Air travel on Roshar

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why is pushing on trace metals a matter of power, not one of perception?

And why wouldn't it be a matter of power? Solids are much denser.

Solids are much denser, but in order to use Abrasion to uncap speed for Gravitation, you’d pass through a ton of air.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/23/2022 at 5:11 PM, Stoneshaper said:

Ever since I read that quote from Wyndle I’ve wondered how all cosmere magics or energy neutral. I don’t even know what powers awakening but it seems like awakened objects can move forever 

They aren't. Awakening is "end neutral" in the sense of Investiture, not energy. (In the process of Awakening, new Breaths are not drawn from the Spiritual Realm nor are Breaths consumed; existing Breath is just moved around.  Breath is only added to the system when new people are born and only lost from the system when people die without giving it away.)

In end-positive systems the user draws Investiture from the Spiritual Realm or Shard while using the magic.

In end-negative system there is loss when existing Investiture is transferred.

In Mistborn for example

Spoiler

Koloss can be very strong when eating non nutritious diets, so physical energy is probably being gained. But Hemalurgy is still end negative since there is a loss of Investiture - the spikes contain less Investiture than the people killed to make them.

 

Also, Wyndle is very unsure there (he says it should work that way but Lift is so weird who knows).

[Frustration]

23 hours ago, Nameless said:

Solids are much denser, but in order to use Abrasion to uncap speed for Gravitation, you’d pass through a ton of air.

That's an amplitude vs voltage difference in power.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's an amplitude vs voltage difference in power.

What do you mean by that?

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Nameless said:

What do you mean by that?

So it's a difference of power available at once versus power over time.

Going through solids would require a lot of power right away, whereas going through air would require the power over a much greater amount of time.

[NameIess]

10 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So it's a difference of power available at once versus power over time.

Going through solids would require a lot of power right away, whereas going through air would require the power over a much greater amount of time.

Alright, maybe you wouldn't be able to phase through walls.

However, I still see no reason to be jumping to conclusions about ways that you Edgedancers could possibly eliminate air resistance, when we don't have it confirmed that Edgedancers can in fact eliminate air resistance.

[Chinkoln]

I have read through all the stuff, and I’m going to try my best to piece together what I gathered from all that, and compare it to my limited knowledge of physics…

Physics doesn’t work here. Quantum physics is the answer.

For physics to apply, then I think we would be looking at an air resistance formula. You can look at all factors in that, and it doesn’t make sense for an Edgedancer to be manipulating any of them. Lift isn’t changing the density of air, she isn’t directly influencing her speed (when using powers. She obviously does when she slaps the ground), she isn’t changing the drag coefficient (though that is a whole equation of itself), and she isn’t changing her surface area. If you don’t change any of those, then your air resistance doesn’t change.

According to quantum physics, when two things encounter each other, there is a non zero chance for one to pass through the other without interacting. This is how things like glass and photons interact to let light pass through. If you fill a glass with water and pick it up, you might not be able to see your hand through the water and glass. But if you squeeze the glass really hard, that infinitesimal amount that your fingers got closer will increase that non zero chance enough to allow some photons to pass through and reach your eyes. 
This chance exists with bigger things as well, just much much smaller. You could theoretically stand up and walk through a wall, or your cat could fall through you when you pick it up, or a bullet could go through you, etc. The chances are just so incredibly small that… there isn’t even a comparison that would give the right idea. 
I think that what Lift does is use Stormlight to increase those odds. There isn’t any scientific explanation for what she does, but I think she accesses the spiritual realm to let her pass through air, or at least ignore the presence of the electrons around her that would be pushing against her skin.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Chinkoln
Typo

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

 You can look at all factors in that, and it doesn’t make sense for an Edgedancer to be manipulating any of them. Lift isn’t changing the density of air, she isn’t directly influencing her speed (when using powers. She obviously does when she slaps the ground), she isn’t changing the drag coefficient (though that is a whole equation of itself), and she isn’t changing her surface area.

I'm not convinced Abrasion necessarily affects air resistance (that strikes me as possibly an Adhesion effect under 'Pressure and Vacuum') but if it did, why couldn't it work by setting the drag coefficient to zero?

I do think Windrunners with sufficient knowledge/skill might be able to reach crazy speeds by combining Adhesion to reduce air pressure in front of them with Gravitation. Or if they can't do this with their natural abilities, I think it's within what the Surge of Adhesion can potentially do in fabrials or whatever.

