Why are people confused about Tal's honor blade?

[bmcclure7]

I thought we're all taking for granted that hoid has The stone ward honor blade?  I mean he is literally the only one who could have taken it and he hand yet has been collecting powers so why would he pass on a honor blade?  I don't understand why people are so confused about this?

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

I thought we're all taking for granted that hoid has The stone ward honor blade?  I mean he is literally the only one who could have taken it and he hand yet has been collecting powers so why would he pass on a honor blade?  I don't understand why people are so confused about this?

Hoid doesn’t have it and didn’t  switch out Taln’s blade according to Brandon. 

I think Taln still has it, Hoid just got him to dismiss it and gave him a second blade.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6885

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7282

[+Invocation]

Because he doesn't have the sword. He may or may not have had it at some point, but he does not have it anymore.

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Shouldn't that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened.

[...]

[This is] a question that the subtle reader should be asking. And there are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Questioner

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. In fact there's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Questioner 2

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

 

[Sjsharks93]

As for why Hoid didn't switch the blade, I think it is a respect thing. The Heralds are some of the few people in the Cosmere that Hoid really respects.

[Quantus he/him]

11 hours ago, Sjsharks93 said:

As for why Hoid didn't switch the blade, I think it is a respect thing. The Heralds are some of the few people in the Cosmere that Hoid really respects.

Empathizes with their plight more than "respects" them directly, I think, but yes. 

Also at the time he was still keeping a low profile from the Shards and touching an actual Honorblade (being a direct splinter of Honor) might have threatened whatever steps he'd been taking to hide from them.  Pre speculation that, but possible.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

24 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Empathizes with their plight more than "respects" them directly, I think, but yes. 

Nah, it's pretty clear he treats them with 'reverence', quote from the book. And they clearly deserve it

[Quantus he/him]

3 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Nah, it's pretty clear he treats them with 'reverence', quote from the book. And they clearly deserve it

That was Taln and Ash specifically (our heroic POV book heralds) not the group as a whole.  Ten bucks says Ishar and Nale do not get the same deference.  

But he does seem to empathize with how the weight of Immortality is wearing on them, much like Kelek's for the UnMade trapped in a gem. 

[bmcclure7]

40 minutes ago, Quantus said:

That was Taln and Ash specifically (our heroic POV book heralds) not the group as a whole.  Ten bucks says Ishar and Nale do not get the same deference.  

But he does seem to empathize with how the weight of Immortality is wearing on them, much like Kelek's for the UnMade trapped in a gem. 

I'll take that bet.  Remember despite However they might be now when Hoid first knew them they were all glorious and heroic. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by bmcclure7

[Quantus he/him]

25 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I'll take that bet.  Remember despite However they might be now when Hoid first knew them they were all glorious and heroic. 

You're on.

I really hope we get a chance to see in the next book, and both are likely to show up in Szeth's storyline, but you can never really tell where Hoid's going to be.

[+Mzuka he/him]

On 7/14/2022 at 2:20 AM, bmcclure7 said:

I thought we're all taking for granted that hoid has The stone ward honor blade?  I mean he is literally the only one who could have taken it and he hand yet has been collecting powers so why would he pass on a honor blade?  I don't understand why people are so confused about this?

My pet crack theory is that Liss (the assassin with an Honorblade) either has it or got Taln to dismiss it. She has a Shardblade handy that she could have given to Taln, which would explain where he got one. She was also in Kholinar at the time (asx far as we know) since Jasnah planted her in the Palace to spy on Aesudan disguised as a maid (on the night of Gavilar's murder).

As for why she would do this, and how she would even know about Taln - I subscribe to the Liss = the Herald Vedel theory. A Herald whose Divine Attributes are "Loving, Healing" going Falling into an assassin seems logical, and Liss is described as having dark hair (same as Vedel). We know she isn't one of the Heralds who recclaimed her Honorblade by the time Szeth left, and have no indication that she has since, so the Blade she carries wouldn't be an Honorblade.

