Odium vs Passion

[Higgs-Boson Spren]

Rayse claims the shard embodies all passion, though the other shards named him Odium. We see that voidlight does enhance emotions in general, but especially aggressive and hateful passions. So is Odium the shard of all passions because passion directly causes hatred?

[bmcclure7]

11 hours ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

Rayse claims the shard embodies all passion, though the other shards named him Odium. We see that voidlight does enhance emotions in general, but especially aggressive and hateful passions. So is Odium the shard of all passions because passion directly causes hatred?

Well if you feel passionate about something or someone, that can produce feelings of hatred if that person or thing is get disrespected so maybe. 

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, Higgs-Boson Spren said:

Rayse claims the shard embodies all passion, though the other shards named him Odium. We see that voidlight does enhance emotions in general, but especially aggressive and hateful passions. So is Odium the shard of all passions because passion directly causes hatred?

I always had the impression that Rayse "doth protest too much." His claims of being "all passions" are a long con he's playing on himself, along with a barely recognized scam he is playing on others. Viewpoints from Venli and Leshwi support this, but the most direct evidence is (RoW Ch 114):
 

Spoiler

 

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

In this new role, Taravangian had two sides. On one was his knowledge: ideas, understandings, truths, lies … Thousands upon thousands of possible futures opened up to him. Millions of potentials. So numerous that even his expanded godly mind was daunted by their variety.

On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

 

Sure, there may be elements of "passion" and "emotion," but it seems only in how they connect to violence and hatred (such as the Rhythm of Anxiety becoming the Rhythm of Agony).

[bmcclure7]

26 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I always had the impression that Rayse "doth protest too much." His claims of being "all passions" are a long con he's playing on himself, along with a barely recognized scam he is playing on others. Viewpoints from Venli and Leshwi support this, but the most direct evidence is (RoW Ch 114):
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

In this new role, Taravangian had two sides. On one was his knowledge: ideas, understandings, truths, lies … Thousands upon thousands of possible futures opened up to him. Millions of potentials. So numerous that even his expanded godly mind was daunted by their variety.

On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

 

Sure, there may be elements of "passion" and "emotion," but it seems only in how they connect to violence and hatred (such as the Rhythm of Anxiety becoming the Rhythm of Agony).

Let me bring up some counter points.

1. The very fact the it specifies "deeply" seem to indicate that it must also include some content passions.

2. The shard is seems to be attracted to  some other Passions including bravery and what appears to be curiosity.

3. When Dalinar experience the shard he describes as more the just hatred.

I'm not saying your wrong, just explaining why I'm confused. It seems like we have good in text reason to believe that odium =hatred and yet also in text reason to think that odium =passion. There must be some way to reconcile these to views that I'm just not seeing.  

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

just explaining why I'm confused. It seems like we have good in text reason to believe that odium =hatred and yet also in text reason to think that odium =passion. There must be some way to reconcile these to views that I'm just not seeing.

You seem to think these are mutually exclusive. I'm not sure that they are. I think of it as more of a Venn Diagram - that Odium has sway over not just "hatred" but those things that intersect with the concept and can be influenced at the points of intersection. e.g. - not just Bravery, but specifically combat bravery as expressed by the Thrill (including bravery in the execution of violence). After all, (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Ruin wasn't just about blowing the ashmounts and causing earthquakes. Preservation wasn't just about enabling TLR to maintain an unchanging Empire for a millennium.

 

[StanLemon]

I think it's hard to truly hate if you aren't passionate about things, though I don't think he's the only Shard that has passion in its purview.

I could imagine Valor also having a great deal to do with passion as well

[Letryx13]

On 11/5/2022 at 8:20 AM, Treamayne said:

I always had the impression that Rayse "doth protest too much." His claims of being "all passions" are a long con he's playing on himself, along with a barely recognized scam he is playing on others. Viewpoints from Venli and Leshwi support this, but the most direct evidence is (RoW Ch 114):
 

  Hide contents

 

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

In this new role, Taravangian had two sides. On one was his knowledge: ideas, understandings, truths, lies … Thousands upon thousands of possible futures opened up to him. Millions of potentials. So numerous that even his expanded godly mind was daunted by their variety.

On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

 

Sure, there may be elements of "passion" and "emotion," but it seems only in how they connect to violence and hatred (such as the Rhythm of Anxiety becoming the Rhythm of Agony).

