Air travel on Roshar

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Stoneshaper said:

Best answer: cause of perception stuff. The surges are what people believe the forces of nature to be. Air restistance and friction and the fact that cups don’t fall through the table when you put them down are all the same force but people view them differently. Best I can tell Rosharans consider air resistance and ground friction as abrasive forces but not the normal force

If that was the case, then it will stop working that way eventually.

I think this is all an overcomplication of what is in all likelihood just a case of either Brandon not fully understanding the physics behind air resistance or Lift not noticing the air resistance that was still there due to the massively decreased air resistance she felt.

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Then why does it only work for air?

How does iron feruchemy

Spoiler

Change weight without affecting density, gravity, or volume?

Not change gravity, density, or volume but still change how the user is affected by air resistance?

Why air I haven't the faintest clue, but it's not just air, the above passage mentions light, and I'm inclined to assume liquids would be affected as well.

The question really shouldn't be why air, it's why not solids. And I'm inclined to agree with stoneshaper, it's perception and spiritual stuff.

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

How does iron feruchemy

  Reveal hidden contents

Change weight without affecting density, gravity, or volume?

Not change gravity, density, or volume but still change how the user is affected by air resistance?

Why air I haven't the faintest clue, but it's not just air, the above passage mentions light, and I'm inclined to assume liquids would be affected as well.

The question really shouldn't be why air, it's why not solids. And I'm inclined to agree with stoneshaper, it's perception and spiritual stuff.

If it's just perception, then era 4 Edgedancers will be able to phase through walls. I don't think that's going to happen, so I don't think this theory has merit.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If it's just perception, then era 4 Edgedancers will be able to phase through walls. I don't think that's going to happen, so I don't think this theory has merit.

I'd imagine it taking the same amount of power as pushing on trace metals. Perception decided factors on this scale aren't overcome with perception of your own.

And besides the Fused already phase through walls.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Frustration

[CosmereMaths]

21 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If you remove friction completely, then it won't matter how fast you move, because no friction means there'll still be no energy exerted against you.

That’s not how it works, The ground doesn’t have energy to lose, but energy is lost as heat and sound as momentum of a sliding object is transferred to the ground. The faster the object the more energy lost. 
(speed loss is constant but energy loss rises linearly with speed). However we assumed stormlight/lifelight is working to counteract the force of friction if it’s exhibiting a counter force then it needs to exert more when it goes faster. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

I'd imagine it taking the same amount of power as pushing on trace metals. Perception decided factors on this scale aren't overcome with perception of your own.

And besides the Fused already phase through walls.

If that were the case, then going at incredible speeds would require insane amounts of power too, as you'd have to go through just as much matter.

4 minutes ago, Stoneshaper said:

That’s not how it works, The ground doesn’t have energy to lose, but energy is lost as heat and sound as momentum of a sliding object is transferred to the ground. The faster the object the more energy lost. 
(speed loss is constant but energy loss rises linearly with speed). However we assumed stormlight/lifelight is working to counteract the force of friction if it’s exhibiting a counter force then it needs to exert more when it goes faster. 

As I understand it every object has a friction coefficient.  I believe that Abrasion works by setting that friction coefficient to zero. So speed and force won't matter.

[CosmereMaths]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And besides the Fused already phase through walls.

True even if those Fused are the deepest ones (cohesion?) and not the flowing ones (abrasions) I don’t know how to differentiate between Tension and Cohesion honestly

[CosmereMaths]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 

As I understand it every object has a friction coefficient.  I believe that Abrasion works by setting that friction coefficient to zero. So speed and force won't matter.

If that’s how you see it I don’t see why Abrasion can’t also set the resistance  coefficient (based on density) of gaseous mixtures to 0. 

[NameIess]

Just now, Stoneshaper said:

If that’s how you see it I don’t see why Abrasion can’t also set the resistance  coefficient (based on density) of gaseous mixtures to 0. 

