree. Look at the new map of Scadrial. Mountain ranges and rivers are scattered all across the continent, granting great defensive capabilities. Elendel Basin is surrounded by circle of snow covered mountains, and crossed by multiple rivers and extensive canal network - perfect for defence. Even modern warfare has difficulties with crossing rivers and mountains and fighting in mountains. 

On top of that, Scadrial being sparsely populated is advantageous in terms of defence, as it lack infrastructure for logistic and movement of large army. Outside of the Basin there is no roads, no train rails, not cities or population centers providing shelter, no food to forage, no easily accessible clean water. Of course the same problems applies for Scadrial if they try to defend those lands. Moving thousands of troop through the fields with no roads is a logistical nightmare as the fields quickly turn into mud and your army get stuck in it.

Going from the Perpendicularity to the basin only requires them to cross a single mountain range, which has pathways to the basin. From there an invading force won't need to cross mountains again until they invade the Malwish.

And there is one very important detail about those rivers that ruins their potential defensive use: They are all navigable. Rather than hindering an invading army they provide quick and easy transportation to the Basin's capital and largest population center.

And even if they don't take the time to build boats rail lines run perpendicular to the rivers, allowing them to follow those.

The invading army has no reason to leave the Basin until they finished conquering it, as there are no noteworthy population centers outside of it.

[alder24]

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Going from the Perpendicularity to the basin only requires them to cross a single mountain range, which has pathways to the basin. From there an invading force won't need to cross mountains again until they invade the Malwish.

And there is one very important detail about those rivers that ruins their potential defensive use: They are all navigable. Rather than hindering an invading army they provide quick and easy transportation to the Basin's capital and largest population center.

And even if they don't take the time to build boats rail lines run perpendicular to the rivers, allowing them to follow those.

The invading army has no reason to leave the Basin until they finished conquering it, as there are no noteworthy population centers outside of it.

Crosing any mountain range is ALWAYS a very troublesome. Just because there are some paths through the mountains, it doesn't mean that it's easy. However it means, that it can be easily defended while being severely outnumbered. The fact that Basin is surrounded by mountains is extreamly advantageous, as defenders can't be outflanked. Mountain ranges can be easily made into fortresses, with walls made by nature. And if the invading army made it through the mountains, they would still have to bring their whole supplies through them, making them extreamly vulnerable to any partisans and saboteurs attacks. Defenders can easily use tnt to make an avalanche, and block the way in.

Navigable rivers? Yes they are. But any invading army would need to first capture WHOLE river on both sides and all its length. And the only thing defenders need to do is to blow out all brigdes and mine the rivers - then they are not only no longer nabigable, but also uncrossable. Defenders can use the river as natural moat, as any invading army have to build a brigde first, while being under fire. Easy? 

Rails can be blown up.

Crossing mountains is extreamly hard and costly. Just look into history - Thermopylae battle, Hannibal's crossing of the Alps, wars with Swiss, wars in Afganistan. River crossings - look into current war in Ukraine. Both mountains and rivers are huge natural obstacles, easy to defend, hard to overcome. The Elendel Basin is surrounded by ring of mountain ranges, and crossed by rivers and cannals.

But your index is not just about Basin alone, but whole Scadrial, and as we clearly see on the map, whole continent is covered by vast mountain ranges and river networks. There is like 6-7 mountain ranges in Malwish alone, going east to west, all separated by huge rivers (flowing east-west) - any invading army marching south would have to cross the mountains, then a river, then mountains again, then another river etc. No flat lands in between, until the very south of the Malwish, with lots of rivers. No way around them on land. Any invading army have to cross all these mountains and rivers, which all can be easily defended. And I don't even want to start on logistic and suplly chains. 

 

That's why I would not consider Scadrial as "having few natural defences".

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But your index is not just about Basin alone, but whole Scadrial, and as we clearly see on the map, whole continent is covered by vast mountain ranges and river networks. There is like 6-7 mountain ranges in Malwish alone, going east to west, all separated by huge rivers (flowing east-west) - any invading army marching south would have to cross the mountains, then a river, then mountains again, then another river etc. No flat lands in between, until the very south of the Malwish, with lots of rivers. No way around them on land. Any invading army have to cross all these mountains and rivers, which all can be easily defended. And I don't even want to start on logistic and suplly chains.

The mountain ranges are all low lying, as indicated by their icons, which I mentioned in the initial analysis.

And while the Malwish do have mountains they can't survive there long due to their need of warmth. And most of their continent is accessable via the ocean.

