Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[Frustration he/him]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

1. It literally says connection did it.  What do you mean to say connection can't do it.

What did it do?

If he Connected to the SR then he didn't reach the Beyond.

If he did reach the Beyond, then the light that gave him the Connection was the God Beyond, and thus was only possible via divine intervention, and is thus something Connection could not do on it's own.

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  No gravity did not create the world creation implies direction, action, Choice, Gravity is an effect it doesn't have these things.

...

Planets form, because gravity pulls things in and forms them into a sphere.

That is not in dispute, that is a fact.

So yes, Gravity creates planets.

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  You are purposely using language incorrectly in order to confuse drawing attention away from the weakness of your argument.

No, you just take metaphor and symbolism for fact.

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Shards do want things, (RoW)

Gravity wants to pull things down.

Shards are just suppernatural gravity.

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

They take actions on their own (RoW).   They make choices on their own (RoW)

No they don't

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

If you compare a shard to gravity then you must compare yourself to gravity. 

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[bmcclure7]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

....

How does that make any sense?

 What about it exactly do you not understand. Atheist do not believe that the sun is alive, How is that hard to understand?

 

2 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I don’t agree. Some civilizations believed that their leaders were gods. Many atheist historians believe that those leaders existed, but deny their divinity. The definition of an atheist is not “someone who does not believe in anything supernatural” it is someone who does not believe in gods.

 Not quite, typically  Civilizations believed that their leaders were manifestations of their gods in the flesh. 

 For example the ancient Egyptians believed Pharaoh to be a manifestation of Horace in the flesh. 

Simerly We christians believe that Jesus is the manifestation of Yhwh  In the Flesh

 Atheist, Do not believe in the existence of Yhwh or Horace.  So they do not believe that the pharaoh or Jesus were  Manifestations of anything. 

While they may acknowledge that Jesus and the pharaohs existed. That's not the same thing as believing that Yhwh or Horace exist.

 This is not really an option On scabrel. Maybe for kelsier but not for harmony. 

 

 

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not quite, typically  Civilizations believed that their leaders were manifestations of their gods in the flesh. 

 For example the ancient Egyptians believed Pharaoh to be a manifestation of Horace in the flesh. 

Simerly We christians believe that Jesus is the manifestation of Yhwh  In the Flesh

 Atheist, Do not believe in the existence of Yhwh or Horace.  So they do not believe that the pharaoh or Jesus were  Manifestations of anything. 

While they may acknowledge that Jesus and the pharaohs existed. That's not the same thing as believing that Yhwh or Horace exist.

 This is not really an option On scabrel. Maybe for kelsier but not for harmony. 

Persians, Chinese, Japanese, Mayan, Incan, certain Egyptian and Indian dynasties, have all believed their rulers to be actual gods.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Not quite, typically  Civilizations believed that their leaders were manifestations of their gods in the flesh. 

 For example the ancient Egyptians believed Pharaoh to be a manifestation of Horace in the flesh. 

Simerly We christians believe that Jesus is the manifestation of Yhwh  In the Flesh

 Atheist, Do not believe in the existence of Yhwh or Horace.  So they do not believe that the pharaoh or Jesus were  Manifestations of anything. 

While they may acknowledge that Jesus and the pharaohs existed. That's not the same thing as believing that Yhwh or Horace exist.

 This is not really an option On scabrel. Maybe for kelsier but not for harmony.

Let me put it like this: belief that Harmony exists does not mean one believes in gods, because Harmony is not a god. He has no authority or understanding over the afterlife, and that alone precludes him from godhood in my mind.

Edited February 23, 2023 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What did it do?

If he Connected to the SR then he didn't reach the Beyond.

If he did reach the Beyond, then the light that gave him the Connection was the God Beyond, and thus was only possible via divine intervention, and is thus something Connection could not do on it's own.

...

Planets form, because gravity pulls things in and forms them into a sphere.

That is not in dispute, that is a fact.

So yes, Gravity creates planets.

No, you just take metaphor and symbolism for fact.

Gravity wants to pull things down.

Shards are just suppernatural gravity.

No they don't

That makes no sense whatsoever.

