Religious consequences[DISCUSS]

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Tell that to Kelsier.

Kelsier likes to do things he isn't supposed to.

[bmcclure7]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

There is a finite amount of Investiture.

  Reveal hidden contents

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3188

 

 

 

 

Therefore shards do not have infinite power.

Honor, Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion are all dead.

Brandon says otherwise

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

Questioner

<Do you know the answer>?

Brandon Sanderson

I know the answer, yes.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1733

 

 

 

 

 

Wrong again.   Dominion and devotion were combined to form the door.  Splinters of honor still exist on rocher, And well we don't know much about ambition we can rest assured splinters of her exist out there too. Investor cannot be destroyed. The shards are merely divided. 

 

 Harmony clearly says that the shards are infinite.  Unless you're supposed to be somehow lied to hoid.

 

 Elsewhere Brandon has said that the shards will outlive the heat death of the universe that's not infinite then it's so large  It might as well be.

 

I would like to remind you that wabs are soft cannon. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Because they are also limited by laws of nature. Apparently there are limits in observing the future of an uncooperative entity which is also observing the future.
And Shards are affected by it. This being the same issue users of atium and electrum have when meeting and

(Roshar)

  Reveal hidden contents

can be seen in the case of Renarin Kholin

we need to assume that it is independent of the vessel.

Now, I personally would not say that this precludes being a deity, but the distinction is real.

 

1. I don't understand what you're said staying, Future site can be blocked by future site. That just makes sense I don't see how it changes anything.  I don't understand the last part distinction from what it seems like we switched  Topic somehow I didn't realize. I think I need clarification I miss something somewhere.

 

2.  Personally I wouldn't put it that way. I wouldn't say that they are Is governed by laws of nature. They aren't affected by things like gravity, friction,  Strong and weak weak forces, and so on.

 Instead they seem to be governed by the laws of investiture, Intent, identity, Connection and so on. 

 

There is perhaps some overlap here in some ways but they're not a 1 for 1. I don't see anything that indicates that as if yet. 

 

 

[Elder]

24 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong again.   Dominion and devotion were combined to form the door.  Splinters of honor still exist on rocher, And well we don't know much about ambition we can rest assured splinters of her exist out there too. Investor cannot be destroyed. The shards are merely divided. 

 

 Harmony clearly says that the shards are infinite.  Unless you're supposed to be somehow lied to hoid.

 

 Elsewhere Brandon has said that the shards will outlive the heat death of the universe that's not infinite then it's so large  It might as well be.

 

I would like to remind you that wabs are soft cannon. 

Depends on how you want to define Death on this level. I mean death for Spren isn’t the same as death for humans.  I imagine Shards would define Death differently even still.  Calling splintering, the breaking up of power, death isn’t unreasonable.  
I suppose for me it would depend:  do the Splintered Shards retain the Intent of the Shard? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Elder

[Frustration]

49 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Wrong again.   Dominion and devotion were combined to form the door.  Splinters of honor still exist on rocher, And well we don't know much about ambition we can rest assured splinters of her exist out there too. Investor cannot be destroyed. The shards are merely divided.

Your body will still exist after you die, but you are still dead. Saying that shards are still alive after being splintered because parts of them are left over is like saying someone is still alive after going through a meat grinder.

But even if you want to argue that, we know that the intent of Investiture can change, so if you splinter a shard, and then change the intent of their Investiture, so that no Investiture has the intent of that shard, then no pieces of them exist. Now that would be almost impossible to do, but the fact remains it can be done.

50 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Harmony clearly says that the shards are infinite.  Unless you're supposed to be somehow lied to hoid. 

He did not say that they were infinite, he said they were ESSENTIALLY infinite. That's a big difference.

52 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Elsewhere Brandon has said that the shards will outlive the heat death of the universe that's not infinite then it's so large  It might as well be.

Anything other than infinite is not omnipotent, and I would ask to see this WoB, as nothing comes up when you search Heat+death+shard

53 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I would like to remind you that wabs are soft cannon. 

Yeah, and nothing in cannon contradicts them.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Your body will still exist after you die, but you are still dead. Saying that shards are still alive after being splintered because parts of them are left over is like saying someone is still alive after going through a meat grinder.

But even if you want to argue that, we know that the intent of Investiture can change, so if you splinter a shard, and then change the intent of their Investiture, so that no Investiture has the intent of that shard, then no pieces of them exist. Now that would be almost impossible to do, but the fact remains it can be done.