I suspect if anyone ever directly asked Odium about this, he would say other emotions weren't "true" passions. The Shards don't seem to lie much, but a lot of what they say is open to interpretation. 

It might have been interesting if the Shards were incapable of lying at all, but we've seen other Shards beside Odium outright lie before, so that doesn't quite work.

[Returned]

We already know that the Shards are much more than just the names that have become common for them, even if that "much more" largely revolves around a theme, and even the themes are (somewhat) malleable based on the Intent of a Vessel. A formulation like "Odium = [anything]" is too reductive. Certainly Odium is more than just hatred, but I don't think that it is generically emotion either.

Beings are plenty emotional, even passionate, on worlds where Odium is not. Koloss are pretty emotionally driven and love to destroy things, and they seem to be definitively of Ruin (being formed directly from its magic). Also, Ruin refers to Passion, capital P! Raoden is passionate about leading people. What remained of Leras in Secret History was pretty into preserving things, perhaps even passionately so. Harmony seems to care quite a bit about feelings (his own and those of others), even if they aren't his primary focus. I don't think that emotions are Odium's primary focus either; they just come along with the things Odium tends to do and the way it tends to do them.

My impression of Odium is that its theme isn't hatred, or even passion, but rather is conflict. Emotion can certainly drive conflict, especially hatred and other feelings that are similar to it. Hatred arguably produces the most intense and inevitable/intractable conflict but it isn't the only way to cause one by far. If we talk about the Set from Mistborn, their Passions (such as they are-- the capital P may not be totally appropriate here) don't seem emotional. They are curious, ambitious, methodical, and thirst for power and control. These driving traits propel them into conflict all over the place, including internally amongst their own members. I think that Odium would find a lot to work with even among such a dry group, and wouldn't have any problems or obstacles in doing so-- they wouldn't need to be more hotheaded or anything like that. He may have already begun working with them (eight days until the 15th, when we'll know for sure!).

Edited November 7, 2022 by Returned

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, pretty much.

Odium isn't just hate the way Honor isn't just honor. Honor's also about bonds in a wider sense. Adhesion is Honor's Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths, but even "I can speak your language now" Spiritual Adhesion - much less "magic glue" basic Physical Adhesion - seems only very tangentially related to "honor". 'Honor' may be an interpretation of the fundamental principle of bonds.

It's interesting to me though that Taravangian's Ascension scene puts fury as equal to hatred, maybe even more so. It's not hatred with anger and fear and desire etc as side issues, it's more (fury+hatred) with fear and desire etc as side issues.

I think @Returnedis on the right track with conflict, given the importance of "fury" in the Taravangian scene and the part about 'the power likes arguments' (even when the Vessel just wants to be obeyed) in the Sja-anat interlude. Odium IMO is most fundamentally about opposition and the motivation for opposition, perhaps aggression. That's why its essence is primarily (anger+hatred) rather than just hate.

The term "Passion" is an interesting one though. Rayse is definitely being deceptive at some level, but there's an ambiguity to the word.

In modern times it most commonly is more or less equivalent to "desire" either romantically (even in Stormlight there are 'passionspren') or as in "having a passion for (an activity)". But the older meaning is more like emotion (of any type) that threatens rationality, that can sweep someone away. The 'animal' part of the soul, vs specifically human reason. Ultimately it comes from a word for "suffering" as in "Passion of Christ" in Christianity.

Edited November 10, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Firesong]

7 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, pretty much.

...

Yeah, I see him as just the Shard of very intense emotion, given how Dalinar described seeing the Shard, and how Rayse described it. This just includes hatred and fury, and those are perhaps the strongest emotions in them. 

You can also see it in how Taravangian aligned with Odium's Intent only when he was extremely sensitive to emotions and extremely empathetic, not exactly angry. He actually wasn't exactly angry at all when he managed to pick it up, iirc. 

So yeah, I feel it is accurate to say that Odium is passion, in the more older sense of the term. 

[Letryx13]

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Odium isn't just hate the way Honor isn't just honor. Honor's also about bonds in a wider sense. Adhesion is Honor's Truest Surge, the Surge of Binding and Oaths, but even "I can speak your language now" Spiritual Adhesion - much less "magic glue" basic Physical Adhesion - seems only very tangentially related to "honor". 'Honor' may be an interpretation of the fundamental principle of bonds.