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Navigable rivers? Yes they are. But any invading army would need to first capture WHOLE river on both sides and all its length. And the only thing defenders need to do is to blow out all brigdes and mine the rivers - then they are not only no longer nabigable, but also uncrossable. Defenders can use the river as natural moat, as any invading army have to build a brigde first, while being under fire. Easy? 

Does Scadrial have water based mines? 

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Rails can be blown up.

But in order to build railways in the first place the ground has to be flat, the railways being in tact or not doesn't matter on a geographic standpoint, what matters is that the ground is flat giving no barriers or defenses.

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I expect by Era 3, Scadrial will have or at least be in the process of developing a mechanical way to strip Identity. They have not one but two magic systems that allow for it

There is Fuerochemistry and what? Hemalurgic use of Durilium?

 

Also, harmonium in a case is an easy mine.

Edited December 30, 2022 by IlstrawberrySeed

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The mountain ranges are all low lying, as indicated by their icons, which I mentioned in the initial analysis.

So low, that they are COVERD by snow? You don't need Himalayas, any mountain ranges are hard to cross. 
Also I don't see on map icons indicating low mountains. The map only indicate there are mountians there, but gives us no scale nor height of any peeks. The books tells us mountains around Basin are covered with snow, we know how hard was for Set to climb to the temple, and how cold it was there. Books clearly give us the proof of how hard it would be for any army to advance through these mountains. What other proof you need to consider them as a serious natural obstacle?

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And while the Malwish do have mountains they can't survive there long due to their need of warmth. And most of their continent is accessable via the ocean.

They need heat, but they can use fire... And thankfully they don't need many man to secure the mountain ranges. Bringing ships for interplanetary invasion is hard, and if they attack from the ocean, they are still cut off from the majority of the continent by the same mountains and rivers. 

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Does Scadrial have water based mines? 

Put TNT in the barrels, barrels in or under water, wire it. There you go. 

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

But in order to build railways in the first place the ground has to be flat, the railways being in tact or not doesn't matter on a geographic standpoint, what matters is that the ground is flat giving no barriers or defenses.

Rivers! Rivers are the barrier. The closer they get to Elendel by "following the rails", the closer the rivers get. And if they don't cross any river, they would be stuck in a wedge hundreds of kilometers long, being forced to use more and more troops just to secure their flanks, with frontlines shortening, and with exposed flanks - big advantage for the defenders. Invaders can't advance on Elendel without crossing rivers and encircling the city.

 

It's your index, you decide. I just pointing out how you underestimated the importance of extensive river networks and mountain ranges shown on map. There is barely any flat plains on Scadrial, everything is divided by mountains. Elendel Basin is called basin for a reason. Look into history to see how mountains and rivers dictated wars.

[StanLemon]

31 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

There is Fuerochemistry and what? Hemalurgic use of Durilium?

 

Also, harmonium in a case is an easy mine.

Yup

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

Going from the Perpendicularity to the basin only requires them to cross a single mountain range, which has pathways to the basin. From there an invading force won't need to cross mountains again until they invade the Malwish.

One mountain range is plenty.

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

And there is one very important detail about those rivers that ruins their potential defensive use: They are all navigable. Rather than hindering an invading army they provide quick and easy transportation to the Basin's capital and largest population center.

On which ships? Are they constructing a ship yard? Or do you propose carrying ships through Shadesmar?

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

And even if they don't take the time to build boats rail lines run perpendicular to the rivers, allowing them to follow those.

While under artillery fire and air attack? Industrialized warfare, contrary to expectations, does not lower the defensive value of natural obstacles.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

Rivers! Rivers are the barrier. The closer they get to Elendel by "following the rails", the closer the rivers get. And if they don't cross any river, they would be stuck in a wedge hundreds of kilometers long, being forced to use more and more troops just to secure their flanks, with frontlines shortening, and with exposed flanks - big advantage for the defenders. Invaders can't advance on Elendel without crossing rivers and encircling the city.

That, however, works both ways. The Elendel Basin is fertile, but I seriously doubt a city of millions of people could feed itself if the river were blocked and railway lines cut.

Attempting urban warfare against Allomancers is just not a good idea. If possible at all, you'd starve them into surrender.

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

It's your index, you decide. I just pointing out how you underestimated the importance of extensive river networks and mountain ranges shown on map. There is barely any flat plains on Scadrial, everything is divided by mountains. Elendel Basin is called basin for a reason. Look into history to see how mountains and rivers dictated wars.

That raises a generic point. There is no section for logistical capacity.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

And while the Malwish do have mountains they can't survive there long due to their need of warmth. And most of their continent is accessable via the ocean.

