ROW Epilogue and Odium

[NikkolasKing]

I've always been dubious about Todium. I just felt it was such an abrupt turn after Rayse has been the greatest scourge in the Cosmere for basically forever. I also just felt it was incredibly frustrating that we had this rivalry between him and Wit built up, and then we finally get an actual exchange between Odium and Wit, only to have it not be Rayse.

 

But finishing the ROW audiobook again, there is something I had not remembered. Michael Kramer's "Taravangian being Rayse voice" is absolutely ridiculous. That's not a criticism of him, it matches the equally ridiculous dialogue. I realize this is Taravangian pretending to be Rayse but it's supposed to be a good enough Rayse impression to fool Wit. So a Rayse who sounds like and talks like an exceptionally bad 80s cartoon villain is supposed to be "authentic." As opposed to the oh so wise Taravangian.

Edited November 17, 2022 by NikkolasKing

[StormingTexan]

I need to go back and re-listen to that because I do not remember now that you bring it up. 

 

I actually liked the Todium move. There is a pretty good WoB explaining why he did this but essentially it boiled down to the fact that Dalinar had essentially already defeated "Rayse". 

[Returned]

I'm ambivalent on Taravangian-as-Odium. It might end up being really interesting, and it might not. The event in itself is less important to me than what it produces down the line. I think, given how much of the Cosmere story there still is to tell, that Rayse was largely used up by the end of Rhythm. He's deific, radically beyond the ability of ordinary mortals to oppose directly, and yet he's bound by poorly-defined rules that stop him from using his deity in useful ways which he's otherwise fully capable of using. So he ends up with ridiculously convoluted schemes and indirect action, nearly all of which fail. There's only so long we can have an (essentially) omnipotent antagonist who constantly fails yet still remains a menacing, impactful archvillain. The switch gets out of that jam, and also gives a chance to shake up the overarching conflict in future books.

I do agree that the change was abrupt, though I'm not sure how much could have been done to head that off. People already fill the forum with "X is the next holder of the Y Shard" theories, with rationales ranging from plausible to baseless nonsense-- in that environment, even a little bit of foreshadowing (or even setup) can get chancy. I never noticed the Kramer voice change for Odium, but I'd imagine he did it to make clear that it isn't Rayse's actual voice; he obviously can do the Rayse voice, having created and used it already, so there must be some reason to have not used it there. Shards seem more than capable of perfect imitations of that sort of thing (Ruin certainly could), so my bet would be that this is a Michael Kramer thing and not an in-universe thing. Though we may find out that something was off in Taravangian's presentation, tipping Hoid off, and the voice change was meant to express that (or something).

[NikkolasKing]

34 minutes ago, Returned said:

I'm ambivalent on Taravangian-as-Odium. It might end up being really interesting, and it might not. The event in itself is less important to me than what it produces down the line. I think, given how much of the Cosmere story there still is to tell, that Rayse was largely used up by the end of Rhythm. He's deific, radically beyond the ability of ordinary mortals to oppose directly, and yet he's bound by poorly-defined rules that stop him from using his deity in useful ways which he's otherwise fully capable of using. So he ends up with ridiculously convoluted schemes and indirect action, nearly all of which fail. There's only so long we can have an (essentially) omnipotent antagonist who constantly fails yet still remains a menacing, impactful archvillain. The switch gets out of that jam, and also gives a chance to shake up the overarching conflict in future books.

I do agree that the change was abrupt, though I'm not sure how much could have been done to head that off. People already fill the forum with "X is the next holder of the Y Shard" theories, with rationales ranging from plausible to baseless nonsense-- in that environment, even a little bit of foreshadowing (or even setup) can get chancy. I never noticed the Kramer voice change for Odium, but I'd imagine he did it to make clear that it isn't Rayse's actual voice; he obviously can do the Rayse voice, having created and used it already, so there must be some reason to have not used it there. Shards seem more than capable of perfect imitations of that sort of thing (Ruin certainly could), so my bet would be that this is a Michael Kramer thing and not an in-universe thing. Though we may find out that something was off in Taravangian's presentation, tipping Hoid off, and the voice change was meant to express that (or something).