It's interesting to me though that Taravangian's Ascension scene puts fury as equal to hatred, maybe even more so. It's not hatred with anger and fear and desire etc as side issues, it's more (fury+hatred) with fear and desire etc as side issues.

I think @Returnedis on the right track with conflict, given the importance of "fury" in the Taravangian scene and the part about 'the power likes arguments' (even when the Vessel just wants to be obeyed) in the Sja-anat interlude. Odium IMO is most fundamentally about opposition and the motivation for opposition, perhaps aggression. That's why its essence is primarily (anger+hatred) rather than just hate.

The term "Passion" is an interesting one though. Rayse is definitely being deceptive at some level, but there's an ambiguity to the word.

In modern times it most commonly is more or less equivalent to "desire" either romantically (even in Stormlight there are 'passionspren') or as in "having a passion for (an activity)". But the older meaning is more like emotion (of any type) that threatens rationality, that can sweep someone away. The 'animal' part of the soul, vs specifically human reason. Ultimately it comes from a word for "suffering" as in "Passion of Christ" in Christianity.

On the other hand, there are the Shards Ambition, Mercy, and Devotion, all of which seem like they could be related to emotions too.  Ambition (not the Shard) and passion seem like they could overlap somewhat.  People's passions and ambitions often tie together, being the best at a sport, for example.  And mercy and devotion (still not Shards) seem like positive emotions compared to Odium's (the Shard) negative emotions like craving or fury. 

I think Odium could embody negative emotions such as fear, anger, and hate in general. Not just hatred.  I think there's a WoB about how Odium could have been a Shard of fear not hatred, so I think negative emotions in general are a good description of him.

[bmcclure7]

On 11/7/2022 at 4:08 PM, Returned said:

We already know that the Shards are much more than just the names that have become common for them, even if that "much more" largely revolves around a theme, and even the themes are (somewhat) malleable based on the Intent of a Vessel. A formulation like "Odium = [anything]" is too reductive. Certainly Odium is more than just hatred, but I don't think that it is generically emotion either.

Beings are plenty emotional, even passionate, on worlds where Odium is not. Koloss are pretty emotionally driven and love to destroy things, and they seem to be definitively of Ruin (being formed directly from its magic). Also, Ruin refers to Passion, capital P! Raoden is passionate about leading people. What remained of Leras in Secret History was pretty into preserving things, perhaps even passionately so. Harmony seems to care quite a bit about feelings (his own and those of others), even if they aren't his primary focus. I don't think that emotions are Odium's primary focus either; they just come along with the things Odium tends to do and the way it tends to do them.

My impression of Odium is that its theme isn't hatred, or even passion, but rather is conflict. Emotion can certainly drive conflict, especially hatred and other feelings that are similar to it. Hatred arguably produces the most intense and inevitable/intractable conflict but it isn't the only way to cause one by far. If we talk about the Set from Mistborn, their Passions (such as they are-- the capital P may not be totally appropriate here) don't seem emotional. They are curious, ambitious, methodical, and thirst for power and control. These driving traits propel them into conflict all over the place, including internally amongst their own members. I think that Odium would find a lot to work with even among such a dry group, and wouldn't have any problems or obstacles in doing so-- they wouldn't need to be more hotheaded or anything like that. He may have already begun working with them (eight days until the 15th, when we'll know for sure!).

I agree that emotions dose not equal passion.  For me I think passion is more about internal drive. This includes some emotions like hate or anger but also non things like curiosity or desire.  It also excludes things emotions like depression or apathy.  

[Treamayne]

45 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I agree that emotions dose not equal passion.  For me I think passion is more about internal drive. This includes some emotions like hate or anger but also non things like curiosity or desire.  It also excludes things emotions like depression or apathy.  

I would actually consider depression as a Passion. Especially if you consider "The Passions" (both as shown by the Fused/Singers and as the Thaylen's religion/philosophy) as describing an emotion that promotes or provokes an action. Anger you might complain via internal monologue, Hate you go out and stormin' do something about it. Contrition might have you feeling a twinge of guilt,  Remorse has you apologizing and making amends. In this context Depression might fit since it forces a lack of action. . .