Again with which ships? You got to remember that Shadesmar is land. the largest piece of equipment you can transport in one piece is limited.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

Does Scadrial have water based mines? 

Unless they are stupid, yes they have them. If not, they have artillery and they surely have oldfashioned chains. In the worst case they'll sink a few barges. Taking a river is a nightmare against an enemy with modern weaponery.

 

 

[therunner]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

So low, that they are COVERD by snow? You don't need Himalayas, any mountain ranges are hard to cross. 
Also I don't see on map icons indicating low mountains. The map only indicate there are mountians there, but gives us no scale nor height of any peeks. The books tells us mountains around Basin are covered with snow, we know how hard was for Set to climb to the temple, and how cold it was there. Books clearly give us the proof of how hard it would be for any army to advance through these mountains. What other proof you need to consider them as a serious natural obstacle?

I mean, depending on time of year even very flat mountain ranges (i.e. around ~1100 meters above sea level) are covered in snow for up to 5-6 months at a time.
Hell, some retain snow even until August!

Also I would say that what counts as natural obstacle depends on capabilities of the attacking force, if they all fly neither rivers nor mountains will be much of defense. Same if they easily burrow underground.

I think putting only non-regular features under natural defenses makes more sense (i.e. frequent earthquakes, Highstorms, Aether seas etc.), it should be something which makes the planet stand out or a combination of effects that is obvious hinderance, not something that is normal occurrence everywhere. Basically every planet has mountains, rivers etc. so influence of that on Firepower index would end up mostly cancelling out.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

While under artillery fire and air attack? Industrialized warfare, contrary to expectations, does not lower the defensive value of natural obstacles.

Limited artillery fire and air attack, if we are considering them at the end of TLM, as I think is the setup of this post.
So far we have not seen any actual air force from Malwish, only slow moving bombers, and artillery in basin has range less then 10 miles despite what Bilming propaganda wants others to believe (if I remember correctly)

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Does Scadrial have water based mines? 

Unless they are stupid, yes they have them. If not, they have artillery and they surely have oldfashioned chains. In the worst case they'll sink a few barges. Taking a river is a nightmare against an enemy with modern weaponery.

Since the post is Scadrial at TLM, and only for demonstrated capabilities, they don't yet have water mines, or even regular mines.

[+Oltux72]

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

I mean, depending on time of year even very flat mountain ranges (i.e. around ~1100 meters above sea level) are covered in snow for up to 5-6 months at a time.
Hell, some retain snow even until August!

That very much depends on Scadrial's orbital parameters and the luminosity of its sun. We just don't know.

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also I would say that what counts as natural obstacle depends on capabilities of the attacking force, if they all fly neither rivers nor mountains will be much of defense. Same if they easily burrow underground.

No. It also depends on the defending force. For example mountains around your perpendicularity in a basin are much easier to fortify and allow you to take it under artillery fire.

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think putting only non-regular features under natural defenses makes more sense (i.e. frequent earthquakes, Highstorms, Aether seas etc.), it should be something which makes the planet stand out or a combination of effects that is obvious hinderance, not something that is normal occurrence everywhere. Basically every planet has mountains, rivers etc. so influence of that on Firepower index would end up mostly cancelling out.

1. This is the Cosmere. Not every planet has those features. Take Taldaine. Almost everything is a desert on Dayside. Or Roshar. Rivers are generally impermanent.
2. Your invasion or logistic depend on the location of your perpendicularity. Take Final Empire Scadrial. They had barge traffic via their canal network to both their perpendicularities. Modern day Scadrial lacks those advantages. Sel has a perpendicularity right next to its center of Invested manifacturing. Roshar has an oathgate in a dream location in Thaylenah. Nalthis is at a severe disadvantage.

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Limited artillery fire and air attack, if we are considering them at the end of TLM, as I think is the setup of this post.
So far we have not seen any actual air force from Malwish, only slow moving bombers, and artillery in basin has range less then 10 miles despite what Bilming propaganda wants others to believe (if I remember correctly)

Ample range. And they have Coinshot paratroopers.

55 minutes ago, therunner said:

Since the post is Scadrial at TLM, and only for demonstrated capabilities, they don't yet have water mines, or even regular mines.

1. They drill subways with explosives.
2. Fill a ship with explosives and anchor it in the river.

There are your mines.

[therunner]

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That very much depends on Scadrial's orbital parameters and the luminosity of its sun. We just don't know.

Yes, but that goes both ways, we cannot say those mountains are i.e. Himalayas or even just Alps and so present good natural defense, just because they are covered in snow.

