Most Powerful Magic System

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

Just now, bmcclure7 said:

We don't know he was alone, or in a group or just indirectly responsible, or that he used connection to destroy ashyn. 

Yes, but given the evidence, that's less likely.

Also, there's the fact that Ishar has the ability to steal connection. This means that he basically has access to all magic systems, and can deprive others of them permanently. 

[The First Gem he/him]

41 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Is the question which magic system has the highest power in the physics sense of power being "ability to do work," or is this another of those, "who would win in a fight" threads?

I mean like what of the abilities has the greatest power. Weather it means getting work done or in a fight. I say Hemalurgy because it gives accesses to almost all magic. It’s powerful and versatile.

[The First Gem he/him]

9 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I think a big question in Breaths. There are a lot of things to consider:

• We still don't really know what the God King can do. He is clearly extremely invested and there may be no "limit" to it
• What else can a divine breath do?
• How much art-based future-sight is possible with training and intention?
• To what extent thing like Nightblood count as "the strongest". Awakening can create sentient life which is very very useful.
• What the non-awakening powers might be (memory storage and deletion).
• What other commands are there besides physical manipulation of objects?

So I feel Breaths might be the strongest IF someone gets a hold of a heck of a lot of them and has the knowledge to utilize them correctly. Unlike other magic systems, most people don't innately know what to do with their breaths. 

Hmm…this is interesting. It seems I have underestimated the power breaths have. I forgot about Nightblood who is without a doubt the strongest object in the cosmere. 

[Returned he/him]

Regarding Awakening and its potential, there might even be degrees of power beyond the 10th Heightening. Given that understanding of what is granted by the 10th is already known (or at least strongly suspected) to be incomplete I don't think we can rule it out.

I do think that there are some practical limitations to how many Breaths are going to be out there in the Cosmere and how well people understand how to use them, though. Greater power comes from greater consolidation, and the consolidation needed for the higher levels of power requires a ton of people to be born and then become drabs. Breaths have a high potential for loss in a way that other systems don't. And while you can interconvert other forms of Investiture in a variety of ways it doesn't seem like there is a way to "cheat" extra Breaths into the system (they're Splinters, so you just have to wait for Endowment to dole them out). Those will seriously limit how much knowledge can be developed about using them in ways that don't apply to, say, Aons or Feruchemy.

That's not to say that Awakening isn't or can't be the most powerful system, but rather that we may never know the upper reaches of what it can do short of a Shard just describing them to us.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Returned

[bmcclure7]

9 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Yes, but given the evidence, that's less likely.

Also, there's the fact that Ishar has the ability to steal connection. This means that he basically has access to all magic systems, and can deprive others of them permanently. 

1. What evidence? The only evidence I know of points to division not connection.

2. Like Hemalurgy this useless without another magic system available.  

[The First Gem he/him]

13 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Yes, but given the evidence, that's less likely.

Also, there's the fact that Ishar has the ability to steal connection. This means that he basically has access to all magic systems, and can deprive others of them permanently. 

Are you sure it’s permanent? And he doesn’t have access to any magic system other than Surgebinding he has access to cutting off their connection. Like yea he could block allomancers from Harmony effectively powering them down but he couldn’t connect himself to harmony and get allomancy. I doubt he could steal breaths or power from spikes because that doesn’t have connection to a shard like allomancy and Surgebinding. Ishar is cool but I think your overinflating his power.

[bmcclure7]

8 minutes ago, Hoids Wit said:

I mean like what of the abilities has the greatest power. Weather it means getting work done or in a fight. I say Hemalurgy because it gives accesses to almost all magic. It’s powerful and versatile.

That sounds pretty useless on it's own. I would say that hemalurgy is the weakest because of the high cost and because it can do very little without another magic system present.  

[The First Gem he/him]

3 minutes ago, Returned said:

Regarding Awakening and its potential, there might even be degrees of power beyond the 10th Heightening. Given that understanding of what is granted by the 10th is already known (or at least strongly suspected) to be incomplete I don't think we can rule it out.

