Everyone Explains Their Powers

[+Child of Hodor]

I have minor concern about the increasing crossover nature of the Cosmere books. I'm overall excited for more people we know to show up in different series, but one thing with Moonlight gave me pause. Marasi asks Moonlight to tell her what her capabilities are and Moonlight gives a list of the stamps she has, what they can do and whether they are reusable etc.  On it's own it is OK, but it was a bit tedious and I had a vision of like Stormlight 7 where there's someone from every other series present using magic and they all stand in a circle and explain what they can do. 

I would prefer it be like when Vasher and Kaladin fought in RoW where Vahser is using breath to make Kaladin see things in the laundry. It's never explained he just does it and then strangles Kaladin with a scarf. Brandon is great at explaining the magic while the POV person is using it, but when a non-POV person is doing it it can get clunky. 

I feel that if a magic is explained in another published book and the worldhopper is not the POV then it shouldn't be explained. The main character sees a person doing magic things, but they don't know how it's happening and either I've read the other series and recognize what's happening or I don't. If we're gonna have like 8 magic systems actively used on the page in a book the listing of powers would get old fast. 

[kenod]

45 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I have minor concern about the increasing crossover nature of the Cosmere books. I'm overall excited for more people we know to show up in different series, but one thing with Moonlight gave me pause. Marasi asks Moonlight to tell her what her capabilities are and Moonlight gives a list of the stamps she has, what they can do and whether they are reusable etc.  On it's own it is OK, but it was a bit tedious and I had a vision of like Stormlight 7 where there's someone from every other series present using magic and they all stand in a circle and explain what they can do. 

I would prefer it be like when Vasher and Kaladin fought in RoW where Vahser is using breath to make Kaladin see things in the laundry. It's never explained he just does it and then strangles Kaladin with a scarf. Brandon is great at explaining the magic while the POV person is using it, but when a non-POV person is doing it it can get clunky. 

I feel that if a magic is explained in another published book and the worldhopper is not the POV then it shouldn't be explained. The main character sees a person doing magic things, but they don't know how it's happening and either I've read the other series and recognize what's happening or I don't. If we're gonna have like 8 magic systems actively used on the page in a book the listing of powers would get old fast. 

To be fair, in this case it's important because these stamps are new to us as well, and might not get introduced in a book, so I suspect that's why we're getting the explanation now.

I don't think we'll be getting the general explanation in the future, but it's important to keep in mind that at this point the books kind of stop pretending they're completely different things, but with small cross-overs, so talking about stuff from other series does become much more important, but at the same time, assumptions will also be that we'll have read those books.

[Govir]

Counterpoint: Who were the other Ghostblood members that helped Steris at the docks? They could all fly, so I was thinking Radiants. But no explanation of their powers were given, just "We can help with that. ::flys off into the ocean::"

[Captain Coffee]

I think both RoW and TLM dealt with this correctly, and in the same way. Outside magic is only explained if the person who knows the magic explains it. In RoW it seems very much like Vasher to not explain himself to Kaladin. Why would he. Messing with Kaladin is one of the few joys in his life. In TLM Kelsier specifically told his people to help Marasi, and, like in any good heist novel or superhero story, she needed to know her team's capabilities, so they told her. It seems to me that he is explaining the magic when it is in character for people to explain it and leaving it unexplained when the characters would leave it unexplained.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Govir said:

Counterpoint: Who were the other Ghostblood members that helped Steris at the docks? They could all fly, so I was thinking Radiants. But no explanation of their powers were given, just "We can help with that. ::flys off into the ocean::"

 Nope not radiance no glow. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Nope not radiance no glow. 

There are ways to suppress the glow from Stormlight. But regardless Radiance isn't the only way to fly.

[bmcclure7]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There are ways to suppress the glow from Stormlight. But regardless Radiance isn't the only way to fly.

 When?  I don't  Ever recall anyone doing that in stormlight?

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 When?  I don't  Ever recall anyone doing that in stormlight?

OB 222. It's possible that it is a Lightweaver power, but there should be other ways to replicate it.

[Kasimir he/him]

The title of this thread just gave me massive Bleach and JoJo vibes and made me consider what would happen if characters in TLM behaved that way  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 When?  I don't  Ever recall anyone doing that in stormlight?

The Fused. Meridas Amaram.

[Isilel]

21 hours ago, Govir said:

They could all fly, so I was thinking Radiants. But no explanation of their powers were given, just "We can help with that. ::flys off into the ocean::"

It is a popular theory on reddit, but it doesn't really make much sense, IMHO. People became really hung up on Kelsier's statement that it is impossible to steelpush over an open ocean, but Elendel bay isnt that - it is much more shallow and has other boats and structures to serve as coinshot anchors. Not to mention that Steris didn't think that there was anything strange with their actions, nor did she notice their unusual height. And yes, native Scadrians can worry about legalities too! Particularly when they are members of a secret organization, who are forced to act openly in ways that might damage their cover.

Furthermore, it is completely illogical for Ghostbloods on Scadrial to consist entirely of offworlders. It already strained suspension of disbelief that the Bilming office was staffed exclusively by them.

