Most Powerful Magic System

[The First Gem]

So I’ve been studying the power of the various magic system and while Surgebinding and Elantrian Aons are cool I am under the impression that there are 3 Canadites for the strongest. Hemalurgy, Compunding, and Forgery. But I wanted to her other input and discussion. 

[Brgst13]

I have 4 points against the choices you made:

1. Compounding is a combination of 2 magic systems.

2. You are right on Hemalurgy

3. Aons can be used like computer code.

4. Bondsmiths unchained are insanely powerful.

[The Bookwyrm]

I think it's hard to label any specific magic system as the "strongest", because each has strengths and weaknesses and work differently in different situations. While Hemalurgy has an incredible range of applications and combinations, on its own, you can't really consider it "powerful" because it needs other magic to work. Forgery (and all Selish magic, really) can do some amazing things, but it stops working the farther you get from it's geographic source of power, so labeling it the "strongest" would only work based on location. Surgebinding is powerful in that the Surges themselves hold great power and that the investiture needed to power it is easily accessible, but it also has many restrictions to make sure you aren't using it all over the place.

Summarized, whichever magic is the "strongest" is going to depend on where you are, what you have, who's using it, and what or who you're up against. Brandon Sanderson has made sure to limit and balance every one of his magic systems in clever ways, which ensures that one isn't necessarily stronger than the other.

[The First Gem]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

4. Bondsmiths unchained are insanely powerful.

What’s so special about a bond smith unchained? Like I know dalinar is powerful but other that opening that perpindicular idk.

[The First Gem]

15 minutes ago, The Bookwyrm said:

I think it's hard to label any specific magic system as the "strongest", because each has strengths and weaknesses and work differently in different situations. While Hemalurgy has an incredible range of applications and combinations, on its own, you can't really consider it "powerful" because it needs other magic to work. Forgery (and all Selish magic, really) can do some amazing things, but it stops working the farther you get from it's geographic source of power, so labeling it the "strongest" would only work based on location. Surgebinding is powerful in that the Surges themselves hold great power and that the investiture needed to power it is easily accessible, but it also has many restrictions to make sure you aren't using it all over the place.

Summarized, whichever magic is the "strongest" is going to depend on where you are, what you have, who's using it, and what or who you're up against. Brandon Sanderson has made sure to limit and balance every one of his magic systems in clever ways, which ensures that one isn't necessarily stronger than the other.

I have a quick question. So if you store selfish connection in a metal mind and tap it while forging or Aons would you be able to use them? Or is that not how this connection works?

 

[offer]

 

15 minutes ago, Hoids Wit said:

What’s so special about a bond smith unchained? Like I know dalinar is powerful but other that opening that perpindicular idk.

Dalinar does not know to use most of his abilities.

Ishar Showed that a bondsmith has a lot more potential - conecting the windrunners to the ground basically defeated them almost immeadiatelly. and since he can steal Dalinar bond to the Stormfather he probably can do a lot more powerful stuff.

[The Bookwyrm]

1 hour ago, Hoids Wit said:

I have a quick question. So if you store selfish connection in a metal mind and tap it while forging or Aons would you be able to use them? Or is that not how this connection works?

 

That...might work. Maybe?

I think using Connection feruchemy in some way would allow you to do this, but I don't know how. It's probably a lot more complicated than what you have here. But it should be possible.

[Returned]

I'll echo what others have mentioned, that "strongest" is an imprecise term and hard to evaluate among Cosmere magics. On Sel, or with the geographic limitation of AonDor overcome, the Aons allow an Elantrian to do pretty much anything they can imagine, as long as they can figure out the right permutation of symbols. That's a pretty big qualification, though-- that sort of flexibility isn't going to be available to very many people, if any.

But in the spirit of the post I'm going to add in a vote for Feruchemy. It has some significant drawbacks and limitations of its own, but it works anywhere and allows a Feruchemist to transcend their own limitations. Like, you could labor over the right sequence and details of a string of Aons, or you could store data in copper and mental speed in zinc and then bring them to bear specifically on that problem when you find it convenient. Further, some attributes that a Feruchemist can store allow them to manipulate some of the key underlying properties of the Cosmere. Fortune, especially, can give you a powerful edge in any scenario without any other type of preparation. There are also implications and possibilities of being able to store Investiture in nicrosil which we don't yet understand; it may grant some ability to access other magic systems without the same constraints Hemalurgy requires.