He did not say that they were infinite, he said they were ESSENTIALLY infinite. That's a big difference.

Anything other than infinite is not omnipotent, and I would ask to see this WoB, as nothing comes up when you search Heat+death+shard

Yeah, and nothing in cannon contradicts them.

  1.Considering odium hasn't done that yet I think it's safe to assume that's not an option. 

2. I fail to see the difference beyond semantics.

3.  You may have a point Can we say at least say that if the there essentially enfinet then there essentially omnipotent?

4.  I'll try to find the wob,  But it was someone asking for clarification of the wob earlier.  Basically they are wondering if the cosmere was in danger of running out of investigature. Basically he answered that investigure would long out last the heat death of the Universe,  so no. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.Considering odium hasn't done that yet I think it's safe to assume that's not an option.

Just because Odium doesn't consider it cost effective, or is able to do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Odium can't attack people directly either.

56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  You may have a point Can we say at least say that if the there essentially enfinet then there essentially omnipotent?

I would say no, because while a Shard would have to go out of their way to expend all of their power, there are still a lot of things that their power cannot do, no matter how much they have.

The main thing being touching the Beyond.

56 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  I'll try to find the wob,  But it was someone asking for clarification of the wob earlier.  Basically they are wondering if the cosmere was in danger of running out of investigature. Basically he answered that investigure would long out last the heat death of the Universe,  so no. 

That sounds like one I remember

Is this it?

Spoiler

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e3925

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Just because Odium doesn't consider it cost effective, or is able to do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Odium can't attack people directly either.

I would say no, because while a Shard would have to go out of their way to expend all of their power, there are still a lot of things that their power cannot do, no matter how much they have.

The main thing being touching the Beyond.

That sounds like one I remember

Is this it?

  Reveal hidden contents

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e3925

 

1. He couldn't past and he still didn't do it Is even when he had good reason to.

 

2.  I think you understand omniscience, Omniscience is not being Is able to do anything, It's having the power needed to do anything. A shard ( Pretend for a second that I'm right about this for the sake of argument please)   Did have infinite power they still couldn't make a married bachelor.  But that wouldn't mean  They weren't omniscient, Because the reason they can't make it married bachelor is not because they lack the power it's because by definition you cannot have a married bachelor.

 

3.  The vessel can't touch the beyond, Never said The Shard couldn't.  In fact as we see an oath bringer we have good reason to believe a shard could theoretically at least.

 

4. No it's not it was a different one. 

 

 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. He couldn't past and he still didn't do it Is even when he had good reason to.

Odium didn't shove the remains of Honor into the Cognitive realm either. Nor did he corrupt all of the Dor's Investiture. Him not doing it does not mean it isn't possible. We know for a fact that it is possible, you can turn stormlight into breath if you know what you are doing.

9 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  I think you understand omniscience, Omniscience is not being Is able to do anything, It's having the power needed to do anything. A shard ( Pretend for a second that I'm right about this for the sake of argument please)   Did have infinite power they still couldn't make a married bachelor.  But that wouldn't mean  They weren't omniscient, Because the reason they can't make it married bachelor is not because they lack the power it's because by definition you cannot have a married bachelor.

Omnipotence is all powerful.

Omniscience is all knowing.

And there are things that Investiture simply cannot do. It's not an impossibility thing, it's a limitation of Investiture.

11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  The vessel can't touch the beyond, Never said The Shard couldn't.  In fact as we see an oath bringer we have good reason to believe a shard could theoretically at least.

Shards can't

Spoiler

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Shards can talk to dead people. Are the Tranquiline Halls where everyone in the cosmere goes when they die? Or does each world have its own heaven.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/145/#e2717

 

 

 

[Elder]

@bmcclure7, is this the WoB you’re looking for?

Quote

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Your body will still exist after you die, but you are still dead. Saying that shards are still alive after being splintered because parts of them are left over is like saying someone is still alive after going through a meat grinder.

Shard as a power is still alive, Shard as an entity might be dead (Dor is a counterargument for this as it developed sentience). I think it's important to distinguish these two.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

He did not say that they were infinite, he said they were ESSENTIALLY infinite. That's a big difference.

There are 10^82 atoms in the observable universe, for us humans it might be as good as infinite. We can't comprehend numbers that big, so we might just call it infinity. I think we can say that Shards have infinite power, even if they don't, but they are very very close to it, so it just doesn't matter.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

I would say no, because while a Shard would have to go out of their way to expend all of their power, there are still a lot of things that their power cannot do, no matter how much they have.