1.There is no God Beyond. What dose that even mean. The phrase appears no where in the cosmere.  You are literally make things up to support your argument 

2.  If your "God Beyond " (which doesn't exist in books outside of your head) is using connection then he is using investiture. So that mean investiture can reach into the beyond. 

 

3.  Reread what I said about creation,  You seem to have completely missed my point. 

 

4.  Gravity doesn't want anything it's an effect.  Please reread your high school science textbook. 

 

5.  Gravity is by definition natural. Calling something supernatural gravity. Is I calling something living dead. That is to say a self contradictory illogical statement.

 

6. I have already pointed out all the things that are different  Between shards and gravity. I won't go over this again reread my post. 

 You are purposely ignoring my arguments. 

 

7.  They do make choices and take actions on their own reread rhythm of war.

8. My point is to point out the absurdity of your argument . Shards are normal gravity than you are gravity. Any similarity you can find between them and gravity you could make the same between you and gravity.

 So you might as well just declare yourself to be nothing more than gravity. 

[bmcclure7]

7 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

Let me put it like this: belief that Harmony exists does not mean one believes in gods, because Harmony is not a god. He has no authority or understanding over the afterlife, and that alone precludes him from godhood in my mind.

  It seems like you are only familiar with Abrahamic religions.  

 Most gods have little control authority over the afterlife. In most religions only one member of the pantheon has that. If at all. 

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Persians, Chinese, Japanese, Mayan, Incan, certain Egyptian and Indian dynasties, have all believed their rulers to be actual gods.

 Yes just like the ancient Egyptians in my example I don't see your point. 

[Frustration he/him]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.There is no God Beyond. What dose that even mean. The phrase appears no where in the cosmere.  You are literally make things up to support your argument 

He's mentioned by Dalinar, Hoid, Silence, Shai, Wayne and Brandon

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Chaos

You have once said, with regard to a question about Shards being the most powerful thing in the cosmere, that some would say that other "subtle forces" are being manifest. Are these subtle forces related to Adonalsium's opposition?

Brandon Sanderson

There is belief in a God who is not one of the Shards.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

Trae

The term "the God Beyond" is used across several worlds and stories set in the cosmere. Is this piece of terminology one that has spread across the cosmere through the intermingling of worldhoppers and native populations? And if not, is it merely a conceit that the translation into English we read encapsulates similar convergent ideas?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. I have been expecting that question for a while. So... various people are using this phrase, "The God Beyond." And, what Trae is asking is, "Is that a translation artifact?" ...Like, our conceit is, when you are reading a book from the cosmere, I (or someone) has translated it into English. So when you see someone make a pun, it doesn't necessarily mean they made that exact pun, it means they made a pun in their language that worked, and I am looking for one in English that expresses the same concept or the same humor. Or lack thereof, if you don't like puns. In our language. So, you're asking, the God Beyond: do they all say "the God Beyond"? Or the saying some entity that I am translating all as God Beyond. And they are actually all saying "God Beyond." It is the same, in their language, same thing. So, like worldsinger, worldbringer, things like this; the linguistic ties there are intentional, as opposed to just an artifact of the translation. There are things that are artifacts of translation very commonly, but that is not one. I am doing that intentionally.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  If your "God Beyond " (which doesn't exist in books outside of your head) is using connection then he is using investiture. So that mean investiture can reach into the beyond.

That's like saying that because God caused rain to fall on earth that humans can use rain to reach Heaven.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  Reread what I said about creation,  You seem to have completely missed my point. 

Your point is just you moving the goalpost

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  Gravity doesn't want anything it's an effect.  Please reread your high school science textbook.

Shards don't "want" anything either, it is just interpreted that way by the characters,

RoW

Spoiler

go reread the scene where Taravangian takes Odium, he says that the power "Seems" to want him. Shards are mindless forces that simply do things.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.  Gravity is by definition natural. Calling something supernatural gravity. Is I calling something living dead. That is to say a self contradictory illogical statement.

Hey, guess what, this is a fantasy series where the living dead are a thing.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

7.  They do make choices and take actions on their own reread rhythm of war.

Where?

Give me one time, where a Shard made a decision on it's own.

When has a shard gone "Oh, that would be bad for me" and then not done something?

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

8. My point is to point out the absurdity of your argument . Shards are normal gravity than you are gravity. Any similarity you can find between them and gravity you could make the same between you and gravity.