And obviously a Feruchemist who has access to compounding would be able to enhance the benefits of their power to a ridiculous degree while also avoiding most of the downsides, though that's not properly a feature of Feruchemy alone.

 

1 hour ago, Hoids Wit said:

I have a quick question. So if you store selfish connection in a metal mind and tap it while forging or Aons would you be able to use them? Or is that not how this connection works?

It's not 100% clear how, exactly, the Sel-specific Connection works (there are serious implications to Dominion and Devotion being trapped, without Vessels, in the cognitive realm, which isn't necessarily permanent), but I don't think that this method would be effective. The only Connection we've seen stored Feruchemically reaches out to Connect you to where you happen to be with marginal touches of where you're from, so Connection to Sel/Elantris may not be something you can store and access in the way you describe. A very skilled Connection Feruchemist may be able to do more.

But at the same time we've got WoBs (I think, I don't recall the specifics offhand) detailing that certain groups are experimenting with overcoming the geographic limitations of Elantrian magic and implying that there are ways to get around it, at least in part.

1 hour ago, Hoids Wit said:

What’s so special about a bond smith unchained? Like I know dalinar is powerful but other that opening that perpindicular idk.

Connection is one of the most important elements of the Cosmere, particularly for magic. Use of any Cosmere magic system relies on Connection to a Shard (possible, practical exceptions, partial or total, are Endowment and Autonomy, given the nature of their Shards). For example, if you're an Allomancer and someone cuts off your Connection to Preservation, then no more Allomancy for you. And if someone shoehorns in that same Connection to Preservation, then maybe you're instantly an Allomancer. If your bond to a spren is severed, then no more Surgebinding or ability to use Stormlight at all. Plus lots of other, more mundane Connections (like the example given by @offer of Windrunners being stuck to the ground) offer a lot of flexibility for the creative Bondsmith.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Returned

[NerdyAarakocra]

2 hours ago, Hoids Wit said:

What’s so special about a bond smith unchained? Like I know dalinar is powerful but other that opening that perpindicular idk.

Ishar

Ishar friggin destroyed Ashyn.

And with his honorblade, he can do it again.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Lord Ruler > Everything and everyone, except maybe shards.  No printer, just fax.

[The First Gem]

2 hours ago, The Bookwyrm said:

 

43 minutes ago, Returned said:

I'll echo what others have mentioned, that "strongest" is an imprecise term and hard to evaluate among Cosmere magics. On Sel, or with the geographic limitation of AonDor overcome, the Aons allow an Elantrian to do pretty much anything they can imagine, as long as they can figure out the right permutation of symbols. That's a pretty big qualification, though-- that sort of flexibility isn't going to be available to very many people, if any.

But in the spirit of the post I'm going to add in a vote for Feruchemy. It has some significant drawbacks and limitations of its own, but it works anywhere and allows a Feruchemist to transcend their own limitations. Like, you could labor over the right sequence and details of a string of Aons, or you could store data in copper and mental speed in zinc and then bring them to bear specifically on that problem when you find it convenient. Further, some attributes that a Feruchemist can store allow them to manipulate some of the key underlying properties of the Cosmere. Fortune, especially, can give you a powerful edge in any scenario without any other type of preparation. There are also implications and possibilities of being able to store Investiture in nicrosil which we don't yet understand; it may grant some ability to access other magic systems without the same constraints Hemalurgy requires.

And obviously a Feruchemist who has access to compounding would be able to enhance the benefits of their power to a ridiculous degree while also avoiding most of the downsides, though that's not properly a feature of Feruchemy alone.

 

It's not 100% clear how, exactly, the Sel-specific Connection works (there are serious implications to Dominion and Devotion being trapped, without Vessels, in the cognitive realm, which isn't necessarily permanent), but I don't think that this method would be effective. The only Connection we've seen stored Feruchemically reaches out to Connect you to where you happen to be with marginal touches of where you're from, so Connection to Sel/Elantris may not be something you can store and access in the way you describe. A very skilled Connection Feruchemist may be able to do more.