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. It also depends on the defending force. For example mountains around your perpendicularity in a basin are much easier to fortify and allow you to take it under artillery fire.

True, except the perpendicularity is somewhere in those mountains as well, so how defendable it is would depend on where in mountains is it, and how easily you can transport heavy machinery there.

And this is also assuming that perpendicularity is the only way to attack, which is not the case (Roshar has Surge of Transportation, Sel with prep-time can do anything, forces of Autonomy can create artificial perpendicularity under some constraints etc.)

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

1. This is the Cosmere. Not every planet has those features. Take Taldaine. Almost everything is a desert on Dayside. Or Roshar. Rivers are generally impermanent.
2. Your invasion or logistic depend on the location of your perpendicularity. Take Final Empire Scadrial. They had barge traffic via their canal network to both their perpendicularities. Modern day Scadrial lacks those advantages. Sel has a perpendicularity right next to its center of Invested manifacturing. Roshar has an oathgate in a dream location in Thaylenah. Nalthis is at a severe disadvantage.

Both Taldain and Roshar are extreme cases (one is tidally locked, the other was crafted by Adonalsium for some purpose). Pretty much every other planet we have seen is quite similar to Scadrial in broad features like this (Sel, Nalthis, Ashyn based on how Shinovar looks, Threnody, First of the Sun)

True on logistics, but logistics is not the same as natural defenses.
I agree that logisticics section could make sense, however I fear it would be far too speculative (as books typically don't concern themselves with such manners). I.e. Scadrial has ability to built traintracks, but how fast can they do it? And how fast could they scale up? Their technology is typically late 19th century (some more advnaced some less) with Set developed technologies being about 20-40 years ahead (radio, rockets, movies etc.), so it is difficult to estimate things like that.

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Ample range. And they have Coinshot paratroopers.

Depends on how accurate it is, but the range is generally larger then most others, so against slow moving or non-moving targets it would be sufficient.

They have coinshots, not coinshots paratroopers. Elendel Basin has army of 10 000 and there is no mention of them having special Misting regimen, from what is mentioned most Coinshots work as couriers.
Additionally Mistings are still relatively rare (per WoBs 1 in few hundred, per BoM 1 in 1000) so thanks to demographics that is heavily limited resource (~1000-2000 of Coinshots at best across all ages).

19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1. They drill subways with explosives.
2. Fill a ship with explosives and anchor it in the river.

There are your mines.

Mine explodes on its own, this requires manual operation.

Edited December 31, 2022 by therunner

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That raises a generic point. There is no section for logistical capacity.

I fully agree, logistic is what wins wars.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

I mean, depending on time of year even very flat mountain ranges (i.e. around ~1100 meters above sea level) are covered in snow for up to 5-6 months at a time.
Hell, some retain snow even until August!

Also I would say that what counts as natural obstacle depends on capabilities of the attacking force, if they all fly neither rivers nor mountains will be much of defense. Same if they easily burrow underground.

I think putting only non-regular features under natural defenses makes more sense (i.e. frequent earthquakes, Highstorms, Aether seas etc.), it should be something which makes the planet stand out or a combination of effects that is obvious hinderance, not something that is normal occurrence everywhere. Basically every planet has mountains, rivers etc. so influence of that on Firepower index would end up mostly cancelling out.

So you have a mountain range coverd by snow for half a year and you don't consider it a serious obstacle during any offence? There is a reason why even today, during winter frontlines stagnate.
Elendel Basin lays very close to equator. And we know from BoM how hard it was for Set to climb to the temple. It's in the books. Those mountain ranges are serious obstacle. And Elendel is surrounded by them - this is unique, only Shinovar is in similar position.

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Since the post is Scadrial at TLM, and only for demonstrated capabilities, they don't yet have water mines, or even regular mines.

There is multiple way to block rivers, sink ships and no one can use them, use chains like it had been done since ancient times. Or do nothing - as long as defenders are position on the one side of the river, invaders can't use that river for transportation. And barrels with tnt would be a "water mines", easy to make. Arguing about semantics of what is mine and what isn't is pointless, when the whole point is that rivers can't be use by invaders if they can't control both sides of the river. 

 

 

@Frustration considers Roshar natural defences as

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Additionally there are several mountain ranges, and difficult terrain that would make moving large forces not used to the terrain difficult.

Yet he considers Scadrial's as

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Scadrial has few natural defenses, other than their Cognitive realm being largely composed of mists that no non-invested object can float on. The Malwish have some low mountains, lakes, and rivers but little else, and Elendel is largely exposed.