I do think that there are some practical limitations to how many Breaths are going to be out there in the Cosmere and how well people understand how to use them, though. Greater power comes from greater consolidation, and the consolidation needed for the higher levels of power requires a ton of people to be born and then become drabs. Breaths have a high potential for loss in a way that other systems don't. And while you can interconvert other forms of Investiture in a variety of ways it doesn't seem like there is a way to "cheat" extra breaths into the system (they're Splinters, so you just have to wait for Endowment to dole them out). Those will seriously limit how much knowledge can be developed about using them in ways that don't apply to, say, Aons or Feruchemy.

That's not to say that Awakening isn't or can't be the most powerful system, but rather that we may never know the upper reaches of what it can do short of a Shard just describing them to us.

I perfectly agree with this.

[Spearguy]

I believe the most powerful form of investiture is old Yolish arts, we know only two of them so far is lightweaving and Microkinesis and from what we know Microkinesis is Cohesion allowed to  mess with atomic bonds. 

[Frustration]

18 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Ishar

Ishar friggin destroyed Ashyn.

And with his honorblade, he can do it again.

Dawnshards we're required to Destroy Ashyn.

 

On compounding I would like to add that Compounding has the exact same power output as Allomancy, it just changes how that power manifests.

[The First Gem he/him]

11 minutes ago, Spearguy said:

I believe the most powerful form of investiture is old Yolish arts, we know only two of them so far is lightweaving and Microkinesis and from what we know Microkinesis is Cohesion allowed to  mess with atomic bonds. 

We have close to no knowledge about the Old Yolish arts so lets rule them out for this conversation.

[Spearguy]

Fair enough, but the point would probably work just as well with unchained Surgebinding, not even specifically bondsmiths.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I think a big question in Breaths. There are a lot of things to consider:

• We still don't really know what the God King can do. He is clearly extremely invested and there may be no "limit" to it
• What else can a divine breath do?
• How much art-based future-sight is possible with training and intention?
• To what extent thing like Nightblood count as "the strongest". Awakening can create sentient life which is very very useful.
• What the non-awakening powers might be (memory storage and deletion).
• What other commands are there besides physical manipulation of objects?

So I feel Breaths might be the strongest IF someone gets a hold of a heck of a lot of them and has the knowledge to utilize them correctly. Unlike other magic systems, most people don't innately know what to do with their breaths. 

Exactly this.  It is my frustration with no real plans for a Nightblood book.   I would be happy with a 20000 word short story at this point showing more awakening.  

As for the WoB I was looking for I found this:

Quote

Questioner

What would happen if somebody used the color from a Stormlight-infused gem to create a BioChromatic entity?

Brandon Sanderson

So I just had this question actually and what we came up with was that would leave behind something that is like a cloudy quartz and is going to make it work not as well for holding Stormlight. That's our answer right now, I'm going to talk to my scientists and see what they think because draining the color from something doesn't just leave it white, or clear, it kind of ruins it, it's gray-ish, it's dun. It clouds. So I think it would ruin things for Stormlight.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

There are a lot more where that came from discussing the importance of color and gems.  

Quote

Questioner

The hair color, is there a link between the hair color in Warbreaker and the hair color in, with, like the Alethi always have black, and I can't remember the other country that always have gold hair coloring?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.  You are noticing something very interesting which was done deliberately.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

With the gemstones, we know that the hue seems to matter more than the rarity. Is that somehow tying in to the colors for Warbreaker, and how that stuff works?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is tying in. Color will be a recurring theme, much as metal will be a recurring theme, as you see different magic systems work. In this case, the color has an affect on the spren and getting a spren trapped in it.

Questioner

So just the color itself?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah the color is the important part. When I was researching Stormlight, I determined that color had to be the point. Because a lot of the gemstones I'm using are molecularly identical.

Questioner

So that was the best way to differentiate?

Brandon Sanderson

So this was the best way to differentiate. But I had already had this as part of the cosmere, that color and the way people perceive color and things like, that were part of it. But getting ten different gemstones that were molecularly different proved to be very difficult and not worth it. If you look, so many of them are just basically the same gemstone with a few impurities. Their crystalline structure is the same.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

Quote

ArsenoPyrite

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gem? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements--in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron). Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

In these WoBs we actually see that color and the perception of what a material is has effect on the magic.  This could likely be crossed over to metals as well.  I won't stretch as far as saying that once ingested a metal might be unrecognizable but if pewter has a green tint to it and gold has that gold appearance... Iron being darker than steel.... these little changes could set up similar difficulties for metallic arts users that it would for soulcasters.  