 So you might as well just declare yourself to be nothing more than gravity. 

Well gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces, with an interaction with the higgs field, and a soul.

So yes, not much more than that.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Yes just like the ancient Egyptians in my example I don't see your point. 

That they were beleived to be gods, and are acknowleged to have existed, but that does not remoe the possibility of atheism.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Frustration

[NameIess]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

It seems like you are only familiar with Abrahamic religions.  

 Most gods have little control authority over the afterlife. In most religions only one member of the pantheon has that. If at all. 

If you must not believe in beings that are or were considered gods no matter how ridiculous the claim that they are gods is in your opinion, then very few atheists exist. You seem to be arguing that anyone who admits that beings exist that you consider to be gods cannot be an atheist, and I disagree. You say that the Shards are gods. I do not agree with that statement

Edited February 23, 2023 by UnfortunatelyNamed

[Elder]

You know, I think, especially in today’s sociology-political environment, I could create a more or less scientific religion worshipping the sun.  Not that I would do this mind you, I already have my religion and Sun worship has nothing to do with it.

I could make a case for the Sun being alive, though not immortal or Eternal.  It was born and will die, but both events are so far outside our lifespans and history so as to render its mortality irrelevant.    It is however indisputably immensely powerful, and its power can quite easily be considered the source of all life.  From Sun to leaf to fruit or beast to man.  
 

Now here’s where this religion falls apart:  I don’t think any scientifically minded Atheist would dispute any of the above, but there’s also nothing motivating them to care.  They can nod at my insight if they like it, but whether they like it or not they can move on their way, my pseudo-religion having no impact on them whatsoever.

I also am unlikely to convert a religious minded person.  A.  They probably already have something they believe in and will reject other beliefs with tolerance, indifference or belligerence; B.  My religion still demands nothing of them.  The Sun cares not what we do down below.  I can make up meaning, principles, standards and stricture, but all of that is my own invention and unless I can get some influence behind it, means nothing.

Tying this back in to the discussion, this is the problem of the Path.  Harmony, like the Sun, does have power.  However, whether it’s due to his conflicted Intent or Sazed’s religious background as keeper of all the old religions, he demands very little of his followers and encourages rival religions.  People often want more structure from their religion.  Unlike Kelsier, who let his followers create structures and strictures that he likely doesn’t care about, Harmony is there to prevent that from happening with his own religion.  Perhaps if he put more effort in to creating a religion, he could do more with it. As it is, he’s pretty easy to dismiss as a god.  Though, I think on some level, that’s what he wants.  Might come back to bite him though. 

[bmcclure7]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He's mentioned by Dalinar, Hoid, Silence, Shai, Wayne and Brandon

  Hide contents

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Chaos

You have once said, with regard to a question about Shards being the most powerful thing in the cosmere, that some would say that other "subtle forces" are being manifest. Are these subtle forces related to Adonalsium's opposition?

Brandon Sanderson

There is belief in a God who is not one of the Shards.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

Trae

The term "the God Beyond" is used across several worlds and stories set in the cosmere. Is this piece of terminology one that has spread across the cosmere through the intermingling of worldhoppers and native populations? And if not, is it merely a conceit that the translation into English we read encapsulates similar convergent ideas?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. I have been expecting that question for a while. So... various people are using this phrase, "The God Beyond." And, what Trae is asking is, "Is that a translation artifact?" ...Like, our conceit is, when you are reading a book from the cosmere, I (or someone) has translated it into English. So when you see someone make a pun, it doesn't necessarily mean they made that exact pun, it means they made a pun in their language that worked, and I am looking for one in English that expresses the same concept or the same humor. Or lack thereof, if you don't like puns. In our language. So, you're asking, the God Beyond: do they all say "the God Beyond"? Or the saying some entity that I am translating all as God Beyond. And they are actually all saying "God Beyond." It is the same, in their language, same thing. So, like worldsinger, worldbringer, things like this; the linguistic ties there are intentional, as opposed to just an artifact of the translation. There are things that are artifacts of translation very commonly, but that is not one. I am doing that intentionally.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

That's like saying that becuase God caused rain to fall on earth that humans can use rain to reach Heaven.