Elendel isliterally surrounded by mountains. How it is exposed when it has the best natural defences possible?

Moreover Roshar barely has any rivers on, most are just temporary. Scadrial has a lot of them, everywhere. And here is this map comparision I've made. Red indicates mountains, blue rivers, and green is big mostly flat and open plains (like Great European Plain spanning from France to Ural mountains).

Spoiler

Scadrial is highly mountainous continent with only one big plain located in the old Final Empire (now very sparsely populated), and two much smaller ones on the other side of the continent, in Malwish (tbf they are so small that I doubt I should even consider them, but they are all there is on Scadrial so I have to). All plains are separated by several mountain ranges and huge rivers and lakes, making movement from one to another very difficult.

Mainwhile Roshar is mostly dominated by vast and great plains. From Azir, to Jah Keved and Alethkar, 3 seperate big plains, seperated from each other by only one mountain range each, with a wide gap between mountains. First one is in Azir, covering the area of whole empire. Second one is on the north, starting from Pure Lake, going through northern Jah Keved and Alethkar. Third one is spanning across southern Alethkar and Frost Lands. All three plains are highly populated areas.
There is barely any rivers are present on Roshar, biggest one is in southern Alethkar, few smaller one are scattered in northern Alethkar and Azir (not shown on map). You can basically draw a straight line along both northern and southern coasts of Roshar and it will go from Alethkar to Azir (northern line will end even in Irim southern in Tukar) without any mountains in the way. And this is precisely what both Odium forces and Coalition are doing, they control both coasts, which gives them access to half of the continent each.

 

That's why I can't understand why Rosharian mountains are considered "difficult terrain", while you can easily walk around them, and Scadrial's mountains are not looked upon in the same way, where you can't walk around them, you have to cross all these mountian ranges and rivers to get from one population center to another. I consider Scadrial's terrain more difficult than Roshar's (only as rivers and mountains, not Highstorms etc).

[therunner]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Elendel isliterally surrounded by mountains. How it is exposed when it has the best natural defences possible?

Well, the nearest mountains are hundreds of kilometers from Elendel? If I remember right, so they don't really help Elendel much.
 

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So you have a mountain range coverd by snow for half a year and you don't consider it a serious obstacle during any offence? There is a reason why even today, during winter frontlines stagnate.
Elendel Basin lays very close to equator. And we know from BoM how hard it was for Set to climb to the temple. It's in the books. Those mountain ranges are serious obstacle.
And Elendel is surrounded by them - this is unique, only Shinovar is in similar position.

Those mountain ranges were not really an obstacle during any war I am aware of since late 11th century, so yeah I don't consider them to be an obstacle.

And Elendel while close to equator also has temperate climate (seemingly) not tropical, so being close the equator does not mean much on its own.

Mountains around Shinovar are far more extensive, even your map is showing that. Mountains around Elendel Basin are regularly passed through, as Roughs are beyond them, whereas Shinovar is typically access only by sea, again demonstrating the difference.

 

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That's why I can't understand why Rosharian mountains are considered "difficult terrain", while you can easily walk around them, and Scadrial's mountains are not looked upon in the same way, where you can't walk around them, you have to cross all these mountian ranges and rivers to get from one population center to another. I consider Scadrial's terrain more difficult than Roshar's (only as rivers and mountains, not Highstorms etc).

I think the reasoning (though I might be wrong, as I was not forming the posts) is that Roshar has much more spread out (and larger) population, so any greater attack would require passing through multiple mountain ranges, some of which are demonstrably very high (Urithiru and its mountain range).

Edit: And 'easily walk around' them for Rosharan mountain ranges typically means de-tour of hundreds to thousands (depending on the range) of miles. That is not easy, that is weeks of travel.

By contrast however Northern Scadrial has basically entire civilization situated in Elendel Basin (minus Roughs, which are sparsely populated), so at best you have to pass through a single mountain range, or even not that, depending on where you would start.
For Malwish we don't have information on their demographics and location of cities etc. so it is difficult to say how much of an issue would those mountains represent.

Though for trying to go after entire planet those ranges should be included and commented on I think.

Edited December 31, 2022 by therunner

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Well, the nearest mountains are hundreds of kilometers from Elendel? If I remember right, so they don't really help Elendel much.

Which surrounds the entire Basin, the biggest population center on Scadrial, and has railroads up to very base of those mountains? Not helping?

3 minutes ago, therunner said:

Those mountain ranges were not really an obstacle during any war I am aware of since late 11th century, so yeah I don't consider them to be an obstacle.