Again, how I see it, Shards are omnipotent, in the sense and definition that they have (nearly) infinite power (so close to it that Brandon constantly calls it infinite) - but they are not all powerful, they can't do everything they want. They have power, but can't use it without limits. And that's in the context of religion and the question if Shards are god. They can be easily qualified as gods, they have power, but can't do everything they want.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Shard as a power is still alive, Shard as an entity might be dead (Dor is a counterargument for this as it developed sentience). I think it's important to distinguish these two.

There are 10^82 atoms in the observable universe, for us humans it might be as good as infinite. We can't comprehend numbers that big, so we might just call it infinity. I think we can say that Shards have infinite power, even if they don't, but they are very very close to it, so it just doesn't matter.

Again, how I see it, Shards are omnipotent, in the sense and definition that they have (nearly) infinite power (so close to it that Brandon constantly calls it infinite) - but they are not all powerful, they can't do everything they want. They have power, but can't use it without limits. And that's in the context of religion and the question if Shards are god. They can be easily qualified as gods, they have power, but can't do everything they want.

1) Well the power itself was never really "alive" in the first place. Investiture left alone can 'come to life' but most Shards never got that chance (though the Dor might be starting to become alive, as it invests the land of Sel, and Odium might have become a little alive due to Rayse's poor control of it).

But living Investiture can still be killed even though the power itself isn't destroyed. Spren and Cognitive Shadows are living Investiture and there are several ways to kill them, anti-Investiture or Nightblood being the most definitive.

Splintering of a Shard destroys it as a distinct entity, which is as close to "killed" as is possible for something that isn't really alive. If Odium had gone on to develop a full personality, then Splintering it would kill that personality, like a spren being killed.

2) I agree Shards are most likely "so vast in power that to humans they might as well be infinite, since nothing but another Shard is remotely comparable" rather than "literally mathematically infinite". I'd say that a finite quantity of atium affecting the Preservation-Ruin balance confirms this absolutely, except that there might be a distinction between the total cosmere-wide power of the Shard ⁰

3) "omnipotent" is a much stronger claim than just "infinite" though. If two infinite beings can successfully prevent one another from acting, neither is omnipotent. So even if one thinks that Shards are mathematically infinite, they are not omnipotent. In addition to opposition by other Shards, they're also limited by some Spiritual Realm mechanics like Connection and (Stormlight)

Spoiler

general cosmere limits on future sight - "mortal" future sight (Renarin) can still interfere with Shardic future sight (Odium).

 

[alder24]

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

1) Well the power itself was never really "alive" in the first place. Investiture left alone can 'come to life' but most Shards never got that chance (though the Dor might be starting to become alive, as it invests the land of Sel, and Odium might have become a little alive due to Rayse's poor control of it).

The power of Odium was speaking to Taravangian and telling him "you're perfect". One Shard was offered to Hoid during Shattering as well. What I wanted to say is that the Shard as a power can be destroyed. But the Shard as an entity can be. 

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

3) "omnipotent" is a much stronger claim than just "infinite" though. If two infinite beings can successfully prevent one another from acting, neither is omnipotent.

It's mathematically indeterminable, infinity minus infinity is approaching 0. I see nothing wrong with it. Like I said, they have power, but they can't act. Some might consider them gods, some might not. I understand both sides of the argument.

[bmcclure7]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Odium didn't shove the remains of Honor into the Cognitive realm either. Nor did he corrupt all of the Dor's Investiture. Him not doing it does not mean it isn't possible. We know for a fact that it is possible, you can turn stormlight into breath if you know what you are doing.

Omnipotence is all powerful.

Omniscience is all knowing.

And there are things that Investiture simply cannot do. It's not an impossibility thing, it's a limitation of Investiture.

Shards can't

  Reveal hidden contents

Khyrindor (paraphrased)

Shards can talk to dead people. Are the Tranquiline Halls where everyone in the cosmere goes when they die? Or does each world have its own heaven.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There is an afterlife that is not heaven that the Shards don't know about, or can't look into. Each world has its own heaven depending on its religions. The real afterlife is different across the cosmere, and the Tranquiline Halls are different.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/145/#e2717

 

 

 

1.  I'm not convinced odium could corrupt up aondor investiture,  At least not without merging with it himself.

2.  Having limitations doesn't mean you're not All-powerful. We could look to Abrahamic religions  As a good example of an All-powerful being that is still limited.