Your point is just you moving the goalpost

Shards don't "want" anything either, it is just interpreted that way by the characters, go reread the scene where Taravangian takes Odium, he says that the power "Seems" to want him. Shards are mindless forces that simply do things.

Hey, guess what, this is a fantasy series where the living dead are a thing.

Where?

Give me one time, where a Shard made a decision on it's own.

When has a shard gone "Oh, that would be bad for me" and then not done something?

Well gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces, with an interaction with the higgs field, and a soul.

So yes, not much more than that.

That they were beleived to be gods, and are acknowleged to have existed, but that does not remoe the possibility of atheism.

1.Ok aside from that wob that,only says that there are people that some believe there is a god unrelated to shards, is any reference to this God beyond in the books? 

2.Dalinar has never even used the phrase "God beyond " what are you take about?

3. What dose your analogy about rain have any thing to do with investigature? Investiture is not rain, rain is natural, where as investiture is the power of God. 

4. No I not moving the goal post, you are just ignoring what i mean by creation in order insert your own definition.

5.  The power speaks to him, The power likes questions, The power chooses him, That's far from mindless.  I do agree that their mind is incomplete, There are only 1/16th a person after all.  But incomplete is not mindless. 

 

6.  That's exactly my point, Gravity, electromagnetism, Strong and weak forces, Don't interact with higher planes of existence they don't, Interact with the soul, Trying to compare them to investiture  Which does is profoundly stupid. 

 

It You're like saying vampires are just humans who are dead, and suck blood, And turn into bats, And can casually throw cars, None of these are things that regular humans can do so clearly vampires are not human. 

33 minutes ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

If you must not believe in beings that are or were considered gods no matter how ridiculous the claim that they are gods is in your opinion, then very few atheists exist. You seem to be arguing that anyone who admits that beings exist that you consider to be gods cannot be an atheist, and I disagree. You say that the Shards are gods. I do not agree with that statement

 I agree even in our world very few atheists exists. What people would consider themselves agnostic. Is the actual percentage of true atheist is very small.

 

You can disagree if the shards are God, But you recognize there exist and the existence of there supernatural power.  This is not the same as an atheist.

 If merely believing that something that claims to be a god was not  Then most christians would be atheist. 

[Elder]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Ok aside from that wob that,only says that there are people that some believe there is a god unrelated to shards, is any reference to this God beyond in the books? 

2.Dalinar has never even used the phrase "God beyond " what are you take about?

3. What dose your analogy about rain have any thing to do with investigature? Investiture is not rain, rain is natural, where as investiture is the power of God. 

4. No I not moving the goal post, you are just ignoring what i mean by creation in order insert your own definition.

5.  The power speaks to him, The power likes questions, The power chooses him, That's far from mindless.  I do agree that their mind is incomplete, There are only 1/16th a person after all.  But incomplete is not mindless. 

 

6.  That's exactly my point, Gravity, electromagnetism, Strong and weak forces, Don't interact with higher planes of existence they don't, Interact with the soul, Trying to compare them to investiture  Which does is profoundly stupid. 

 

It You're like saying vampires are just humans who are dead, and suck blood, And turn into bats, And can casually throw cars, None of these are things that regular humans can do so clearly vampires are not human. 

 I agree even in our world very few atheists exists. What people would consider themselves agnostic. Is the actual percentage of true atheist is very small.

 

You can disagree if the shards are God, But you recognize there exist and the existence of there supernatural power.  This is not the same as an atheist.

 If merely believing that something that claims to be a god was not  Then most christians would be atheist. 

Quote

“You won’t be the first celebrated soldier who has moved to a support position after seeing one too many friends die,” Dalinar said to Kaladin. “God Beyond willing, we’ll persuade the honorspren to work with us—and then we’ll need to train flocks of new Windrunners. You’ll be of great use overseeing Radiant training either way.”

Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War pg 148

Spoiler

Whatever was happening at Urithiru, Kaladin would face it standing up straight. God Beyond bless it to be enough, and that the Windrunner could reach Navani. For now, Dalinar had to focus on his current task.

Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War, pg 1152.

God Beyond is also referenced many times and is the primary deity in “Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell.”  God Beyond is the only deity we know of being worshipped on Threnody.  Probably the most formal example of that religion.