With color seeming to be a theme that is followed carefully (even characters hair colors) I have high high hopes that awakening is going to play an even bigger role than what our minds can imagine.  

Also... when Kal and Vasher have their little fight I 100% think Vasher was toying with him.  The awakened cloth could have ripped Kal apart with ranged awakening if Vasher had wanted it to. 

Once someone breaks the 9th heightening barrier awakeners are pretty OP.  10th heightening and its draining everything to white probably acts as a better leeching device and silent awakening is insanely OP.  (Again ripping people apart without then knowing where or who is making it happen is crazy... Szeth could have assassinated all of his targets from rooms away by thought at 10th heightening.  

I loved that scene where everything turns white as around that dude as he was about to stab Siri only to be grabbed and tossed like a ragdoll along with all his goons... only a few paragraphs of a brief view of someone using breaths who had such little understanding... Sus did that with only his instinctive awakening and, had he known, even his tongue cut out wouldn't have stopped him from single handedly destroying a hall full of enemies.   

I remember Vasher awakening clothes on a dead body to have them use it as a meat shield and fight beside him.  

 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

29 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. What evidence? The only evidence I know of points to division not connection.

2. Like Hemalurgy this useless without another magic system available.  

Not quite. Bondsmiths also have access to other tricks, like Tension and Windrunner-level Adhesion. Bondsmithing is like Hemalurgy, but better.

[Returned he/him]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

On compounding I would like to add that Compounding has the exact same power output as Allomancy, it just changes how that power manifests.

Well, sure, but at the same time Compounding allows the power to manifest in very useful ways, and also is recursive via mundane material. It's the difference between Wayne's healing and Miles' ability to set off a stick of dynamite in his hand and not care. Renarin might be able to do something similarly amazing, but only if he's already got the Stormlight in him.

If you can compound you've got a direct pipeline to Preservation that will provide you with all the power you can figure out how to use (in ways that Feruchemy can facilitate). Provided, of course, that you've got a bunch of the right metals around. That's what makes it so impressive, not that a compounder can get X units of Investiture per gram of metal.

[SteelBagel]

Well If we're going with single magic system with no crossover magics, allomancy, feruchemy and most surgebinding is out. We've never seen the upper limit of Awakening, since we only see a few minutes of the god king, and he's probably not very good at awakening, since that was mere moments after he got his powers. And theoretically you could get even more breaths than that to get even more hightenings. Hemalurgy is powerful, but it's extremely hard to use, and nobody is really good at it. Also, overuse opens you up to mental effects. Plus it seems pretty limited as for what you can do without copying other magic systems or going overboard in spikes. Bondsmithing is also pretty powerful, but I just don't think we understand it well enough to justifying it to rank it #1. Aons are super versatile and powerful, but region-locked. It really depends on where the battle is taking place and who it is fighting, and how well they understand their powers.

[The First Gem he/him]

12 minutes ago, Returned said:

Well, sure, but at the same time Compounding allows the power to manifest in very useful ways, and also is recursive via mundane material. It's the difference between Wayne's healing and Miles' ability to set off a stick of dynamite in his hand and not care. Renarin might be able to do something similarly amazing, but only if he's already got the Stormlight in him.

If you can compound you've got a direct pipeline to Preservation that will provide you with all the power you can figure out how to use (in ways that Feruchemy can facilitate). Provided, of course, that you've got a bunch of the right metals around. That's what makes it so impressive, not that a compounder can get X units of Investiture per gram of metal.

Exactly. And this is why I like Hemalurgy. It grants compounding.