Like I said, I think Kramer was just responding to what was written:

I noticed your touch on the contract, a dramatic voice said in his head

I hate you.

 I shall have my vengeance, Odium said. Even if it takes an eternity, Cephandrius, I will destroy you.

It matters not. Whomever I pick, they will destroy Dalinar’s champion! Then I will use him, and my minions on this planet, to finally do whatever I wish!

 

 

I can just see him shaking his fist and going "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" That is how Taravangian perceives and presents Rayse. And that fooled Wit.

Edited November 17, 2022 by NikkolasKing

[Quantus]

58 minutes ago, NikkolasKing said:

I can just see him shaking his fist and going "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" That is how Taravangian perceives and presents Rayse. And that fooled Wit.

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't that version specifically Not Fool Wit, necessitating the memory shenanigans?

[NikkolasKing]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't that version specifically Not Fool Wit, necessitating the memory shenanigans?

Everything was as Wit expected until Taravangian asked him who he, Wit, would choose as champion. 

[Letryx13]

I'm mostly unsettled by Todium by the fact that he managed to get the better of Hoid. I don't much like Hoid's character, in fact I think he'll be an enemy in the future, but the fact remains that he has always been a step ahead of everyone else. Kelsier, Rayse, Harmony, other shards, it doesn't matter.  He's managed to get around all of them. 

This is really the first time anyone beat him.  People have surprised him before, like when Shallan hugged him, but no one ever really got the better of him before this.  Clearly, that's Sanderson's way of showing exactly how dangerous the combination of Tarravangian with the Shard of Odium is, which is what makes the combination so unsettling.  Odium never felt as frightening as Ruin did, for example, but that was largely because we didn't understand what Ruin was, and the Radiant's existed on Roshar. Now, we're in completely unfamiliar territory with an even more crafty Father of Hatred.

I think Odium will be permanently bound after book 5, and I have my own theory as to how it will happen, so I think it was a good plot twist overall, making for an interesting cliff hanger. I've see this sort of thing done before, switching up the expected final boss just before the big ending. And if the final confrontation is done well, it can be great. Considering the buildup of Tarravangian and Dalinar as parallels to each other, with their differing response to the looming threat of Odium, I think the book 5 will be good with Todium as the big bad of the first half of the series.

[Returned]

20 hours ago, NikkolasKing said:

Like I said, I think Kramer was just responding to what was written

[...]

I can just see him shaking his fist and going "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" That is how Taravangian perceives and presents Rayse. And that fooled Wit.

It's certainly possible. And, frustratingly, it'll be a while before we get much more information on it. It's your last sentence that's the trouble though, I think. Wit's one of the most difficult people to fool in all of the Cosmere, and since we have both a WoB confirming that he was fooled here, plus Taravangian's do-overs, the idea that the voice is so obviously different from Rayse's doesn't seem to fit at all. While I do agree that the villainous speech is on the cheesy side, I think that the conclusion that Hoid can't recognize a totally different voice as not being Rayse's (in any meaningful way) is overdetermined. Maybe we'll remember this thread when KoW comes out and can revisit with more information!

[Treamayne]

Don't forget that the very last line of the epilogue is:

Spoiler

After all, Wit’s first face-to-face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he had imagined.

So, not only could TOdium have imitated Rayse's voice (sound wise) but having looked at Wit's memories when he stole them, he was able to see what Wit thought Rayse would be like (or possibly how the mortal Rayse acted before Ascending). 

Yes it is over-the-top melodrama; but it was designed to meet Wit's expectations because the first interaction went poorly (from TOdium's persepective) so while the speech patterns and vocabulary don't match the Odium we saw before this - it doesn't mean that the voice sounds don't match (even if the audiobook narrator changed the sounds), and the context was designed to meet the expectations of the audience (Wit). 

