[Discuss] Nahel bond and Honorblades

[SpinningSky he/him]

Hey everyone,
I wanted to share some thoughts I've been having, I don't have a theory to propose, but I'd like to spark a discussion, or be corrected if there's something I misunderstood.

It always bothered me that the Honorblades and the powers they grant are inferior to what can be achieved with the Nahel bond.
My reasoning is quite simple, if the Nahel bond and the surgebinding granted by spren are an imitation of what Honor did, I don't see how it could surpass his work.

Furthermore, tell me if this was explained somewhere, but where did spren get the idea for sharadplate, if they're imitating the honorblades and there is no such thing as honorplate?

One counterargument to this line of reasoning if of course that the Heralds where fueled directly by Honor when he was alive and thus much more powerful, but then again we can't really trace a good parallal between using a shard tied to a deadeyes, and and honorblade tied to a dead Honor which still grants surges.

I think we'll be finding out more about Honorblades in the 5th book, and I kinda think there's something fishy going on.

Opinions?

[EmTheElsecaller]

I think maybe the honorblades were much more powerful when wielded by their Herald than someone else? I feel like I read it somewhere but I could be wrong.

EDIT: From that WOB by @StormingTexan it appears I was wrong. Sorry for any confusion

Edited September 6, 2022 by Elsecalling…

[StormingTexan he/him]

In one way though Honorblades are superior to Shardblades. They do not require a person to bond a spren. So in that way I am not sure I would say they are inferior. Carrying multiple Honorblades can grant a user more than two surges again not inferior. We know that they are not as efficient with use of stormlight but then again they were made for Heralds that had a direct source so in this regard they may seem inferior now that Honor is dead but not when they were created. The one big advantage Shardblades have is they are not locked in to a single form when bonded to a KR so I do agree that is better although I think more of an unintentional bonus due to being bonded with a live spren. 

 

Also Brandon kind of described the Honorblades as "gen 1" and Shardblades as "gen 2" with NB being "gen3". So I kind of think of this like everything else we see slight improvements/upgrades as new generations are developed. 

 

Quote

 

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

 

As far as Shardplate the Heralds would not have needed this since they die and come back. Not so much for KR and I assume the spren came up with this to further protect their bonded KR as we know this was really tough for the spren when their bonded KR would die. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

21 hours ago, SpinningSky said:

It always bothered me that the Honorblades and the powers they grant are inferior to what can be achieved with the Nahel bond.
My reasoning is quite simple, if the Nahel bond and the surgebinding granted by spren are an imitation of what Honor did, I don't see how it could surpass his work.

To the spren they are an imitation. To Honor it was probably the other way round. He saw the animals of Roshar. He knew things about the Cosmere. He knew about Aethers at least. Bonds to grant powers are not limited to Roshar. His innovation was making an artificial spren to make a bond, not the bond. They are not the real thing. I guess he found creating a sapient creature to be used in an involuntary bond dishonorable.

[SpinningSky he/him]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

To the spren they are an imitation. To Honor it was probably the other way round. He saw the animals of Roshar. He knew things about the Cosmere. He knew about Aethers at least. Bonds to grant powers are not limited to Roshar. His innovation was making an artificial spren to make a bond, not the bond. They are not the real thing. I guess he found creating a sapient creature to be used in an involuntary bond dishonorable.

I really like this interpretation of it actually!

Not sure about the last bit about bonding spren being dishonorable, but if we assume that the Nahel bond was a thing that worked in the cosmere before Honor, which does make sense, then the whole thing fits nicely

[Proletariat]

Heralds have (had?) a direct connection to Honor to power the surges, so when using their blades the inefficiency doesn't matter because they can just do kind of unlimited levels of stuff with it. I'd think of it a little bit like the Heralds are all bonded to Honor in the way radiants are bonded to their spren

[kenthomas261]

I think another thing to keep in mind about the honorblades is that honor was granting power to the heralds that was in the same realm as the power they just used to destroy their old planet. The planet they fled and in the process brought Odium. It's very possible that the limitations in the honorblades were a direct result of trying to limit the power that these people could manifest. Then, when the nahel bonds with the different spren started to manifest, there was a system in place to allow more power to come out because it required this bond that has the limiting factors built in. Instead of limiting the power available the same way, the bonds limit the intent that the power can be used for. 