 

Regardless of weatherYou're Jewish Christian or MuslimAll 3 would agree that there are some things that Yhwh  Just can't do, So Not being able to do something does not make you not All-powerful as long as the reason for it is not I don't have enough power. 

 I strongly disagree with your statement that just because  Other All-powerful beings can counter you that that makes you not All-powerful.  To be quite Frank it makes no logical sense.

 

As for the Brandon "and seen into the beyond. I think we're under some confusion you're talking about vessel  Whereas I'm talk about investiture, Obviously the investor of shards acaccess the beyond RoW proved it. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  I'm not convinced odium could cure up all a aondor investiture,  At least not without merchant with it himself.

Then there are things that Investiture can do which he can't, because we know that that is possible.

2 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

2.  Having limitations doesn't mean you're not All-powerful. We could look to Abrahamic religions  As a good example of an All-powerful being that is still limited.

 

Regardless of weatherYou're Jewish Christian or MuslimAll 3 would agree that there are some things that Yhwh  Just can't do, So Not being able to do something does not make you not All-powerful as long as the reason for it is not I don't have enough power. 

Shards do not have unlimited power

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bmcclure7]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then there are things that Investiture can do which he can't, because we know that that is possible.

Shards do not have unlimited power

  Hide contents

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That wob is no longer cannon read rythm of war.

 If there are things that investiture can do but shards can't  Then that must be limination of the vessel, Sense other than the vessel a shard is pure investiture.  

Edited February 6, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

That wob is no longer cannon read rythm of war.

You should read it.

It does not say infinite, just essentially so. Meaning a calculated and determined amount, that is so large it couldn't reasonably be used.

Or read HoA, Ruin was more powerful than Preservation, and TLM reaffirms that.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Frustration

[bmcclure7]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You should read it.

It does not say infinite, just essentially so. Meaning a calculated and determined amount, that is so large it couldn't reasonably be used.

Or read HoA, Ruin was more powerful than Preservation, and TLM reaffirms that.

 You seem confused on the meaning of essentially

es·sen·tial·ly

/əˈsen(t)SHəlē/

Learn to pronounce

 

adverb

adverb: essentially

1. used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person, thing, or situation.

   "essentially, they are amateurs"

    

    

    

    

    

   2 infinates are not necessarily equal

    

    

   3. Considered this wob

    

   Questioner

   For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

   Brandon Sanderson

   The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

   Questioner

   What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

   Brandon Sanderson

   So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

   Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

[cometaryorbit]

I think that WoB is problematic because the questioner *assumes* Adonalsium created an infinite universe (that's far from confirmed).

[bmcclure7]

21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think that WoB is problematic because the questioner *assumes* Adonalsium created an infinite universe (that's far from confirmed).

 Maybe but that hasn't not been  Disconfirmed either. And Brandon didn't correct him. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Maybe but that hasn't not been  Disconfirmed either. And Brandon didn't correct him. 

No evidence to the contrary, is not evidence in favor

[bmcclure7]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No evidence to the contrary, is not evidence in favor

 True but neither is it evidence against. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:24 PM, bmcclure7 said:

 Maybe but that hasn't not been  Disconfirmed either. And Brandon didn't correct him. 

True but I don't think Brandon would want to give away something like "Adonalsium didn't actually create the Cosmere" (and doesn't TwinSoul imply that he believes that?) or "Adonalsium only created the Cosmere star cluster, not the universe it's part of" yet. It's intentionally ambiguous so far - and likely until Dragonsteel - what Adonalsium was.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

True but I don't think Brandon would want to give away something like "Adonalsium didn't actually create the Cosmere" (and doesn't TwinSoul imply that he believes that?) or "Adonalsium only created the Cosmere star cluster, not the universe it's part of" yet. It's intentionally ambiguous so far - and likely until Dragonsteel - what Adonalsium was.

 Are you really claiming that adonalsium didn't create the universe?  We  have no evidence to suggest that and wabs are in the books.

  To Brandon Sanderson has said multiple times that I adonalsium didn't have any rivals.    Which seems to preclude Some other God that made the universe. 

 In addition even if there was I don't  Think that's a guarantee that his power wasn't infinite. 

 

 How is it ambiguous who he was. I've never found any ambiguity about him. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by bmcclure7

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Are you really claiming that adonalsium didn't create the universe?  We  have no evidence to suggest that and wabs are in the books.

We have no evidence that he did either.

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

To Brandon Sanderson has said multiple times that I adonalsium didn't have any rivals.

No, he's only said that there isn't a Anti-Adonalsium, not that there aren't other forces out there.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Frustration