Wayne also muses on the God Beyond during his religious mixology in Shadows of Self.  Take that with salt to taste.

For more info:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/God_Beyond

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

You can disagree if the shards are God, But you recognize there exist and the existence of there supernatural power.  This is not the same as an atheist.

 If merely believing that something that claims to be a god was not  Then most christians would be atheist. 

Definition of atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Atheists can believe in shards, magic, or whatever, so long as they do not believe in God or gods.

And no, no Christian can be atheist. They by definition believe in God.

[Frustration he/him]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Ok aside from that wob that,only says that there are people that some believe there is a god unrelated to shards, is any reference to this God beyond in the books?

As I said, he's mentioned by Hoid, Dalinar, Wayne, Shai, Silence, and probably a few others.

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.Dalinar has never even used the phrase "God beyond " what are you take about?

That is not true, allow me to repeat one of your more annoying arguments: Go read rhythm of war.

8 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3. What dose your analogy about rain have any thing to do with investigature? Investiture is not rain, rain is natural, where as investiture is the power of God.

No it isn't, investiture is just another form of energy.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4. No I not moving the goal post, you are just ignoring what i mean by creation in order insert your own definition.

Creation: making something.

Gravity, is the force that makes planets. Just like rivers make canyons.

10 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

5.  The power speaks to him, The power likes questions, The power chooses him, That's far from mindless.  I do agree that their mind is incomplete, There are only 1/16th a person after all.  But incomplete is not mindless.

SEEMS to speak to him. That's just how his mind interprets it's attraction. Odium no more wants him than negative charges want an electron

11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

6.  That's exactly my point, Gravity, electromagnetism, Strong and weak forces, Don't interact with higher planes of existence they don't, Interact with the soul, Trying to compare them to investiture  Which does is profoundly stupid.

Shards can't interact with the afterlife.

13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

It You're like saying vampires are just humans who are dead, and suck blood, And turn into bats, And can casually throw cars, None of these are things that regular humans can do so clearly vampires are not human.

What vampire material do you read?

Aside from some Asian ones all the ones I know are decidedly just Human+, no more inhuman than Captain America.

[NameIess]

@Frustration, this thread is TLM spoilers only.

[Frustration he/him]

1 minute ago, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

@Frustration, this thread is TLM spoilers only.

Ah, that is correct.

[Elder]

I think it’s impossible to maintain the argument over the Omnipotence of Shards as well as the comparison of Adonalsium and The God Beyond and only stay within the confines of TLM spoilers.

May I propose that this debate has derailed this thread enough and really ought to be moved elsewhere?  

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  No gravity did not create the world creation implies direction, action, Choice, Gravity is an effect it doesn't have these things.

If there is a forest fire it would create ash, did trees choose to be ash? Gravity literally created our Universe as we know it. Creation is the effect of gravity. Definition of creation: the action or process of bringing something into existence. Force of gravity acts between matter, accumulating it into stars and planets.

[Elder]

Thought I just had:  with Trellism having failed, do you think Autonomy my try to co-opt Survivorism without involving Kelsier?  I mean she likes him, but he’s kinda established himself as against Autonomy.  There’s no real indication that Thaidakar gives Survivorism any particular attention.  A failing that could easily be taken advantage of.  Get a false prophet of the Survivor to supplant Kelsier and give the most popular religion on Scadrial to Autonomy.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Elder

[lacrossedeamon]

5 hours ago, Elder said:

Thought I just had:  with Trellism having failed, do you think Autonomy my try to co-opt Survivorism without involving Kelsier?  I mean she likes him, but he’s kinda established himself as against Autonomy.  There’s no real indication that Thaidakar gives Survivorism any particular attention.  A failing that could easily be taken advantage of.  Get a false prophet of the Survivor to supplant Kelsier and give the most popular religion on Scadrial to Autonomy.

Might be hard to coopt a religion with a still activity "deity". Sliverism would be a better bet IMO.

[Elder]

11 minutes ago, lacrossedeamon said:

Might be hard to coopt a religion with a still activity "deity". Sliverism would be a better bet IMO.

Yomens have connections to Hoid, and I have yet to see Kelsier pay any attention to his Church, but you may have a point.