A windrunner couldn't do what Szeth did in TWOK.Kaladin almost lost his powers just by standing by while an assassination plot was happening. I think the limitations of power based on intent is a far more limiting thing than needing a little more stormlight.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 minutes ago, kenthomas261 said:

I think another thing to keep in mind about the honorblades is that honor was granting power to the heralds that was in the same realm as the power they just used to destroy their old planet. The planet they fled and in the process brought Odium. It's very possible that the limitations in the honorblades were a direct result of trying to limit the power that these people could manifest.

That opens a can of worms. In fact why do they have weapons at all? Were they supposed to fight on Braize? If so, a destroyed Braize would have been in Honor's interest. For this to make sense I see no alternative to Honor expecting the Oathpact to fail. So why bother at all?

[kenthomas261]

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That opens a can of worms. In fact why do they have weapons at all? Were they supposed to fight on Braize? If so, a destroyed Braize would have been in Honor's interest. For this to make sense I see no alternative to Honor expecting the Oathpact to fail. So why bother at all?

It's my understanding that they have weapons because that's what they came to honor asking for. They came to honor asking for access to the surges they had on Ashyn so that they could fight against the Fused in the first desolation. We don't know if the honorblades work on Braize because we don't know if they have access to Honor/Stormlight there. But I think the idea was that Honor set up the oathpact with Odium and the Heralds with the idea that Odium/Fused would end up stuck on Braize forever because the agreement was that the Heralds would be tormented there forever for the sake of peace on Roshar. But Honor (according to the stormfather, so unreliable source) couldn't understand Heralds breaking their promise and giving into the torture. So Honor may have saw it as a way to push Odium from Roshar? Or the stormfather has too limited a view of what Honor thought and maybe more of this was a plan than we know currently. 

I think the Intent of Honor has a really hard time NOT making oaths with people in trouble coming to it with honorable intent. So when the Heralds come and say "We are dying! We need the powers of our past. We will go through the Proving Day challenges and will sacrifice ourselves to the benefit of all Roshar" the power may be too enticed for the vessel to say no, no matter how much they know it may bite them in the future.

 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

The reason is that Honor wanted to limit surgebinding powers, so he created the honorblade to be weak, spren bonds were also originally restricted in power(we know that modern Radiants are more powerful than those of old), but then Honor died, and the spren lost their restrictions. The honorblades we're not able to change though, because they weren't "new" bonds.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Ta'veren Kaladin

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That opens a can of worms. In fact why do they have weapons at all? Were they supposed to fight on Braize? If so, a destroyed Braize would have been in Honor's interest. For this to make sense I see no alternative to Honor expecting the Oathpact to fail. So why bother at all?

This is a big mystery. The Stormfather claims Honor never considered that the Heralds could be tortured and break, so no Desolations were intended, no need for fighting.

So what are Honorblades even for?

I have a theory in my signature about two separate Herald/Honor oaths (one to get Honorblades and immortality early on, one to imprison Fused spirits). But I'm not sure I believe that any more.

[TheOtherDave]

4 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

The reason is that Honor wanted to limit surgebinding powers, so he created the honorblade to be weak, spren bonds were also originally restricted in power(we know that modern Radiants are more powerful than those of old), but then Honor died, and the spren lost their restrictions. 

Wait, what? Can you elaborate? Is that a WoB? Did I miss something in the books?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

12 hours ago, kenthomas261 said:

It's my understanding that they have weapons because that's what they came to honor asking for. They came to honor asking for access to the surges they had on Ashyn so that they could fight against the Fused in the first desolation.

Even more troubling

• How could Honor, who is about keeping promises, aid people in getting out of their land?
• The Honorblades are optimal weapons only if you get the direct link to Honor for Investiture. So why give them immortality before the oathpact? How did it work?

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

This is a big mystery. The Stormfather claims Honor never considered that the Heralds could be tortured and break, so no Desolations were intended, no need for fighting.

The Heralds got this suspicious ability to just form new superhero bodies on Roshar, which the Fused do not get. I can't help but see that as an intentional method.

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

So what are Honorblades even for?

I have a theory in my signature about two separate Herald/Honor oaths (one to get Honorblades and immortality early on, one to imprison Fused spirits). But I'm not sure I believe that any more.

The problem with the immortality is that death sends them to Braize. You would have to propose that that is secondary. But then why do they get bodies when returning to Roshar? You would  need to start handwaving like saying that an oath is an oath only if it can be violated. Now you are at a stage of finding ad-hoc explanations.

Their bodies are just made for continual war. Their weapons are made for their bodies and their direct link to Honor. And of course Honor is a Shard, with futuresight. Are we supposed to believe that he did not forsee the Desolations? I am sorry, but I cannot help but conclude that Honor chose to inflict the Desolations on Roshar.