[The First Gem he/him]

1 minute ago, SteelBagel said:

Well If we're going with single magic system with no crossover magics, allomancy, feruchemy and most surgebinding is out. We've never seen the upper limit of Awakening, since we only see a few minutes of the god king, and he's probably not very good at awakening, since that was mere moments after he got his powers. And theoretically you could get even more breaths than that to get even more hightenings. Hemalurgy is powerful, but it's extremely hard to use, and nobody is really good at it. Also, overuse opens you up to mental effects. Plus it seems pretty limited as for what you can do without copying other magic systems or going overboard in spikes. Bondsmithing is also pretty powerful, but I just don't think we understand it well enough to justifying it to rank it #1. Aons are super versatile and powerful, but region-locked. It really depends on where the battle is taking place and who it is fighting, and how well they understand their powers.

Where not ruling about Allomancy Feruchemy, and surgbinding. They deserve to be in the disccusion. 

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, SteelBagel said:

Well If we're going with single magic system with no crossover magics, allomancy, feruchemy and most surgebinding is out. 

How so?

[SteelBagel]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How so?

Allomancy is out because without compounding, it has a cap. there's only so hard you can push, so much pewter you can flare. Vin or Elend are about the max you can get using Allomancy alone and nothing else, and they are weaker than someone like susebron or ishar. Feruchemy stronger, but it has limits on duration. When you get to the point where you start to equal stuff like an elantrian fireball or a dustbringer Division surge, or stormlight Healing, you're going to run out of juice and lose the endurance battle without compounding.  And most surgebinding is just not versatile enough. This is assuming you only get 2 and haven't bonded like 5 different spren. 2 surges can't do as much, and most surges aren't as good as other methods of doing their same deal elsewhere. For example, transportation & gravitation don't give as much mobility as elantrian teleportation. Cohesion and Tension don't shape as well as forgery. Nothing we know of in surgebinding has the range and utility of Awakening afaik. It just gets beat out by the top levels of other stuff, although I think most surgebinders are on average some of the most powerful magic users in the cosmere.

[HSuperLee]

2 hours ago, Hoids Wit said:

I mean like what of the abilities has the greatest power. Weather it means getting work done or in a fight. I say Hemalurgy because it gives accesses to almost all magic. It’s powerful and versatile.

My question was me attempting to understand what exactly it is we're comparing here, because the word power can mean many things. Mind control and super-strength would both be considered powerful, but for different reasons. One gives you the ability to influence people, the other to change your environment. I'm trying to determine whether we're comparing apples or oranges, because otherwise this conversation will proceed where everyone is making different arguments based on the assumptions they're reading into it the question rather than the intent behind the question. If you're saying this is a discussion of what ability has the greatest power for any given definition of power, there is no answer. Its like asking who is the best athlete out of a bunch of gold medalist Olympians. They're all undeniably great athletes, but because they specialize in different things you can't create this broad category of "athlete" and assume everyone has the same list of criteria they're comparing against. 

I asked what exactly do we mean by power in this discussion and you said power. That's not a meaningful answer.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

38 minutes ago, SteelBagel said:

Allomancy is out because without compounding, it has a cap. there's only so hard you can push, so much pewter you can flare. Vin or Elend are about the max you can get using Allomancy alone and nothing else, and they are weaker than someone like susebron or ishar. Feruchemy stronger, but it has limits on duration. When you get to the point where you start to equal stuff like an elantrian fireball or a dustbringer Division surge, or stormlight Healing, you're going to run out of juice and lose the endurance battle without compounding.  And most surgebinding is just not versatile enough. This is assuming you only get 2 and haven't bonded like 5 different spren. 2 surges can't do as much, and most surges aren't as good as other methods of doing their same deal elsewhere. For example, transportation & gravitation don't give as much mobility as elantrian teleportation. Cohesion and Tension don't shape as well as forgery. Nothing we know of in surgebinding has the range and utility of Awakening afaik. It just gets beat out by the top levels of other stuff, although I think most surgebinders are on average some of the most powerful magic users in the cosmere.

Slap a set of living plate and a living blade on any powerset and it becomes way more powerful.  For that fact alone I think any radiant of 5th ideal and likely the 4th ideal could be in the running.... 

As others have asked.  Most powerful system is kind of hard to guage and specific answers will fall into specific criteria.  

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

 

As others have asked.  Most powerful system is kind of hard to guage and specific answers will fall into specific criteria.  