Because mountainous and hilly terrain in Spain did not make it difficult for Napoleon to control iberian peninsula? And the WW1 in northern Italy, where fighting stagnated in mountainous terrain, and avalanches killed tens of thousands of soldiers? WW2, again Italian campain, where Winter Line located among mountains and hills of southern Italy, successfully hold Allied advanced on Rome for entire year, with 4 battles of Monte Cassino happening? And maybe very recent war in Afghanistan where USA failed to secure mountainous country, like USSR decades before? What are you even talking about?

16 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mountains around Shinovar are far more extensive, even your map is showing that. Mountains around Elendel Basin are regularly passed through, as Roughs are beyond them, whereas Shinovar is typically access only by sea.

There are roads and railways passing through mountains around Elendel, but it doesn't mean it would be easy to pass for an invading army. It would be still hard to pass, as mountains can be easily defended even when following roads. Causing avalanches, crossfire, and narrow roads and paths would make any numerically superior invading army lost their numerical advantage.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think the reasoning (though I might be wrong, as I was not forming the posts) is that Roshar has much more spread out (and larger) population, so any greater attack would require passing through multiple mountain ranges, some of which are demonstrably very high (Urithiru and its mountain range).

This is not true. There are multiple gaps in mountain ranges that allows any army to walk around mountains to get to the other side. Gaps in Jah Keved and Alethkar, gap north of Azir in Yulay, south of the Pure Lake. Gap west of Jah Keved's capital, going through Triax and Marat to Azir Empire. Only Urithiru and Shinovar requires assaulting directly through the mountains, but the rest ot the continent can be conquered by walking around the mountain ranges.

26 minutes ago, therunner said:

By contrast however Northern Scadrial has basically entire civilization situated in Elendel Basin (minus Roughs, which are sparsely populated), so at best you have to pass through a single mountain range, or even not that, depending on where you would start.

By contrast however Northern Scadrial has basically entire civilization situated in Elendel Basin (minus Roughs, which are sparsely populated), so at best you have to pass through a single mountain range, or even not that, depending on where you would start.
For Malwish we don't have information on their demographics and location of cities etc. so it is difficult to say how much of an issue would those mountains represent.
Though for trying to go after entire planet those ranges should be included and commented on I think.

That's the point, you have to pass through these mountains to get to Elendel Basin. You have to pass through even more mountain ranges and rivers to conquer to Malwish, who still have a considerable population number. Malwish Consortium is located on highly mountainous terrain, as seen on map. This is extremely advantageous for defenders, and it would massively slowed down at worst any invading army. There is no way around those mountains, at best they could follow them to the narrow gaps in between, but they would still have to cross big rivers that flows among mountain ranges, and it would be a huge zig-zagy detour of thousands of kilometers long. Logistical nightmare. And they most likely won't bring boats through CR to go by the ocean, which would still require crossing mountain ranges.

On Roshar, you follow straight line, and conquer half of the continent, without crossing single mountain range.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, but that goes both ways, we cannot say those mountains are i.e. Himalayas or even just Alps and so present good natural defense, just because they are covered in snow.

I am sorry, but we can say exactly that. You are not going to cross mountains covered in snow without roads with any conventional land vehicle.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

And this is also assuming that perpendicularity is the only way to attack, which is not the case (Roshar has Surge of Transportation, Sel with prep-time can do anything, forces of Autonomy can create artificial perpendicularity under some constraints etc.)

Well, no. It assumes that the perpendicularity significantly matters.

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

True on logistics, but logistics is not the same as natural defenses.

True, hence it needs its own section. Yet the topics are related. Attacks and defenses involve moving people and things.

A look into history is instructive there. For example the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire. Both sides went along the Danube every time. That was obvious to the other side. Were they stupid? No. It took a major navigable river to supply armies of that size. Does that have any connection with defenses? Of course. Just by looking at a map anybody with a bit of history or military training can tell you that the site of Belgrade will be a major fortress. And it is.

You can look at Scadrial and it becomes obvious where the major strong points for defenders of the Elendel Basin would be. And they would be there precisely because the mountains force a very small number of approaches onto an invader.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I agree that logisticics section could make sense, however I fear it would be far too speculative (as books typically don't concern themselves with such manners). I.e.

I am sorry, but they do. We know how long a shipment of goods took in the Final Empire. We have an idea how quickly Elend's armies moved. We know how Dalinar's armies deal with ... human waste, let's call it that. We know how long a trip from Elendel to New Serran takes. We can even take an educated rough guess at the loads of a Scadrian railway car.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Mine explodes on its own, this requires manual operation.