[Chinkoln]

18 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not convinced Abrasion necessarily affects air resistance (that strikes me as possibly an Adhesion effect under 'Pressure and Vacuum') but if it did, why couldn't it work by setting the drag coefficient to zero?

The drag coefficient isn’t an arbitrary number, you cant just decide for it to become 0. She isn’t changing the density of the air (probably), she is changing her speed relative to the air, though This isnt direct and it is an insignificant amount. Air vibrates at several hundred miles per hour, so her going a bit faster doesn’t change much. And once again, she isn’t changing her size.

[cometaryorbit]

19 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The drag coefficient isn’t an arbitrary number, you cant just decide for it to become 0.

Not in our world, no, but you also can't make your coefficient of friction zero either, or change the direction of gravity for just one object.

I think Surgebinding is kind of like reality editing, changing physical (or Cognitive) variables for whatever person/object you're affecting. Gravitation changes the direction of acceleration due to gravity for whatever is being Lashed, Abrasion sets friction to zero, Transformation changes the Cognitive definition of something (e.g. "I'm a goblet" -> "I'm blood"), Transportation changes the location of someone (or something?), etc.

Syl talks about natural forces like gravity being basically 'an agreement between friends'. Surgebinding is changing that agreement, temporarily and locally, imo.

[Chinkoln]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Not in our world, no, but you also can't make your coefficient of friction zero either, or change the direction of gravity for just one object.

I think Surgebinding is kind of like reality editing, changing physical (or Cognitive) variables for whatever person/object you're affecting. Gravitation changes the direction of acceleration due to gravity for whatever is being Lashed, Abrasion sets friction to zero, Transformation changes the Cognitive definition of something (e.g. "I'm a goblet" -> "I'm blood"), Transportation changes the location of someone (or something?), etc.

Syl talks about natural forces like gravity being basically 'an agreement between friends'. Surgebinding is changing that agreement, temporarily and locally, imo.

Yes, I completely agree. I did my best to give an Earth definition for what was going on, but like all fantasy magic systems, we can only explain so much. There is always that point that we have to stop and say, “This is magic”

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, Chinkoln said:

Yes, I completely agree. I did my best to give an Earth definition for what was going on, but like all fantasy magic systems, we can only explain so much. There is always that point that we have to stop and say, “This is magic”

Ok then I guess the only point where I disagree is that I don't think there's anything quantum involved. Friction and atmospheric pressure are forces that exist in the classical/macroscopic world; at the quantum level it's all electromagnetism. So I think Abrasion and Adhesion are dealing with classical physics / macroscopic world effects, altering them 'as a whole', rather than directly altering things at the quantum level.

Cohesion was specifically limited or designed by Honor to be limited to intermolecular or interatomic bonds, not splitting atoms (not clear whether this is an 'external' restriction which is falling away like the 'unchained Bondsmith' issue, or one designed into the magic system).

Surface tension and the rigidity of objects is also a macroscopic /classical phenomenon, so I think Tension is also basically macroscopic: the connection to the strong nuclear force is probably more philosophical.  (Though the Surges as concepts include more than the specific KR/Herald powerset, I think.)

EDIT: I'd say Progression (healing being based on your Cognitive self), Transformation, and Transportation are more Cognitive or inter-Realm in nature and not really 'physical', but they do work with objects or people as a whole.

Illumination's light-wave aspects strike me as the only really quantum-looking thing we see in Surgebinding itself, though the nature of spren and Lights definitely has quantum-ish properties.

Edited July 27, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[CosmereMaths]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:40 PM, cometaryorbit said:

They aren't. Awakening is "end neutral" in the sense of Investiture, not energy. (In the process of Awakening, new Breaths are not drawn from the Spiritual Realm nor are Breaths consumed; existing Breath is just moved around.  Breath is only added to the system when new people are born and only lost from the system when people die without giving it away.)

In end-positive systems the user draws Investiture from the Spiritual Realm or Shard while using the magic.

In end-negative system there is loss when existing Investiture is transferred.

In Mistborn for example

  Hide contents

Koloss can be very strong when eating non nutritious diets, so physical energy is probably being gained. But Hemalurgy is still end negative since there is a loss of Investiture - the spikes contain less Investiture than the people killed to make them.

 

Also, Wyndle is very unsure there (he says it should work that way but Lift is so weird who knows).

