Dalinar, Gavilar vs Szeth

[king of nowhere]

Just rereading WoR, I came to the point where Dalinar fights Szeth and loses. he realizes there that he could not have saved his brother 5 years before, the assassin would have defeated both.

is that so? i never bought it.

gavilar put on a good show against szeth on his own. he actually came close to winning, in the end.

dalinar was never close, but he resisted for a minute or so. while wounded and without plate.

two people at once have a much better chance than two people alone. I'm sure szeth could have defeated dalinar and then gavilar one after the other, but both at the same time, both in plate? Judging solely on how the fights were described, I'd have bet on the kholins.

[Frustration]

Szeth beat two full shardbearers, dozens of people with halfshards, and a man with a shardblade at once, Kholins stand no chance.

[Returned]

Maybe? Szeth was (and is) an extremely competent fighter and freely used the Windrunner Surges, which the Kholins didn't have experience dealing with. Even without Surgebinding Kaladin held his own against two Shardbearers in Plate in Adolin's duel, at least until his Stormlight ran out. I wouldn't say his performance was likely to have been worse if he'd had his Blade and was using his powers.

[Treamayne]

Gavilar hit Szeth once, and not with his Shardblade (so Szeth was healing). I'm not sure I would call that coming close to winning. Granted, he did deal with the lashings better than almost everybody else we saw that fought Szeth, but there is also no guarantee that had Dalinar been there (and sober) he would have had his plate too. After all, Sadeas was there (and ran) but didn't have his Plate. 

I wouldn't say that Dalinar and Gavilar, both with plate and blade, would not have a chance; but I still think it would be unlikely (though the odds are probably better than the nameless Veden Shardbearers - who also had to deal with a room full of Nobles used against them as distractions and impediments).

[+Harrycrapper]

I think it's relevant to point out that Szeth was holding back a bit during the fight. I don't remember the exact wording, but he was told to kill Gavilar, but make sure it was a spectacle. If he felt he was in danger of failing his main order, to kill Gavilar, he would have likely became more careful and efficient. 

[Letryx13]

On 5/5/2022 at 0:51 PM, Frustration said:

Szeth beat two full shardbearers, dozens of people with halfshards, and a man with a shardblade at once, Kholins stand no chance.

I made this exact argument when I posted about destroying the honorblades. Szeth's skill notwithstanding, someone who was wielding an honorblade (and the knowledge of how to use it) would be next to impossible to beat.  I don't think anyone short a knight radiant would stand a chance.

[king of nowhere]

On 5/5/2022 at 6:51 PM, Frustration said:

Szeth beat two full shardbearers, dozens of people with halfshards, and a man with a shardblade at once, Kholins stand no chance.

the kholins are not regular shardbearers. gavilar alone put up a better show than all the people at vedenar combined. dalinar too. this make me think that gavilar+dalinar would stand a much better chance.

it's also possible that szeth was a lot less effective against gavilar because he wasn't as practiced as he was in vedenar, after he'd already performed many killing sprees. which makes no difference, it still means the kholins would have stood a better chance.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

the kholins are not regular shardbearers. gavilar alone put up a better show than all the people at vedenar combined. dalinar too. this make me think that gavilar+dalinar would stand a much better chance.

it's also possible that szeth was a lot less effective against gavilar because he wasn't as practiced as he was in vedenar, after he'd already performed many killing sprees. which makes no difference, it still means the kholins would have stood a better chance.

Szeth also wasn't trying to kill Gavilar, just give himself enough time to kill Sadeas. If he had been trying to kill Gavilar he would have been far more agressive.

[Master Silver]

So a couple of things, firstly, I love these type of topics lol! Secondly, I think Dalinar was feeding a little bit on stormlight, like Kaladin did before knowing he was doing it. That helps explain why Dalinar did ok. He was a budding Surge Binder. Secondly, Szeth would do worse in a confined space. Not as much room to use lashings. So a banquet hall is a better place to fight than the kings quarters. Thirdly, has Dalinar ever lost when he goes full Blackthorn? I think Dalinar who fought Szeth in Words of Radiance, but with full plate and blade+ Gavilar fighting Szeth in the king's quarters would for Szeth to retreat. I don't think they can kill him, but very likely wear him down. The dimensions of the room are so important to help determine what both sides can do. If the celling is too high it gives Szeth an advantage. If the space is too confined the shardblades will be hard to use. I think full Blackthorn, aside from the heralds is the best fighter we have seen. 

[cometaryorbit]

I think Dalinar was probably right... maybe not 0% chance (because Honorblades don't heal Shardblade wounds, it's at least *possible*) but very very little. Szeth has not just Surges, but the physical enhancement of holding Stormlight

Dalinar is incredibly awesome, but he's not yet a proto Radiant at the time of Gavilars death (the Stormfather was working with Gavilar then) so no Stormlight boost. And Szeth seems extremely skilled too ... and he trained with Surges before becoming Truthless.

@Treamayne is likely right that Dalinar wouldn't have been wearing Shardplate even if sober.

[Duxredux]

I think Dalinar at the end of WoR was in better fighting shape mentally to deal with Szeth's Surgebinding tricks than the addicted, haunted wreck he was at the time of the banquet. Sober Dalinar at that time was not necessarily lucid. Dalinar in the throes of the Thrill is extremely hard to kill and a terrifying fighter, but he's also much, much easier to bait and manipulate. He probably would have provided little or no teamwork, support, or protection for Gavilar in that state (other than the classic saying that the best defense is a great offense)and would have relentlessly pursued Szeth, which may not have been very helpful against someone with Szeth's mobility and cunning. 

I will note that Dalinar's conclusion and fighting methods were operating off of false data, if Adolin passed on Kaladin's tip to go for the spine with his Shardblade. Kaladin was assuming Szeth's healing operated similar to his own, and could also heal from Shardblade wounds, and as far as they knew this was true. Maybe Dalinar would have fought differently if he knew he could wound. That said, Szeth completed his entire assassination list against kings and guards armed with Shards without getting hit by a Shardblade once. I think Dalinar was right that he wouldn't have been able to beat Szeth.