The grandfather of command detonated mines

Automatic detonation is a feature to save man power. If you have a few observable lines of approach its disadvantages may outweigh its benefits. Other than that the Scadrians of course have automatic detonation. What do you think the bomb Wax and Wayne found in Alloy of Law was?

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Well, the nearest mountains are hundreds of kilometers from Elendel? If I remember right, so they don't really help Elendel much.

On the contrary. The Basin is pointless to besiege by that feature.

 

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

 

  Hide contents

Scadrial is highly mountainous continent with only one big plain located in the old Final Empire (now very sparsely populated), and two much smaller ones on the other side of the continent, in Malwish (tbf they are so small that I doubt I should even consider them, but they are all there is on Scadrial so I have to). All plains are separated by several mountain ranges and huge rivers and lakes, making movement from one to another very difficult.

Mainwhile Roshar is mostly dominated by vast and great plains. From Azir, to Jah Keved and Alethkar, 3 seperate big plains, seperated from each other by only one mountain range each, with a wide gap between mountains. First one is in Azir, covering the area of whole empire. Second one is on the north, starting from Pure Lake, going through northern Jah Keved and Alethkar. Third one is spanning across southern Alethkar and Frost Lands. All three plains are highly populated areas.
There is barely any rivers are present on Roshar, biggest one is in southern Alethkar, few smaller one are scattered in northern Alethkar and Azir (not shown on map). You can basically draw a straight line along both northern and southern coasts of Roshar and it will go from Alethkar to Azir (northern line will end even in Irim southern in Tukar) without any mountains in the way. And this is precisely what both Odium forces and Coalition are doing, they control both coasts, which gives them access to half of the continent each.

 

That's why I can't understand why Rosharian mountains are considered "difficult terrain", while you can easily walk around them, and Scadrial's mountains are not looked upon in the same way, where you can't walk around them, you have to cross all these mountian ranges and rivers to get from one population center to another. I consider Scadrial's terrain more difficult than Roshar's (only as rivers and mountains, not Highstorms etc).

Mainly because if you look at how the map depicts the icons the mountains of mist and the Horneater peaks are far higher than say the unclaimed hills, which appears about the same as the Scadrian mountain ranges.

And general Roshar is not plains, it's rocky crags which is easier for humans to move on than horses OB 736.

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am sorry, but we can say exactly that. You are not going to cross mountains covered in snow without roads with any conventional land vehicle.

The Set did it. They went from their warehouse to the temple of the Sovereign in what two days? They almost beat Wax there and he could fly.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Frustration

[alder24]

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Mainly because if you look at how the map depicts the icons the mountains of mist and the Horneater peaks are far higher than say the unclaimed hills, which appears about the same as the Scadrian mountain ranges.

What? No, it's not looking the same. Those 2 maps are different, made in different time periods, with different indicators for mountiains. On Roshar, mountains are marked with a triangles, on Scadrial, with a contour lines. You can't compare them directly, you can only tell there are mountain in marked places. No height indicators.

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And general Roshar is not plains, it's rocky crags which is easier for humans to move on than horses OB 736.

It's a big, flat, open space with no mountains are rivers. That's what I've meant. No natural obstacles in the way, no mountains, barely any river.

Army traveling on soil with no road, will quickly turn the ground into mud, which would massively slow them down - ask Germans about it, they've learnt it in 1941. Even Napoleon was advancing by roads. Scadrial is deprived of transportation infrastructure outside of Basin. 

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Set did it. They went from their warehouse to the temple of the Sovereign in what two days? They almost beat Wax there and he could fly.

With small group of people. Not an army! How is 50 people (or whatever it was) comparable to tens of thousands with logistic and supply chains following them? And guess what, it only takes few hundreds soldiers to stop the army of tens of thousands in those mountains. It's like natural castle.

[+Oltux72]

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Mainly because if you look at how the map depicts the icons the mountains of mist and the Horneater peaks are far higher than say the unclaimed hills, which appears about the same as the Scadrian mountain ranges.

It does not really matter all that much. Any mountain is a mountain for these considerations. On a densely populated, quite developed world of 8 billion people we tend to forget that in its natural state only a small fraction of the planetary surface is accessible with vehicles. Especially in developed countries we have paved roads everywhere. In its natural state Europe and most of North America would be impassable.

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And general Roshar is not plains, it's rocky crags which is easier for humans to move on than horses OB 736.

Yet a certain slaver could pass the Frostlands with multiple carts without roads. Alethi armies could travel the Shattered Plains without roads. In most of the Earth and other planets that would just have been impossible.