Now either she got Taln to dismiss it and gave him her ordinary Shardblade to cover him (as an apology for screwing him over half a millenia ago?), orrrr she switched them out for some reason.

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, Mzuka said:

My pet crack theory is that Liss (the assassin with an Honorblade) either has it or got Taln to dismiss it. She has a Shardblade handy that she could have given to Taln, which would explain where he got one. She was also in Kholinar at the time (asx far as we know) since Jasnah planted her in the Palace to spy on Aesudan disguised as a maid (on the night of Gavilar's murder).

As for why she would do this, and how she would even know about Taln - I subscribe to the Liss = the Herald Vedel theory. A Herald whose Divine Attributes are "Loving, Healing" going Falling into an assassin seems logical, and Liss is described as having dark hair (same as Vedel). We know she isn't one of the Heralds who recclaimed her Honorblade by the time Szeth left, and have no indication that she has since, so the Blade she carries wouldn't be an Honorblade.

Now either she got Taln to dismiss it and gave him her ordinary Shardblade to cover him (as an apology for screwing him over half a millenia ago?), orrrr she switched them out for some reason.

 Is there any proof that she was even in the area? 

[+Mzuka he/him]

11 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Is there any proof that she was even in the area? 

Who, Liss? We only meet her in the Jasnah prologue of Words of Radiance. Jasnah pays her to remain in the palace watching over Aesudan:

Quote

 

“You have instructions in the envelope,” Jasnah said. “Along with initial payment. I chose you because you are expert at extended observations. It is what I want. For now.”

Liss smiled, but nodded.

“Spying on the wife of the heir to the throne? It will be more expensive this way. You sure you don’t simply want her dead?"

“I accept the cost,” Jasnah replied. “In one week’s time, I will arrange for one of my sister-in-law’s maids to be released. You will apply for the position, using faked credentials I assume you are capable of producing. You will be hired. “From there, you watch and report. I will tell you if your other services are needed. You move only if I say. Understood?” 

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 24). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

We know Aeusdan was in Kholinar until her death in Oathbringer (well after Taln came and went), and get no other mention of Liss in subsequent books. We don't see any sign of Liss when Kaladin and the others reach Kholinar in OB, so Liss/Vedel was either laying low or she'd already scattered - maybe after Taln's arrival.

Another small piece of signposting that Liss might be Vedel is the guard Jasnha finds her with:

Quote

The man would be Liss’s new servant, and his presence meant Liss hadn’t left, despite Jasnah’s tardiness. Composing herself, she nodded to the guard—a Veden brute with red speckling his beard—and pushed into the room. 

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 23). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

He's Veden: each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with a Radiant Order - and, therefore Herald - during the Herladic Epochs (Alethela was associated with the Windrunners/Jezrien etc.). We don't have confirmation of which Kingdom was the home of the Edgedancers/Vedel, but I'd bet money it's the one whose capital is Veden City.

And as @En-priestess noted:

On 11/23/2020 at 0:42 PM, En-priestess said:

But also, a lot of attention is paid to her unusual ability to shift her accent. Jasnah comments on this twice:

"could have been Alethi. Or Veden. Or Bav. Depending on which part of her accent she chose to emphasize." - WoR prologue

"You're the one payin'" Liss said. A faint Bav dialect showing through. If it showed, it was only because she'd wished it." - WoR prologue

This thing with accents reminded me of what Lift does in Edgedancer when talking to the street urchin in Yeddaw - how she naturally adapts her speech to be able to communicate/connect with him. I feel like Liss's ability to shift her accent to sound native to any of these places seems a lot like the theorised Edgedancer resonance of enhanced communication with others. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Mzuka
Posted too soon

[bmcclure7]

15 hours ago, Mzuka said:

Who, Liss? We only meet her in the Jasnah prologue of Words of Radiance. Jasnah pays her to remain in the palace watching over Aesudan:

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 24). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

We know Aeusdan was in Kholinar until her death in Oathbringer (well after Taln came and went), and get no other mention of Liss in subsequent books. We don't see any sign of Liss when Kaladin and the others reach Kholinar in OB, so Liss/Vedel was either laying low or she'd already scattered - maybe after Taln's arrival.