But at the same time we've got WoBs (I think, I don't recall the specifics offhand) detailing that certain groups are experimenting with overcoming the geographic limitations of Elantrian magic and implying that there are ways to get around it, at least in part.

Connection is one of the most important elements of the Cosmere, particularly for magic. Use of any Cosmere magic system relies on Connection to a Shard (possible, practical exceptions, partial or total, are Endowment and Autonomy, given the nature of their Shards). For example, if you're an Allomancer and someone cuts off your Connection to Preservation, then no more Allomancy for you. And if someone shoehorns in that same Connection to Preservation, then maybe you're instantly an Allomancer. If your bond to a spren is severed, then no more Surgebinding or ability to use Stormlight at all. Plus lots of other, more mundane Connections (like the example given by @offer of Windrunners being stuck to the ground) offer a lot of flexibility for the creative Bondsmith.

What your saying about Ferchemy is why I think that Hemalurgy is so powerful. You can steel Feruchemy and allomancy effectively making you a compounder. The human body has somewhere between 200-300 bind points to put a Hemalurgic spike. You could, with a consenting Spren, steal bondsmith surgebinding and Elantrian power. But the biggest problem I can find with Hemalurgy and the danger of a linchpin spike and the danger of being controller by shards. Notably Harmony and powerful soothers and rioters. Again though it can be combatted with metal minds of mental fortitude and determination.

the science of connection and Fortune is widely unexplored. I believe a practiced Feruchemist with more knowledge could use Connection metalminds to store Connection to say Elantris to temporarily use the Aons. You could compound too to make it stronger.

[The First Gem]

3 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Lord Ruler > Everything and everyone, except maybe shards.  No printer, just fax.

Haha yea. This is the power of compunding which can be achieved and more with Hemalurgy.

[The First Gem]

35 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Ishar

Ishar friggin destroyed Ashyn.

And with his honorblade, he can do it again.

What…where do we learn this

[The First Gem]

51 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Ishar

Ishar friggin destroyed Ashyn.

And with his honorblade, he can do it again.

I just spent 20 minutes looking over bondsmiths, Ashyn, and Ishar and found absolutely nothing. I even looked through Connection and couldnt find anything.

[NerdyAarakocra]

1 hour ago, Hoids Wit said:

What…where do we learn this

 

1 hour ago, Hoids Wit said:

I just spent 20 minutes looking over bondsmiths, Ashyn, and Ishar and found absolutely nothing. I even looked through Connection and couldnt find anything.

The Stormfather tells Dalinar that he was the first person that Odium tricked into experimenting with the Surges, and that he was largely responsible for the destruction of Ashyn, although he can't be completely blamed. We also know from both the Stormfather and Odium that a Bondsmith unchained has the power of the gods, with none of the limitations.

Honorblades give you KR powers without the limitations.

Ishar knows how to use Bondsmith powers incredibly well.

He is also insane.

Yeah.

[The First Gem]

I still don’t get what’s so powerful about it.  I know Connection is important and powerful but it in Surgebinding. I don’t understand how it basically made a planet uninhabitable 

[StanLemon]

It's been implied that the destruction of Ashyn involved a Dawnshard, which vastly enhances the use of Investiture. So that's not exactly a good example to use

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I feel like awakening has no love so I will drop my thoughts on it here...  

As with everything else we can't really begin to know until we see it and nothing is more sad than RAFO cards that aren't even planned to be written for 10+ years to come.... 

That said I think awakening and the entire Nalthis breath system has the potential to produce the most powerful and invested beings in the cosmere short of shards.  

The Godking could simply nonverbal command every shred of clothing on a person to constrict them and break all their bones or tear them apart... from range without anyone knowing who did it... (okay we do have the issue of massive glowing aura to get around but I don't see why you couldn't awaken a cloak to hide your aura or simply suppress your aura like Vasher was shown to do).  

An army of invested stone golems.... investiture resists even shardblades... 

We haven't seen a ton of healing from Nalthis which is the only thing I can see keeping them back but returned have a weird relationship with identity that allows them to do some pretty bonkers stuff.  Regrowing hair and choosing how to look could well be a hint at potential healing powers for those who explore the powers further.  