49 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Set did it. They went from their warehouse to the temple of the Sovereign in what two days? They almost beat Wax there and he could fly.

The last stretch they walked. They had months to prepare and they took a small party and had medaillions.

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Army traveling on soil with no road, will quickly turn the ground into mud, which would massively slow them down - ask Germans about it, they've learnt it in 1941. Even Napoleon was advancing by roads. Scadrial is deprived of transportation infrastructure outside of Basin. 

Inside the Basin, too. Look at a railway map of eastern North America or western Europe in 1900. Scadrial is underdeveloped.

 

[Proletariat]

The terrain in Scadrial is going to be a massive pain in the ass for an invading force from Roshar at this time. The restriction on spren not only means no fabrials or radiants as per WOB, but maybe even rules out the chulls that many Rosharans rely upon for transport and labour. They are not going to move so swiftly that they'll be unnoticed and have the opportunity to build boats to navigate the waterways when the local population has the option of sending notice about an invading force by car, bird, horse, flying allomancer, or maybe even a ship or seon.

At this stage of development Nalthis would be a higher threat to Scadrial as an invading force as they have an army that doesn't need to eat or sleep, and can be replaced with fallen enemy forces. They can essentially run an invasion with next to no supply lines, and if they do any conscription of breath from the population they could turn any Scadrian they kill on the way into a soldier while destroying Scadrial's crop supplies. No other world's invading army could be so cavalier about destroying local food supply. As the two super powers innovate that will change quite rapidly but the portability of Nalthis' forces at this current stage makes them punch above their weight.

[Frustration]

I have, after careful consideration, and thoughts from the people arguing for higher points on defense, decided to place the mountains and rivers under further review. I will look further into this and share my findings shortly.

[Frustration]

Alright, this is a double post, but it's my thread.

My findings: Harmony's perpendicularity is not in the mountains near the southern roughs, such as the Seran range as I had initially thought, but is rather in mountains further south than the roughs, placing them near Lost Doriath. This changes just about everything, as it is hundreds of miles from the basin, and might make an amphibious invasion easier than a land invasion. Now it does render the Seran Range mostly useless as the gap is nearly 25 miles wide and an invading force wouldn't lose much time making for it, but it does place them starting at a much higher altitude. Additionally the Ghostbloods say that the perpendicularity is closely watched, though I'm not sure how much we can trust that as the Set got their jars of identity free investiture from somewhere off world, but it is something to keep in mind.

Now the rivers on closer inspection will not prove to be much of a barrier as an invading force has no reason to cross them, Elendel is the economic, political, and industrial capital of the basin, while also holding half the population, any deviation from that goal would be foolish.

Needless to say, I'm going to have to rework the entire defensive section.

@alder24 I've edited the original post, do you have anything else to add?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Frustration

[alder24]

On 2.01.2023 at 8:40 PM, Frustration said:

@alder24 I've edited the original post, do you have anything else to add?

Before I start, I have to say that I'm very content with the changes you made and description seams fair and reasonable. I don't want to sound nitpicking, as it feels uncomfortable after your changes, buuuut 

Quote

Now the rivers will not prove to be much of a barrier as an invading force has no reason to cross them, Elendel is the economic, political, and industrial capital of the basin, while also holding half the population, any deviation from that goal would be foolish.

Within the Basin there is like 7 rivers/canals, all converging towards the city of Elendel. So the distance between 2 rivers is wider close to the mountains, but closer to the city, this distance is very narrow (triangular shape). That means any inviding force that approaches Elendel, and don't want to cross the rivers, will have to gradually shorten their frontlines and assult the city with basically several kilometers wide frontline - which is very short for a city diameter of like 12-ish km and would be very ineffective. Standard tactic for besieging any city is to encircle it, and assult it from all directions, which for Elendel means crossing all those 7 rivers/canals.

However those rivers/canals are not the biggest on Scadrial. Main river, Irongate, is the widest, and flows from outside of the Basin, and would be a serious obstacle, but rest are relativelly small ones - still they would give some defensive positions for defenders, but it wouldn't be that challenging to cross. So while I agree rivers mostly don't provide serious  barrier, but there is a reason to cross all 7 rivers/canals within the Basin, as it's necessary to besiege Elendel.

 

Once again, description looks very reasonable and covers fairly all major geographic obstacles on Scadrial towards northern and southern direction of attack - which was my main concern. I don't know precisely how you score it , but I didn't expect it to be rated so high. Thank you for fair review and work done on this