Yeah that kinda shows that breath isn’t conserving energy. Since all the breath after awakening is accounting for, that investiture can’t be what is powering awakened objects. Similarly the heightening seem to cost nothing once a person has enough breath. If I invest a price of cloth with the command “turn turbines” then I will just get unlimited energy until I reclaim the breaths if I ever do. This is showing that the energy stored in breath isn’t corresponding to the energy used in awakening. I have no idea how color bleaching plays into this

[cometaryorbit]

41 minutes ago, CosmereMaths said:

 This is showing that the energy stored in breath isn’t corresponding to the energy used in awakening. I have no idea how color bleaching plays into this

I think the Breath is a chunk of Investiture which pulls energy through from the Spiritual Realm, rather than using energy stored within the Breath itself.

Mistborn:

Spoiler

Hemalurgic iron strength in koloss/Blessing of Potency kandra seems to work the same way - TenSoon describes it as adding strength to each muscle, and koloss certainly don't need to eat more calories than humans (less in fact, they can live on dirt etc).

Stormlight glow is probably similar: the glow fades because the Stormlight leaks from the sphere, not because it's being converted to regular physical light. Otherwise better gems (which leak less) would glow less. The physical light energy is coming from the Spiritual.

EDIT: color bleaching in Awakening is related to Breath transfer, not continuing effects of Breath. Regular Awakened objects* don't consume color while operating, nor do the passive benefits of Heightenings.

*Nightblood does, but he also consumes Breath, so transfer is still happening.

Edited July 28, 2022 by cometaryorbit
Mistborn Spoiler box

[Lego Mistborn]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think the Breath is a chunk of Investiture which pulls energy through from the Spiritual Realm, rather than using energy stored within the Breath itself.

Mistborn:

  Hide contents

Hemalurgic iron strength in koloss/Blessing of Potency kandra seems to work the same way - TenSoon describes it as adding strength to each muscle, and koloss certainly don't need to eat more calories than humans (less in fact, they can live on dirt etc).

Stormlight glow is probably similar: the glow fades because the Stormlight leaks from the sphere, not because it's being converted to regular physical light. Otherwise better gems (which leak less) would glow less. The physical light energy is coming from the Spiritual.

Mistborn:

Spoiler

All allomancy does too, the metal isn't actually invested, it just channels investiture. I almost wonder if Stormlight Isn't the same.

 

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Mistborn:

  Hide contents

All allomancy does too, the metal isn't actually invested, it just channels investiture. I almost wonder if Stormlight Isn't the same.

 

Stormlight (and Breath) are Investiture themselves. They can provide energy from the Spiritual, but I think new Investiture only comes in from a highstorm (or Bondsmith) - on Roshar - or new people with Breath being born - on Nalthis.

Allomantic Metals and Aons (on Sel) are physical 'keys' that pull in Investiture from the relevant Shard(s).

[+robardin]

I saw the thread title and was not expecting 3+ pages of argument based on the physics of our world, about the physics of magic that breaks the physics of our world, LOL.

Par for the course here, I suppose

No, what I was expecting was a discussion of the creation of more fabrial aircraft like The Fourth Bridge (possibly by the Fused and the singers, now) and how that might play out, especially for the "back five" books of Stormlight which will be set about 10 years after SA5 (?), in facilitating large scale travel and transport between parts of Roshar that have no Oathgate (or have them disabled/inaccessible due to hostile forces controlling them).

"Good morning, welcome onto Airsick Lowlander! I am Gift, your ula'makai for this trip, what you call "captain." We stop first at Narak, pick up some people and things, then return to my Peaks, then come back to Urithiru a week later. Please, no spitting over edge as we fly, is disrespectful. I should have to thump you!"

Edited July 31, 2022 by robardin

[cometaryorbit]

I do expect more fabrial airships, but don't know how they will work. The Fourth Bridge is not going to be easy to scale up to large numbers of airships, or high speeds, with the whole chull power system. Maybe Gravitation Surge?

[Lego Mistborn]

They use @Frustration's apparatus, combined with the opening of a perpendicularly to create an effective infinite power source.

[offer]

33 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I do expect more fabrial airships, but don't know how they will work. The Fourth Bridge is not going to be easy to scale up to large numbers of airships, or high speeds, with the whole chull power system. Maybe Gravitation Surge?

They starting developing a method to replace the chulls with weights lowered by pullies like in the hand flying fabrial Kaladin used and Navani suggested using highstorms and a windmill to raise the weights back up after they are used. With this method they could power dosens of airships with the same effort of the powering the Fourth Bridge by chulls.