They can't, because air resistance is a problem because you have to physically push air out of your way. Eliminating friction can help with that, but you still have to move the air, and that still takes energy.

[CosmereMaths]

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They can't, because air resistance is a problem because you have to physically push air out of your way. Eliminating friction can help with that, but you still have to move the air, and that still takes energy.

What do you think friction is?

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Nameless said:

If that were the case, then going at incredible speeds would require insane amounts of power too, as you'd have to go through just as much matter.

It's not the amount of matter but the state it's in. People go through gases all of the time, so they see it as something you can go. However the Deepest Ones are the only people we've seen go through solid objects. So people see it as something you can'tove through.

[NameIess]

42 minutes ago, Stoneshaper said:

What do you think friction is?

Friction occurs due to irregularities in objects. Those irregularities can be smoothed out by Stormlight.

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's not the amount of matter but the state it's in. People go through gases all of the time, so they see it as something you can go. However the Deepest Ones are the only people we've seen go through solid objects. So people see it as something you can'tove through.

Yeah, but with trained perception they'd be able to do it just fine.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Nameless

[CosmereMaths]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Friction occurs due to irregularities in objects. Those irregularities can be smoothed out by Stormlight.

That make sense. So then the amount of stormlight used would be proportional to distance traveled, or surface area covered. (Perhaps why sliding on foot is preferable to paddling around on knees). Still you’d need to use more stormlight moving faster cause you’d be covering more ground

[NameIess]

Just now, Stoneshaper said:

That make sense. So then the amount of stormlight used would be proportional to distance traveled, or surface area covered. (Perhaps why sliding on foot is preferable to paddling around on knees). Still you’d need to use more stormlight moving faster cause you’d be covering more ground

No, it would still be based on time. If there are no irregularities in one object, then the other cannot catch on it. Now, there's also an interaction on the atomic scale, but that can be canceled out too. Think of it as putting a layer of frictionless investiture between your feet and the ground, not as investiture boosting you forward to make up for friction.

[Olmund]

A few points:

- The reason solid matter is treated differently from fluids has to do with the lattice-like molecular bonds found in both cosmere and real-world solids (referred to as "axial connections" in-world). These bonds produce physical differences which clearly separate solids from substances which normally allow elements/molecules to flow around each other, and thus the surges of cohesion/abrasion/tension would not likely change in "Era 4" merely because physical understanding improves (and/or becomes more commonplace).

-Even if the surge of abrasion was a 99% physical process (with almost no interference from the cognitive/spiritual realms), the hypothetical energy expenditure required to compress air away from the surgebinder in order to remove drag (which does seem to fall under Brandon's "abrasion" umbrella as evidenced by Lift) could vary greatly depending on the shape of the envelope that the investiture creates. If it created a sphere around the user, it would require a lot of energy to instantly accelerate the air (or other fluid) molecules to the sides, compressing a lot of air extremely quickly. On the other hand, if it created a blade-shaped envelope pointed in the direction the user is traveling, the air would have significantly more time to travel to the sides and thus less energy would be required to compress the air. And if the envelope is precisely human shaped, the amount of energy required would depend on how much surface area the surgebinder exposes in the direction of travel (perfect diving posture would require the least energy, though a speed skater posture would offer more control).

At any rate, without more data I wouldn't claim that the surge of gravitation is necessarily a more energy efficient traversal method than the "full slicking" method of removing drag that Lift uses. A significant amount of investiture is burned just to negate gravity, and maintaining lashings requires continuous burning of investiture as well (it's not just a single spike of kinetic energy; acceleration requires continuous input of kinetic energy). Any argument you can make against eliminating drag from a conservation of momentum perspective applies just as readily to lashing, if not more so (since they, too, have to deal with drag).

[Duxredux]

I have a few thoughts on the original post, regardless of how fast someone manipulating Adhesion and Gravitation can go. Most of this is pretty obvious or already seen, but I'll state it anyway.

