Feruchemy is end positive

[Adonlasium]

I think Feruchemy is end-positive and not end-negative. My reasoning is that if there was a Feruchemist orb that weighed 100 kilos and it stored half of its weight it would be reduced by 50%,  50 kilos.  If it were to in turn double its weight for an equal time, it would increase by 100%, or 100 kilos. That 50 kilos has to come from the spiritual realm or other external source. Thoughts?

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Adonlasium said:

 

I think Feruchemy is end-positive and not end-negative. My reasoning is that if there was a Feruchemist orb that weighed 100 kilos and it stored half of its weight it would be reduced by 50%,  50 kilos.  If it were to in turn double its weight for an equal time, it would increase by 100%, or 100 kilos. That 50 kilos has to come from the spiritual realm or other external source. Thoughts?

It wouldn't become 200 Kg it would be 150.

[Fezzik]

You can't summon extra mass from nowhere; in Feruchemy, if you weigh 100 kilos, and store 50 of them for an hour, you have a resevoir of 50 kilo-hours to use as you want. If you want to double your weight, you burn through your 50 kilo-hours in just .5 hours. You could conceivably (see alloy of law) burn through your 50 kilo-hours of weight in 0.01 hours to weigh 5000 extra kilograms. Mass is the easiest feruchemical attribute to talk about because we know how mass works, but you can store half of your sense of taste or smell for an hour in order to be able to smell half again as well for an hour. We just have no words to describe the units it would be measured in.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

7 hours ago, Fezzik said:

You can't summon extra mass from nowhere; in Feruchemy, if you weigh 100 kilos, and store 50 of them for an hour, you have a resevoir of 50 kilo-hours to use as you want. If you want to double your weight, you burn through your 50 kilo-hours in just .5 hours. You could conceivably (see alloy of law) burn through your 50 kilo-hours of weight in 0.01 hours to weigh 5000 extra kilograms. Mass is the easiest feruchemical attribute to talk about because we know how mass works, but you can store half of your sense of taste or smell for an hour in order to be able to smell half again as well for an hour. We just have no words to describe the units it would be measured in.

storing sight, it has been mentioned, causes a change in the range at which you see, going from nearsighted when storing to farsighted when tapping. the more you tap, the farther the farsight.

[Quantus he/him]

3 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

storing sight, it has been mentioned, causes a change in the range at which you see, going from nearsighted when storing to farsighted when tapping. the more you tap, the farther the farsight.

Just to clarify:  not "Farsighted" as in the RL medical condition requiring Reading Glasses, Farsighted as in eagle-eyed.  Tapping sight causes the edge of the Windwhisperer's vision to blur, and sacrifices immediate field of vision in favor of a more distant, binocular view.  When storing it makes the sight overall weaker in some way that can be remedied by glasses, but I dont think the weakening showed any preference to objects close or far away so I think it is more like a form of general Astigmatism.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Just to clarify:  not "Farsighted" as in the RL medical condition requiring Reading Glasses, Farsighted as in eagle-eyed.  Tapping sight causes the edge of the Windwhisperer's vision to blur, and sacrifices immediate field of vision in favor of a more distant, binocular view.  When storing it makes the sight overall weaker in some way that can be remedied by glasses, but I dont think the weakening showed any preference to objects close or far away so I think it is more like a form of general Astigmatism.

that's the same thing, that's why farsighted people in real life need glasses. You quoted the thing about it on the Coppermind, which says it sacrifices immediate vision. I'm not saying that its exactly like RL farsighted, but it is very close. If you sacrifice immediate vision, it becomes harder to see things up close, regardless of how it is sacrificed.

[Quantus he/him]

2 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

that's the same thing, that's why farsighted people in real life need glasses. You quoted the thing about it on the Coppermind, which says it sacrifices immediate vision. I'm not saying that its exactly like RL farsighted, but it is very close. If you sacrifice immediate vision, it becomes harder to see things up close, regardless of how it is sacrificed.

Those are not actually the same thing at all, which is why I wanted to clarify it.  Common "Farsightedness" is the inability to focus on things up close while having relatively normal vision at distances, because your eye's lens is out of focus and projecting things past the retina.  Every person that needs reading glasses (or otherwise only for activities up close) are technically Farsighted (unless there is something more exotic going, of course), and most of them got that way simply by surviving Life past 40. That's entirely distinct from the sort of telescopic vision that Feruchemy provides, which isn't actually a real effect in the animal kingdom as far as I can find.  Many animals can see at extreme detail at great distances (eagles being some of the best), but no animal literally zooms in to see that detail at the expense of peripheral vision.  Feruchemy is a lot more of a video-game sniper scope effect than anything, and when you're storing it your vision widens back to normal but then gets bad at all distances, rather that anything on the traditional nearsighted/farsighted spectrum.  In other words F-Tin is a slider for Detail Focus at the expense of Peripheral Vision (until it all gets bad, and I assume you can store up to full blindness), but not "Nearsighted vs Farsighted" as an optometrist would use the terms.  