[Stigmadiabolicum]

Haha well, as a counter, the graphic audio is absolutely great for that scene. It's rayse but with an odd effect to it and some of taravangians twang. 

Honestly once you get used to the characters having actual voices having one guy do all of them just feels stunted, especially hamming it up that much..the GA he just seems like rayse being slightly odd. 

Lopen, Wayne, done so damn perfectly, and obviously Wit.

But yeah, even after the years it's got like multiple layers to it, the first time you think Todium has the total upper hand, but then wits dialogue makes you wonder if it's a double blind..

Honestly, considering he was fooled by the pen earlier we know he's not infallible, and hed have no clue Rayse died..but i also agree with others that he specifically had x amount of breaths to detect tampering, he probably knows later he was bamboozled haha..i think Todium needed a win after rayse got owned so many times, and it's an ominous epilogue to have wit himself get wombled, but by the next book i totally expect he learned something/did something to get an upper hand or angle.

What's hilarious is it wasn't even anything too intelligent or sneaky that tipped him off, just being slightly calm and curious, not pure passion and anger.

After all his positioning to go after rayse, the letters to frost, it's odd he would just never get an actual encounter or clash with him, but I'm guessing that won't go to waste, it'll actually contribute to the threat of Todium when he explains he's 1000 times more dangerous now, especially before being consumed by the intent 

[rabidhexley]

On 11/17/2022 at 0:27 PM, Returned said:

 

I do agree that the change was abrupt, though I'm not sure how much could have been done to head that off. People already fill the forum with "X is the next holder of the Y Shard" theories, with rationales ranging from plausible to baseless nonsense-- in that environment, even a little bit of foreshadowing (or even setup) can get chancy. I never noticed the Kramer voice change for Odium, but I'd imagine he did it to make clear that it isn't Rayse's actual voice; he obviously can do the Rayse voice, having created and used it already, so there must be some reason to have not used it there. Shards seem more than capable of perfect imitations of that sort of thing (Ruin certainly could), so my bet would be that this is a Michael Kramer thing and not an in-universe thing. Though we may find out that something was off in Taravangian's presentation, tipping Hoid off, and the voice change was meant to express that (or something).

Like you noted, Sanderson is in the type of position where his ability to telegraph/foreshadow twists is tempered by the fact that nearly everything will be picked up on. All in all, it's a good twist that I think was sufficiently foreshadowed. From WoK Taravangian has been built up as the ultimate puppet master, and his character interplay with Dalinar was always much more overt than it was between Dalinar and Rayse. And the more we've learned about Rayse himself has always had the vibe of building towards an anti-climax, with the threat-level on a downward trajectory. With the benefit of hindsight it doesn't seem that weird for Taravangian to have been the "actual bad guy" all along, up to Oathbringer his chapters had been some of the most ominous.

Quote

Honestly, considering he was fooled by the pen earlier we know he's not infallible, and hed have no clue Rayse died..but i also agree with others that he specifically had x amount of breaths to detect tampering, he probably knows later he was bamboozled haha..i think Todium needed a win after rayse got owned so many times, and it's an ominous epilogue to have wit himself get wombled, but by the next book i totally expect he learned something/did something to get an upper hand or angle.

Hard to say what's going to happen, but I'm also pretty sure Wit will realize/has realized he was bamboozled as well. The main issue is that he won't necessarily be sure how he was played. I'm not sure how he'll find out that Rayse is dead, and Taravangian has a alibi from Szeth. Even if he's not completely in the dark, he's still been put in a situation where he no longer holds all the cards or what his opponents are about to play. Hoid's a genius, but he seems like the kinda guy who's strategy always starts with "Always have the upper hand".

Edited December 21, 2022 by rabidhexley

[Wyndle88]

"Transitive property of ineptitude." Did anyone connect Wit' statement in TotES with Row epilogue.