To start, there's several transportation methods this has to compete with. First is the Oathgates, once they all become operational. Teleportation of the capacity of the Oathgate platform could handle all of the traffic and supply shipments needed to keep Urithiru running before they figured out how to get any of the tower's mechanisms to function. 22 minutes to Shinovar is screaming fast, if instantaneous travel isn't an option (which admittedly it isn't until that Oathgate is unlocked).

Second is Fourth Bridge which basically allows for airborne cargo transport. There's a reason we still use massive, slow, water-based cargo ships even though we have aircraft that can go Mach 3. The Fourth Bridge is definitely not the apex of fabrial airships if what we've heard of Mistborn Era 4 is anything to guess by, and I expect air shipping to become more efficient and viable. I will note that the current method of using conjoined fabrials will not benefit much from manipulating Adhesion as the speed of the Fourth Bridge is largely limited to the speed of the conjoined lattice that controls horizontal movement.

Third is that it has to be better for the situation or fit a different role than a Windrunner or Skybreaker flying over the Highstorm. They would be limited to the speed of the Highstorm, which averages 370 mph, but would allow for the entire entourage to arrive fully infused with Stormlight. Stormlight usage rate from multiple Lashings doesn't matter if they are constantly being recharged. 

Fourth is that communication by spanread is instantaneous. Any fast travel must by necessity require the presence of the individuals or supplies transported.

There are certainly applications that a Windrunner or Skybreaker flying with an Edgedancer to eliminate air resistance could be useful, such as when a strike force must be delivered quickly to a location a substantial distance from an Oathgate (actually, didn't one of Dalinar's visions have a Windrunner and an Edgedancer flying in tandem to fight the Midnight Essence?), if the destination is anti-stormward, if a Highstorm is not scheduled, or if Stormlight is available at the destination. I don't expect the addition of Adhesion to revolutionize transportation just yet though. There are other, though not insurmountable issues of flying when air and light have no purchase on you. Non-Radiants may not be able to breath either from the power of Adhesion or the speed of travel, and if you cannot see as even light slides off, there is the problem of seeing where you are going and if you have arrived. Removing the power that protects your eyes and lungs from air resistance at that speed could have... consequences. Best to be wearing living Shardplate that can become translucent, but not everyone has that option. There may also be issues if the group drifts apart while they can't see at those speeds, since for some reason the Windrunners don't tie themselves to passengers they have Lashed for flight. If Adhesion doesn't let you phase through solid objects, better fly higher than everything if you don't want to hit a Skyeel at Mach 10, because there's no way you're seeing it in time to dodge, even if you can see.

Cool thought, and I expect Gravitation and Adhesion to work together to make big changes, but if someone decided to strap Lift to Szeth when he goes to cleanse Shinovar, I don't think it would revolutionize how Dalinar deploys the Knights Radiant, though if the savings on Stormlight and time are great enough, maybe it would. I could see a Fourth Bridge variant where only vertical movement is controlled with a conjoined lattice while horizontal motion is controlled by placing an Adhesion barrier on the prow and Lashing a sturdy part of the ship's frame in the direction of travel.

[Frustration]

On 7/23/2022 at 6:00 PM, Nameless said:

Yeah, but with trained perception they'd be able to do it just fine.

Perception of one individual cannot overcome the collective unconscious without additional power.

Soulcasting part of an object is much harder, even if one person is trained to look at it one way, the Cognitive and Spiritual realms will see it another way.

It takes over fifty years for a rug to become part of a building cognitively, that is far longer than it takes for people to see it that way.

Spoiler

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

If Nightblood were in the cognitive realm and was used to stab a bead that was the cognitive representation of a castle, would the castle be destroyed in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you could get Nightblood into the Cognitive Realm, then yes. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

What would happen to people who were in the castle at the time? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They wouldn't be affected (other than possibly plummeting to their death).