Another small piece of signposting that Liss might be Vedel is the guard Jasnha finds her with:

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance: The Stormlight Archive Book Two: 2 (p. 23). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

He's Veden: each of the Silver Kingdoms was associated with a Radiant Order - and, therefore Herald - during the Herladic Epochs (Alethela was associated with the Windrunners/Jezrien etc.). We don't have confirmation of which Kingdom was the home of the Edgedancers/Vedel, but I'd bet money it's the one whose capital is Veden City.

And as @En-priestess noted:

She would be the only one other then wit in kolinar who would know enough to want to trade a shard blade for an honor blade (that is if she is vedel). 

[+Mzuka he/him]

On 7/20/2022 at 9:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

She would be the only one other then wit in kolinar who would know enough to want to trade a shard blade for an honor blade (that is if she is vedel). 

Yup that's why I think she's a good candidate. Also from a writerly perspective, putting Liss there and having no payoff seems pointless - and if she is Vedel, what other purpose does she serve/what could she have been placed there to do? The female Heralds must have been up to something.

[+robardin he/him]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:31 PM, bmcclure7 said:

She would be the only one other then wit in kolinar who would know enough to want to trade a shard blade for an honor blade (that is if she is vedel). 

Before you get to the question of "who" swapped in a deadspren Blade for Taln's Honorblade, you have to first ask: wouldn't Taln have had to unbond his Honorblade to allow it to be taken (versus simply dismissed)? Who could persuade him to do that...?

Especially when Taln is basically crazy and wouldn't recognize almost anybody (though he went a bit nuts when he saw Shallan Lightweaving in front of him, "One of Ishar's Knights!!")?

So yeah... Seems like it'd be a fellow Herald?

Quote

mooglefrooglian

Did the Heralds ever temporarily swap Honorblades and learn to use more than their regular two Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

It has happened. (But it was not common.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 16, 2015)

But, even if you go "Aha!" in thinking that if Liss = Vedel it fits all the pieces -

• She had a dead Blade on hand to swap in for Taln's
• She has the face/lies to convince Taln to unbond his Honorblade in exchange for it
• Assume she has a motive to want his Honorblade...
  • Most obviously, to regain Surgebinding?
  • But, if a Herald could have a bond with an Honorblade while forswearing the Oathpact, and any of them wanted to continue Surgebinding, wouldn't they just have kept their original Blades back at Ahrietiam?

Then the question is still open, why bother to "swap in" a deadspren Blade at all? 

It's not like the people at Kholinar believed he was the Herald Talenelat when he showed up; so it's not like giving him a Blade "for show", that wasn't his Honorblade, would prolong the charade. Especially since that dead Blade was not even gemstone bonded to him (Dalinar was able to bond it just by carrying it around for a week).

Team Radiant knew what the Honorblades were (after Kaladin brought back Szeth's Windrunner Honorblade) by the time Dalinar realized the "madman at Kholinar" now in his custody had really been the Herald Taln all along, and that therefore someone out there had taken it from Taln before he reached Kholinar... So swapping in the dead Blade achieved nothing useful except in providing Dalinar a test for Amaram (probably not the reason whoever did it had done so).

Maybe it functioned as a kind of "pacifier" Shardblade (LOL) for Crazy Taln to carry around? Like Liss/Vedel said "let's swap" and assumed Taln wouldn't notice he couldn't seem to bond to "her" Honorblade? And Crazy Taln never muttering "where's my Blade?" or "where's Vedel's Blade?" like you'd think he might, just shows how far gone he is? (He might have said something to Ash while lucid, though. "We gave them thousands of years without a Desolation! How wonderful! And oh... Vedel's gonna kill me, I seem to have lost her Honorblade, we swapped while I was nutso.")

Edited July 31, 2022 by robardin