Plus breath is totally portable throughout the cosmere and to those who know about it... is a very very valuable thing.  How many infused gems would someone be willing to trade for a single breath or even the first heightening?  Vasher knows how to utilize stormlight to fuel his divine breath as well which means that those stones could be valuable for other uses other than simply paying for other things.  Money will be very valuable in a future of more tech and infused gemstones could well fuel fabrials as well.  Trading some breath for medallions or spikes wouldn't be out of the question.  

Biochromatic breath and awakening is the apex system of flexibility and because every person born on Nalthis adds more the further we get down the timeline the more we will see of higher heightening awakeners.  There is no real ceiling for biochromatic breath. 

Weaknesses of awakening are, as I stated, the more powerful you are the more you stick out until you develope ways to suppress and hide what you are.  No real healing and very little personal physical enhancement outside of your awakened items.  Other than those glaring issues I don't see many systems touching how utterly saturated with investiture you can become and creating perfect armies of indestructible stone would make for a powerful system. 

[The First Gem]

Awakening is cool and all but most awakeners would lose to a feruchemist or allomancy. And Hemalurgy can steal Divine Breaths from returned. It might even be able to steal normal breaths. The GodKing is an exception. Most people in the cosmere would lose to him by his breaths. Not even to mention his golems.

[HSuperLee]

Is the question which magic system has the highest power in the physics sense of power being "ability to do work," or is this another of those, "who would win in a fight" threads?

[bmcclure7]

17 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Ishar

Ishar friggin destroyed Ashyn.

And with his honorblade, he can do it again.

We don't have enough information to say that yet.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

7 minutes ago, Hoids Wit said:

Awakening is cool and all but most awakeners would lose to a feruchemist or allomancy. And Hemalurgy can steal Divine Breaths from returned. It might even be able to steal normal breaths. The GodKing is an exception. Most people in the cosmere would lose to him by his breaths. Not even to mention his golems.

The godking is why I mention awakening as the most powerful.  Nalthis has more potential than other places.  The average person is more invested than the average person from anywhere else.   The average magic user may be weaker than the average magic user in other places.  I am sure there are more mistborn and feruchemists than there are 5th heightening or above.  There will be more 4th ideal radiants than any of the others but they all compete for stormlight and they are limited in location more than other systems.  

Nalthis gets better and better with age.  Every year that nalthis has a higher birthrate than mortality rate the gross system strength goes up.  That doesn't even count if you have people who believe in keeping their breaths as a legacy for their prosperity.  

We don't know how far into the 10th heightening susberon was either.  The gift was 50000 breaths.  He was collecting 2-4 per week as well as other godkings before him for hundreds of years.  There could have easily been enough breaths to create 2 or 3 10th heightening awakeners in the gift when he handed it back to Vasher.  

I believe I saw a thing about draining color from gemstones and even metal as well.  I will look for the WOB on that.  It would be very interesting if the usage of awakening could drain a spheres ability to hold stormlight or a metals purity for the metallic arts.  

[NerdyAarakocra]

19 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

We don't have enough information to say that yet.

See my above post.

[bmcclure7]

9 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

See my above post.

We don't know he was alone, or in a group or just indirectly responsible, or that he used connection to destroy ashyn. 

[teknopathetic]

I think a big question in Breaths. There are a lot of things to consider:

• We still don't really know what the God King can do. He is clearly extremely invested and there may be no "limit" to it with ample supply. 
• What else can a divine breath do?
• How much art-based future-sight is possible with training and intention? Are other future-sights possible?
• To what extent are thing like Nightblood considered the "the strongest". Awakening can create sentient life which is very very useful.
• What are the non-awakening powers/uses? (memory storage and deletion for example).
• What other commands are there besides physical manipulation of objects?
• What do the Tears of Edgli do? Are there amplification effects when using them?
• What are the limits on shapeshifting?
• What about the Divine Locks? Are other things possible? Could these lineage endowments be expanded? 
• Breath can be given to anyone and used anywhere which is very powerful
  • Breaths can grant ageless-immortality AND has built-in ways to prevent immortality-insanity 
  • How might breaths effect other magic systems?

So I feel Breaths might be the strongest IF someone gets a hold of a heck of a lot of them and has the knowledge to utilize them correctly. Unlike other magic systems, most people don't innately know what to do with their breaths and breaths seems to have only been "a thing" for 500 years. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by teknopathetic