Re: Kaladin and Vasher in RoW, I found Kaladin not questioning the latter's odd powers and weird lecture on investiture to be completely unbelievable. Ditto that it never occurred to him later during the occupation  to go to Zahel for help. This is absolutely not how powers from other worlds should be introduced! 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Isilel

[Govir]

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

People became really hung on Kelsier's statement that it is impossible to steelpush over an open ocean, but Elendel bay isnt that - it is much more shallow and has other boats and structures to serve as coinshot anchors. Not to mention that Steris didn't think that there was anything strange with their actions, nor did she notice their unusual height

Oh yeah, I immediately latched onto "flew into the air" (which I can't easily double check that was the phrase, because audiobook), and to me steelpushing isn't flying (it's falling, with style). But I also remember I think Moonlight said "You have someone who can fly." when talking to Marasi. So yeah, it could just be a bunch of mistings, but I was definitely primed for different sources due to them being Ghostbloods.

[ftl]

23 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I feel that if a magic is explained in another published book and the worldhopper is not the POV then it shouldn't be explained. The main character sees a person doing magic things, but they don't know how it's happening and either I've read the other series and recognize what's happening or I don't. If we're gonna have like 8 magic systems actively used on the page in a book the listing of powers would get old fast. 

I think that should - and does - depend on the context. It's up to the characters whether they want to explain or not.

Vasher clearly did not. He doesn't care to introduce Kaladin to awakening, he just wants to test whether Kaladin still has the heart of a fighter. So he just... does things. No explanation.

Moonlight, on the other hand, was giving Marasi operational control over a mission. Marasi wanted to know the magical assets she had to work with, so moonlight explained them. She did not explain everything about how they worked, just what was relevant to the mission.

And I expect that it to be the same in the future. Sometimes you will get character bringing in a foreign magic system and explaining what it is they can and can't do. Sometimes you'll get a character just... doing things. It'll depend on what that character's relationship is to the PoV character and their goals.

It also works from a writer perspective. Sanderson's written out how he thinks of hard magic systems in a few essays on his website. https://www.brandonsanderson.com/sandersons-first-law/.  He believes it is important for a reader to understand the magic system when this magic system is going to be used to resolve problems by/for the main characters. So yes, in TLM, if Marasi's going to have Moonlight use soulstamps to get her out of trouble, then the reader needs to understand what those are. On the other hand, if the magic is used to get a main character into trouble, or if it's tangential to the plot, it's fine to leave it unexplained.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, Govir said:

Oh yeah, I immediately latched onto "flew into the air" (which I can't easily double check that was the phrase, because audiobook), and to me steelpushing isn't flying (it's falling, with style).

Surgebinders twist gravity. They are literally falling. A Steelpusher will have to move in a series of ballistic arcs. A Surgebinder need not do that. But they can. Just their speed profile will look differenrly. And obviously they don't need coins. But equally obviously they can drop one for show.

[Darth_Hel]

23 hours ago, Govir said:

Counterpoint: Who were the other Ghostblood members that helped Steris at the docks? They could all fly, so I was thinking Radiants. But no explanation of their powers were given, just "We can help with that. ::flys off into the ocean::"

There was a possible hint. One of the Ghostbloods sent has only the question of whether its legal to sink private ships. It would be weird in an emergency if a covert group like the Ghostbloods would care about the legality here unless that is tied up with whether they could do it. Might be at least one Skybreaker in the group.

This doesn't mean there weren't other Ghostbloods in the group that were also Scadrians. But, Scadrian Ghostbloods might have already been swept up in helping by being already known as allomancers. Just because there were in a secret group doesn't mean they had to have publicly hid their powers. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Darth_Hel

[Uncreation]

On 11/21/2022 at 1:47 PM, Child of Hodor said:

I have minor concern about the increasing crossover nature of the Cosmere books. I'm overall excited for more people we know to show up in different series, but one thing with Moonlight gave me pause. Marasi asks Moonlight to tell her what her capabilities are and Moonlight gives a list of the stamps she has, what they can do and whether they are reusable etc.  On it's own it is OK, but it was a bit tedious and I had a vision of like Stormlight 7 where there's someone from every other series present using magic and they all stand in a circle and explain what they can do. 

I would prefer it be like when Vasher and Kaladin fought in RoW where Vahser is using breath to make Kaladin see things in the laundry. It's never explained he just does it and then strangles Kaladin with a scarf. Brandon is great at explaining the magic while the POV person is using it, but when a non-POV person is doing it it can get clunky. 

I feel that if a magic is explained in another published book and the worldhopper is not the POV then it shouldn't be explained. The main character sees a person doing magic things, but they don't know how it's happening and either I've read the other series and recognize what's happening or I don't. If we're gonna have like 8 magic systems actively used on the page in a book the listing of powers would get old fast. 

Yes. Big picture perspective there are too many magic systems and too much complexity for the average reader to digest and understand. It is definitely getting clunky. It takes more time to write but discovering powers Kaladin did in a more incremental manner is more exciting for the reader. Power creep is a problem in all fantasy books. We are approaching that here. To the point there are so many magic systems its basically to the point there are no rules and you can do whatever the story needs you to do.