 

Agreed. Most Powerful isn't the same as most versatile or most deadly. For example, stealth might be more useful that all out flare. Or longevity may be more useful than glass cannon power. How much does portability play into it? 

 It is hard to say. But if I average these, Awakening seems to be the best. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by teknopathetic

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

Allomancy is out because without compounding, it has a cap. there's only so hard you can push, so much pewter you can flare. Vin or Elend are about the max you can get using Allomancy alone and nothing else, and they are weaker than someone like susebron or ishar. 

Considering we aren't factoring for rarity just burn more Lerasium.

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

And most surgebinding is just not versatile enough. 

I wish to contest this statement in every possible way.

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

For example, transportation & gravitation don't give as much mobility as elantrian teleportation. 

Gravitation allows you to remain in the air, and is much faster over short distances, as well as giving momentum to weapons. And transportation can act as teleportation, though whether Radiants can use it that way is up for debate.

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

Cohesion and Tension don't shape as well as forgery.

 That's true but they are far faster and easier to use.

4 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

Nothing we know of in surgebinding has the range and utility of Awakening afaik.

Every order except maybe Bondsmith has at least one surge they can use at a distance. Most of them going up to line of sight.

Division is ranged, Gravitation is ranged, progression is ranged, Abrasion effectively makes you ranged, Illumination moves at the speed of light, Transformation is ranged, Transportation is ranged, Cohesion is ranged and so on.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Agreed. Most Powerful isn't the same as most versatile or most deadly. For example, stealth might be more useful that all out flare. Or longevity may be more useful than glass cannon power. How much does portability play into it? 

 It is hard to say. But if I average these, Awakening seems to be the best. 

Absolutely the way I view it.  Pure investiture and the ability to replicate other systems I would say awakening is near the top... which is crazy since it is (as a system) only net neutral.  Given other systems that are net positive exist it could well be argued that investiture wise there are more powerful systems but those systems pull investiture from other sources to use it.  Breaths are innate and so limited that learning the upper limits is super challenging.  

The fact that the scholars were replicating (it would seem) other systems in their testing of commands says a lot about the limits of biochromatic breath.  Not that it isn't possible to replicate some other magics but that the correct command and imagery hasn't been seen or used.  Perhaps there is a command to mend the awakener and offer a form healing.   Perhaps there is a command to help someone fly... we saw the ribbons carry awakeners but it is not the same as gravitation or steel/ Iron allomancy.  I do think there is a so far unused strength in awakening in the form of draining color from other systems energy sources. 

As for the 10 surges.  All offer a powerful end positive result.  It is difficult to argue a end neutral or end negative system vs an end positive one except in how invested the users actually are.  One breath makes your average Nalthis citizen more invested and capable than any other base citizen from any other system.  A breath of stormlight makes the average squire more dangerous than that Nalthis person.  The only difference here is that everyone on Nalthis has access to that and they can invest in eachother where as Squires are even rare on Roshar.  

The biggest argument against awakening as a system is that to make the most powerful awakener you have to make 50000 drabs.  And if that godking gets killed in battle that single death might as well have been a kill worth half that in men. 

Someone with access to 10 surges would probably be in contention with the godking and a fullborn for the most powerful being in the cosmere.  I will say in terms of there always being a godking and not always being someone with access to 10 surges or a fullborn Nalthis at any given time likely has the single most powerful non shard being in the cosmere.  Limited by education on how to use it but the potential in Nalthis is on average always higher than other places.  The times someone has access to fullborn powers are more limited (although the bands could change that) but those powers still require outside fuel where the godkings do not.  Likewise the times there is access to all 10 surges on one person is far more limited than the godkings existence.  You could argue that a person with all 10 surges has access to infinite stormlight and I would have to submit that that being is the most powerful, however it is so rare that systemwide I don't know that it makes a difference as system as a whole.  

World vs world right now I think Nalthis has a really good shot in the numbers game... plus if every kill you make you can raise up the dead it could end up a zombie army vs everyone.  The minute nalthis falls behind they are in deep trouble though.  But so long as they keep numbers advantage they can really put the hurt on other systems.