[Yumiya]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Heralds got this suspicious ability to just form new superhero bodies on Roshar, which the Fused do not get.

That is not the impression I got. The heralds do not have superhero bodies and there is definitely a change to those who except Fused into their gem hearts. Maybe I missed something?

[cometaryorbit]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Even more troubling

• How could Honor, who is about keeping promises, aid people in getting out of their land?
• The Honorblades are optimal weapons only if you get the direct link to Honor for Investiture. So why give them immortality before the oathpact? How did it work?

- I am starting to think he didn't, that the characters are wrong at the end of OB and that the original betrayal had nothing to do with invading Singer lands: that came much later. Humans possibly only conquered Roshar after the Heralds and Fused existed and the Singers had switched from following Honor to following Odium.

The Eila Stele blames the humans for bringing Odium and a betrayal of "spren, stone, and wind". Not for physical conflict. And there's the whole spren betrayed singers/singers betrayed spren thing. And "Honor was the god of the Dawnsingers".

- Herald immortality, imo, is just a result of being Cognitive Shadows. I think they had a direct link to Honor as soon as they became CogShadows.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Yumiya said:

That is not the impression I got. The heralds do not have superhero bodies and there is definitely a change to those who except Fused into their gem hearts. Maybe I missed something?

Yes

• Talenel plucking a needle out of the air in Oathbringer
• Nale grasping an arrow fired at him in Rhythm of War
• Ishar fighting multiple Radiants in Rhythm of War

They perform superhuman feats.

48 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

- Herald immortality, imo, is just a result of being Cognitive Shadows. I think they had a direct link to Honor as soon as they became CogShadows.

But they are not just ageless. They get to create new bodies at will. No other Cognitive Shadow gets that.

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes

• Talenel plucking a needle out of the air in Oathbringer
• Nale grasping an arrow fired at him in Rhythm of War
• Ishar fighting multiple Radiants in Rhythm of War

They perform superhuman feats.

But they are not just ageless. They get to create new bodies at will. No other Cognitive Shadow gets that.

Don't Returned get superhuman reflexes etc too? Maybe not to the same degree, but then they're less powerful Cognitive Shadows (by Zahel's explanation in RoW). I think that might not really be a feature of their bodies, per se, more of the way they're Invested.

I don't think they do get to create new bodies "at will", only on the Braize -> Roshar transition. If Ishar's arm got cut off I don't think he could get a new intact body without dying on Roshar, going to Braize, then returning again.

We don't know how that mechanism works, but if we believe the Stormfather that Honor expected them to imprison the Fused forever, it must be a side effect of what they are vs a designed-in feature.

Now maybe the Stormfather is lying or wrong, but...

(Hmm, maybe they don't exactly create new bodies.. maybe they manifest their Cognitive selves physically the way Ishar is trying to do for spren... isn't Taln wet like a newly summoned Shardblade when he first appears?)

[Yumiya]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

isn't Taln wet like a newly summoned Shardblade when he first appears?

I don't think we see Taln when he first appears. There is a WOB saying it was a couple of months, though that is only WOB Canon 

Quote

Steeldancer

Taln, did he give in to the torture around the events of Way of Kings?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to look at the...So he should have given in to events in the current version of the book right before...Let's just say around Way of Kings. I'm not going to canonize that, though. In the version of Way of Kings that I wrote in 2002, he'd been around for a few years before he showed up in the narrative. And in the current outline, I don't have that be the case, but I haven't written his book yet. So for canon, but it's a Word of Brandon canon, I'm going to say, he's only been around for a couple of months before he shows up at the city.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[cometaryorbit]

Oh hmmmmm I totally thought he appeared on Roshar in the WoK Epilogue.

That would weaken the idea but I still think there could be a connection between Ishar's experiments and Herald re-embodiment.

Kalak (in the Prologue) experiences his torment on Braize (Braize's Cognitive?) 'physically' so they may have their Physical and Cognitive selves be basically the same.

[Zrogezrg]

Another questions:

Is giving access to surges the primary feature of honorblades?

Maybe they were needed to form the Oathpact, and symbolise connection between Honor and Heralds, and the surgebinding is just a side effect?

Somehow, killing one of the Heralds did not break the Oathpact.

About Shardplate, It seems to me that it would be weird if 4th oath radiant would be better equipped than a Herald. Maybe Heralds could attract some spren to form plates. We seen this mechanic in terms of advancing in radiant oaths, but the exact mechanism of how it works is not explained. On the other hand, Syl says something about not being able to attract spren ( no spren-ception), so maybe this extents to Heralds as well.