The main reason I wanted to clarify it is make sure folks understood that it is not like Electrum has turned out to be (ie. Bi-Polar Disorder in a bottle, and giving you the ability to swing between a Depressed state and a Manic state) where both tapping and storing in large amounts can arguable be bad for you.  It's more useful for balancing yourself than providing a super-awesome magic Enhancement from either storing or tapping the way Tin and most other metals do.  Though Electrum probably has a future being Compounded and shared to keep space-ship crews from getting too depressed on long deep-space missions, right next to a Bronze/Bendalloy/Cadmium chamber offering standard  sci-fi cryo pod sleep.

[EmulatonStromenkiin he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Those are not actually the same thing at all, which is why I wanted to clarify it.  Common "Farsightedness" is the inability to focus on things up close while having relatively normal vision at distances, because your eye's lens is out of focus and projecting things past the retina.  Every person that needs reading glasses (or otherwise only for activities up close) are technically Farsighted (unless there is something more exotic going, of course), and most of them got that way simply by surviving Life past 40. That's entirely distinct from the sort of telescopic vision that Feruchemy provides, which isn't actually a real effect in the animal kingdom as far as I can find.  Many animals can see at extreme detail at great distances (eagles being some of the best), but no animal literally zooms in to see that detail at the expense of peripheral vision.  Feruchemy is a lot more of a video-game sniper scope effect than anything, and when you're storing it your vision widens back to normal but then gets bad at all distances, rather that anything on the traditional nearsighted/farsighted spectrum.  In other words F-Tin is a slider for Detail Focus at the expense of Peripheral Vision (until it all gets bad, and I assume you can store up to full blindness), but not "Nearsighted vs Farsighted" as an optometrist would use the terms.  

The main reason I wanted to clarify it is make sure folks understood that it is not like Electrum has turned out to be (ie. Bi-Polar Disorder in a bottle, and giving you the ability to swing between a Depressed state and a Manic state) where both tapping and storing in large amounts can arguable be bad for you.  It's more useful for balancing yourself than providing a super-awesome magic Enhancement from either storing or tapping the way Tin and most other metals do.  Though Electrum probably has a future being Compounded and shared to keep space-ship crews from getting too depressed on long deep-space missions, right next to a Bronze/Bendalloy/Cadmium chamber offering standard  sci-fi cryo pod sleep.

I was not aware how farsightedness works.

[Adonlasium]

on further re-reading i came across the passage where it states that it gives decreasing returns so this might be why

 

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

Feruchemy is end-neutral, so long as you do not destroy the metal you store in. Which is really what the first comment said.

[Frustration]

25 minutes ago, Adonlasium said:

on further re-reading i came across the passage where it states that it gives decreasing returns so this might be why

9 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Feruchemy is end-neutral, so long as you do not destroy the metal you store in. Which is really what the first comment said.

That's not quite what it means.

If you store 50% of your weight for an hour you can wegih 150% for an hour.

However if you try to use that same store to become 200% heavier you could only do so for less than 30 minutes, rather than for a full thirty you would be able to without the diminishment.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Frustration

[Lego Mistborn he/him]

True that it may not be what you meant, but it is full canon that Feruchemy is end-neutral and works in the manner you describes(per Ars Arcanum).

[mathiau he/him]

51 minutes ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

True that it may not be what you meant, but it is full canon that Feruchemy is end-neutral and works in the manner you describes(per Ars Arcanum).

It's also full canon that Iron Frruchemy require energy from Pres and Ruin to compensate the kinetic energy changes

[Adonlasium]

I see 

[cometaryorbit]

On 4/29/2022 at 5:48 PM, mathiau said:

It's also full canon that Iron Frruchemy require energy from Pres and Ruin to compensate the kinetic energy changes

End-positive/neutral/negative have to do with the gain or loss (or neither) of Investiture. An end-neutral system can still draw energy as long as the Investiture in the system is constant (like powering machines with Awakening).

