Making Kelsier Make Sense

[FearTheAluminumMisting]

My perspective: Read all cosmere except for a few of the novellas and white sand. Rereading era 2 right now for the lost metal, have read none of the previews, and don't intend to.

It bugs me how the heck Kelsier got back into a physical form (making this assumption off of the SL5 prologue). We know hemalurgy has something to do with it, but I don't even like that because in almost every case of hemalurgy I can think of that isn't just ruin/harmony/(trell?) communicating, the process involves altering a creature at the expense of a victim. I understand that Kelsier is clinically insane, but even he doesn't murder people offhand unless they are lords... and now I've remembered the women the vanishers kidnapped and I really don't like the end of that theory so we're going to stop that thread here.

Heebie-Jeebies aside, We know Kelsier used hemalurgy and is now physical with at least one spike through an eye, and that he survives as a physical being until era 3. My main theory comes from the longevity. We know steel inquisitors have longer lifespans (marsh), but for Kelsier to pull that off, he would have to stab himself with enough spikes to the pint that it would put him firmly under a shards control and I don't think Kelsier would make that decision. I needed a way for Kelsier to be physical, immortal, and independent and the first thing that came to mind is Paalm. Although she's not strictly independent, she had far greater control (or at least she thought she did) than the standard Kandra.

So to get the point (TLDR): I think that Kelsier makes himself into a Kandra by luring a mistraith into the cognitive realm and then spiking himself as a cognitive shadow using a blessing of identity, and having a second spike that is not of harmony or at a bare minimum not of ruin.

 

I know there are quite a few holes in the theory, especially with my limited understanding of kandra blessings and hemalurgy so if anyone has a reason why this is impossible I'd love to hear it.

Edited November 4, 2022 by FearTheAluminumMisting

[StormingTexan he/him]

Not exactly sure how he did it but it appears he was able to recover his bones then I would assume used Hemalurgy similar to a Kandra to posses them. 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

 

[Firesong she/her]

I personally think he somehow placed himself into a Hemalurgic spike, and had someone spike a Kandra or Mistwraith with it, and have him consume his own bones. Given Brandon talked about Kelsier's bones, the fact he has the same appearance, and we know Hemalurgy tears off part of a spiritweb, so it might be possible to do a Cognitive Shadow. 

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linkhyrule5

Huh.

... Kandra are almost literally stapled to their bodies with Hemalurgy - would they count as such, to the in-setting scholars?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they wouldn't. They are beings who have had their souls twisted by Hemalurgy--the soul never left, it's just been messed up. Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count though.

Seems to imply that it can happen. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

Another relevant WoB

 

 

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rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

20 hours ago, FearTheAluminumMisting said:

So to get the point (TLDR): I think that Kelsier makes himself into a Kandra by luring a mistraith into the cognitive realm and then spiking himself as a cognitive shadow using a blessing of identity, and having a second spike that is not of harmony or at a bare minimum not of ruin.

Note that you not only have to explain why he is in a physical body again, but also why he could make the Bands of Mourning. They mean that he is also a full feruchemist, like The Lord Ruler. Medaillions cannot explain that. Neither were there enough feruchemists around to work into spikes, nor would Spook cooperate on that or Sazed allow it.

It would be strange if these feats were unconnected. So I would propose that he did take a mistwraith, but that he is not a Kandra, but turned back into what Mistwraiths by descent are: human feruchemists

[Rashekin he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

nor would Spook cooperate on that or Sazed allow it.

I think with the conversation in SH's epilogue, plus the book on Hemalurgy Spook himself wrote, it's more than obvious that he DID help Kelsier return to the Physical Realm with Hemalurgy.

In Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning there are various parts of said book, and it is noted that Spook was pro-Hemalurgy. Harmony and the Kandras say that he was wrong writing that book, and logically he had to do many experiments with Hemalurgy. Kelsier-mistwraith himself might have been one of his first great experiments.

[Firesong she/her]

That does make sense, Spook is definitely involved.  

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, Rashekin said:

In Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning there are various parts of said book, and it is noted that Spook was pro-Hemalurgy. Harmony and the Kandras say that he was wrong writing that book, and logically he had to do many experiments with Hemalurgy. Kelsier-mistwraith himself might have been one of his first great experiments.

The problem is practical. The bands involve metals that weren't available when Spook helped Kelsier reincarnate. So, yes, hemalurgy explains how Kelsier returned, but nt that he is a feruchemist. Hence the simplest way to explain that is to assume that he was stapled onto a full feruchemist.

[Ixthos he/him]

40 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem is practical. The bands involve metals that weren't available when Spook helped Kelsier reincarnate. So, yes, hemalurgy explains how Kelsier returned, but nt that he is a feruchemist. Hence the simplest way to explain that is to assume that he was stapled onto a full feruchemist.

You know, it just occurred to me now, but mistwraiths are all descended from full Feruchemists, and as Hemalurgy affects connections, might it not be possible for a mistwraith to be spiked in such a way that it "reconnected" with its ancestral power, granting the mistwraith the power it would have had if its line hadn't been transformed ... which could also play into the idea of the Set kidnapping descendants of Spook, to try to hack any connection the may have to him.

[Edit] ... aaaaaand I just saw you made that same (or similar) observation earlier in the thread. Never mind. My take - he is a fullborn kandra now, and that same technique is something the Set wants to exploit, at least in terms of ancestor hacking.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Ixthos

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Ixthos said:

[Edit] ... aaaaaand I just saw you made that same (or similar) observation earlier in the thread. Never mind. My take - he is a fullborn kandra now, and that same technique is something the Set wants to exploit, at least in terms of ancestor hacking.

Now that you made me think about it, this has implications. Kelsier may have some mental issues, but he is not an idiot. Hemalurgy is prone to errors. He would not use himself as the first test subject. There must be prototypes, if you will. And they will have descendants. They will be feruchemists to a degree, if they stayed segregated from the general population.

[Ixthos he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Now that you made me think about it, this has implications. Kelsier may have some mental issues, but he is not an idiot. Hemalurgy is prone to errors. He would not use himself as the first test subject. There must be prototypes, if you will. And they will have descendants. They will be feruchemists to a degree, if they stayed segregated from the general population.

I like the way you think  the question is, where would those descendants be, and would they still be mistwraiths/kandra, or transformed into humans?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

31 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I like the way you think  the question is, where would those descendants be, and would they still be mistwraiths/kandra, or transformed into humans?

Kandra copying humans a almost indistinguishable from the real thing. That should also involve reproduction. Hence they would be human, in fact human feruchemists.

Let's spin the yarn to completion. Their ancestors would be Cognitive Shadows colloquially also easily referred to as ghosts. Now we need to assume that blood does not mean the literal stuff in a circulatory system, but the bloodline. Here we are.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Oltux72
grammatical error

[Bragtown]

Hear me out. Kelsier is running around again in his body after dying. And who is he running around with? The one person we have cannonically seen resurrect someone - Wan ShaiLu. Personal opinion - his eye spike contains the soul stamp.

[Kitch]

We already have an example of something from the cognitive realm being brought into the physical and physical....bits....being created.  My guess is that Kelsier did the same thing, but because he uniquely has a connection to something in the physical realm, it actually worked for him. I don't think the kandra are involved at all. 

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Kitch said:

We already have an example of something from the cognitive realm being brought into the physical and physical....bits....being created.  

IMHO, if Kelsier had managed something like that successfully, he would have had his allomancy and hemalurgy would have worked for him. He probably wants to get his hands on Kalak to, among other things, figure out how bodies of the Heralds are created when they return to Roshar. Ishar likely uses this knowledge in his experiments, too.