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

How about a carpet that had been in the castle for 50 years? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, 50 years most likely wouldn't be enough time. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

Is this like the "Ship of Theseus?" 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

Therefore regardless of the training that people may put in without additional power an Edgedanncer will not be able to phase through walls.

Not that it would break anything if they could, because other people can do that. But they can't.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Perception of one individual cannot overcome the collective unconscious without additional power.

Soulcasting part of an object is much harder, even if one person is trained to look at it one way, the Cognitive and Spiritual realms will see it another way.

 I don't think it works like that. The way I see it, soulcasting part of an object is much harder not because you have to fight other's perceptions of it, but because you have to perceive of it properly.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It takes over fifty years for a rug to become part of a building cognitively, that is far longer than it takes for people to see it that way.

  Reveal hidden contents

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

If Nightblood were in the cognitive realm and was used to stab a bead that was the cognitive representation of a castle, would the castle be destroyed in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If you could get Nightblood into the Cognitive Realm, then yes. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

What would happen to people who were in the castle at the time? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They wouldn't be affected (other than possibly plummeting to their death).

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

How about a carpet that had been in the castle for 50 years? 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, 50 years most likely wouldn't be enough time. 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine (paraphrased)

Is this like the "Ship of Theseus?" 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

Therefore regardless of the training that people may put in without additional power an Edgedanncer will not be able to phase through walls.

Again, I don't think everyone's perception matters, merely the individuals. Soulcasting part of an object is a matter of overcoming your own perception. For an example from another magic system:

(Mistborn)

Quote

Through a lot of training, Kelsier managed to push on multiple parts of the same iron bar. This was difficult not because everyone saw the bar as one object, but because Kelsier saw the bar as one object. He had to overcome his own perception, not other's.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Not that it would break anything if they could, because other people can do that. But they can't.

I think it would break the themes of the Edgedancers if they were able to phase through anything. As cool as it would be to have some really old edgedancer with a lifetime of training start phasing through bullets and whatnot, I don't think that's the route Brandon wants to go. I think a much easier explanation is that Lift just didn't notice the greatly reduced effect of air resistance. (To be honest, I don't really know what kind of effect removing friction would have. Is anyone here smart enough to figure that out?)

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 I don't think it works like that. The way I see it, soulcasting part of an object is much harder not because you have to fight other's perceptions of it, but because you have to perceive of it properly.

You don't just have to fight other people's perception, but the perception of the object as well. Objects think of themselves as whole, so breaking that is much harder.

Likewise gasses and liquids are used to things moving through them, whereas solids are not.

 

And on theme that's fair I guess, even if I disagree.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Frustration

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

You don't just have to fight other people's perception, but the perception of the object as well. Objects think of themselves as whole, so breaking that is much harder.

Likewise gasses and liquids are used to things moving through them, whereas solids are not.

I see no reason that an Edgedancer's phasing would be like Soulcasters in that way as opposed to being more like healing, which relies solely on the individual's perception. Besides that, even Soulcasters can overcome perception with enough training, so Edgedancers should be able to as well.

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I see no reason that an Edgedancer's phasing would be like Soulcasters in that way as opposed to being more like healing, which relies solely on the individual's perception. Besides that, even Soulcasters can overcome perception with enough training, so Edgedancers should be able to as well.

I'm of the opinion that it is possible, but would be closer to pushing on trace metals than just a skill thing.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm of the opinion that it is possible, but would be closer to pushing on trace metals than just a skill thing.

It's pretty different from trace metals. This one is just based on perception, not power.

[Frustration]

20 minutes ago, Nameless said:

It's pretty different from trace metals. This one is just based on perception, not power.

And you know that how?

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And you know that how?

How do you know the opposite? It seems to me that it's just a matter of perception. Why would it be a matter of power?

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, Nameless said:

How do you know the opposite? It seems to me that it's just a matter of perception. Why would it be a matter of power?

Why is pushing on trace metals a matter of power, not one of perception?

And why wouldn't it be a matter of power? Solids are much denser.