And there's WoB that the end-positive/neutral/negative thing is an in world classification that may not be totally perfect.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

End-positive/neutral/negative have to do with the gain or loss (or neither) of Investiture. An end-neutral system can still draw energy as long as the Investiture in the system is constant (like powering machines with Awakening).

Energy is a type of investiture

Quote

And there's WoB that the end-positive/neutral/negative thing is an in world classification that may not be totally perfect.

True

[cometaryorbit]

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Energy is a type of investiture

Kind of, but I think not in the relevant sense.

Matter, energy, and Investiture are all *interconvertible* in the Cosmere, just as matter and energy are in RL physics.

But that doesn't mean the Investiture equivalent of matter or energy is "available" *as* Investiture, either Innate or Kinetic. Someone's Innate Investiture is a soul thing, distinct from the Investiture-equivalent of the mass-energy of their body.

Kind of like how the mass of a 1kg rock in RL theoretically represents 9 X 10^16 joules of energy, but there's no way to get at that energy short of an equal mass of antimatter.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kind of, but I think not in the relevant sense.

Matter, energy, and Investiture are all *interconvertible* in the Cosmere, just as matter and energy are in RL physics.

But that doesn't mean the Investiture equivalent of matter or energy is "available" *as* Investiture, either Innate or Kinetic. Someone's Innate Investiture is a soul thing, distinct from the Investiture-equivalent of the mass-energy of their body.

Kind of like how the mass of a 1kg rock in RL theoretically represents 9 X 10^16 joules of energy, but there's no way to get at that energy short of an equal mass of antimatter.

I really don't get what you're saying. Yes, matter energy is harder to use than free energy but I don't see how that matters, after all some types of free energy are harder to use than other (for example it's easier to use kinetic energy than thermic energy)

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

12 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I really don't get what you're saying. Yes, matter energy is harder to use than free energy but I don't see how that matters, after all some types of free energy are harder to use than other (for example it's easier to use kinetic energy than thermic energy)

I think @cometaryorbit is saying (and cometartyorbit, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you), that the Investiture has to be in the form of Investiture rather than in the matter or energy of the item, and presumably also needs to be shaped correctly or at least of the right type to fuel the magic powering the device, in order for the device to function. To use your thermal vs kinetic example, thermal energy is in fact related to kinetic due to the intensity of vibration the atoms are experiencing, thus thermal energy is kinetic energy at the scale of the atoms and molecules. But that motion is random, which is why the item, despite being hot, doesn't move. If all those random movements suddenly were focused in the same direction, however, if they all aligned, then the item would "cool" but also move in their unified direction. Thus even though a cool moving object and a hot stationary one (all relative to some reference frame) have the same energy one of them can make use of it and the other can't. Matter is composed of energy, and energy and matter and Investiture in the Cosmere are all different phases of the same thing, but for the magic to work that energy must be in the correct form - Investiture - of the correct type, and the system must be able to absorb and use it. It can't just convert the existing mass or energy of the item into usable Investiture unless there is some other system in place to do that. All objects are "hot" in the Cosmere, with Investiture bound into them, but some are "hotter" than others, but that "heat" needs to be focused and directed, and unless such systems appear to allow them to go from "hot" to "fast," most items will require something else to give them a "push," and be unable to use their stored power bound in their ordinary matter.

[cometaryorbit]

 

55 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I really don't get what you're saying. Yes, matter energy is harder to use than free energy but I don't see how that matters, after all some types of free energy are harder to use than other (for example it's easier to use kinetic energy than thermic energy)

Basically, I think that when - say - Khriss in the Ars Arcanum says "Investiture", she generally really means something like "Investiture that is not bound up in currently being matter or energy and thus is available to be involved in magic".

Similarly, when how Invested something is matters - e.g. for how difficult it is to Push or Pull Allomantically - I don't think Investiture bound up in mass-energy is considered.

32 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I think @cometaryorbit is saying (and cometartyorbit, please correct me if I am misunderstanding you), that the Investiture has to be in the form of Investiture rather than in the matter or energy of the item, and presumably also needs to be shaped correctly or at least of the right type to fuel the magic powering the device, in order for the device to function. To use your thermal vs kinetic example, thermal energy is in fact related to kinetic due to the intensity of vibration the atoms are experiencing, thus thermal energy is kinetic energy at the scale of the atoms and molecules. But that motion is random, which is why the item, despite being hot, doesn't move.

Yeah, this.

Much like Sazed's analogy of a rock vs atium in the Hero of Ages epigraphs- technically the rock is all made of Ruin and Preservation Investiture too, but it's all kind of self-canceling-out and thus irrelevant.