A Kandra's Worst Enemy; Soulcasters

[Trusk'our]

Kandra can hide themselves from most things by changing their appearance. However, it may be possible for a Soulcaster to find a Kandra hidden amongst the people of society by peering into the cognitive realm; it works on the Masked Ones, so why not a Kandra disguise?

In addition, a Soulcaster could likely kill a Kandra by Soulcasting their body into an inanimate substance. Or, if they're feeling particularly evil, a Soulcaster could change the metal type of the Kandra's spikes, which would likely render them unusable by the Kandra, dooming them to insanity.

[HSuperLee]

And here we got Trusk, giving me even more reasons to dislike how powerful soulcasting is written.

[Trusk'our]

31 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

And here we got Trusk, giving me even more reasons to dislike how powerful soulcasting is written.

At least it isn't Aon Dor.

[HSuperLee]

24 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

At least it isn't Aon Dor.

I'm actually okay with Aon Dor. That takes years of study and practice to master, and often requires dedicated time to set up specific or especially powerful effects, plus its balanced by being location-locked. And even without the location lock, I'm not sure I would dislike it as much as the win button that is soulcasting.

[cometaryorbit]

Well, Bondsmith powers appear to be even more crazy, and there's several Orders we've seen basically nothing from ... I think Rosharan Investiture users get much more powerful overall than what we generally see on other Shardworlds. There's at least one WOB that they're not intended to be "balanced" against one another.

And there are probably defenses against soulcasting as technology and understanding advance. Can you soulcast someone with aluminum in their clothing (same principle as aluminum-lined hats in Mistborn Era 2)? Being strongly enough Invested might be a defense in itself; so might Invested armor like Shardplate.

[+Bzhydack]

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Kandra can hide themselves from most things by changing their appearance. However, it may be possible for a Soulcaster to find a Kandra hidden amongst the people of society by peering into the cognitive realm; it works on the Masked Ones, so why not a Kandra disguise?

In addition, a Soulcaster could likely kill a Kandra by Soulcasting their body into an inanimate substance. Or, if they're feeling particularly evil, a Soulcaster could change the metal type of the Kandra's spikes, which would likely render them unusable by the Kandra, dooming them to insanity.

Probably yes, identification should be possible, Kandra's soul is different from human soul. Im sceptical only about soulcssting spikes, they are Invested so this can be little more dificult.

15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

And there are probably defenses against soulcasting as technology and understanding advance. Can you soulcast someone with aluminum in their clothing (same principle as aluminum-lined hats in Mistborn Era 2)? Being strongly enough Invested might be a defense in itself; so might Invested armor like Shardplate.

I have a feeling that medalions granting A-Aluminum could become very popular....

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

Soulcasting is reliant on identity, right? so if someone has a stronger identity(i.e. taping identity) they're harder to soulcast.

[Trusk'our]

22 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

Soulcasting is reliant on identity, right? so if someone has a stronger identity(i.e. taping identity) they're harder to soulcast.

I think that this is a reasonable guess. Not to mention the fact that if you are tapping Identity from an Aluminummind, you will also be extra hard to Soulcast because you will be more invested at the time.

I also believe that Allomantic copper may be extra useful to protect one's self from being Soulcast, as Allomantic copper protects you from being manipulated by an external source. This could, then, mean that Soulcasting you would be more difficult because your body is harder to "convince" to change.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

 Im sceptical only about soulcssting spikes, they are Invested so this can be little more dificult.

Hemalurgic spikes aren't particularly invested normally, at least compared to many other invested objects and entities.

Quote

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

Questioner

Is that gonna be the answer for all of these?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably!

Questioner

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on...

Questioner

Not in a person.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things.

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

Questioner

A Half-shard?

Brandon Sanderson

A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate.

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

Questioner

Far beyond metal inside a person? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is.

Questioner

If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

Questioner

A soulstamped piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

 

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I think that this is a reasonable guess. Not to mention the fact that if you are tapping Identity from an Aluminummind, you will also be extra hard to Soulcast because you will be more invested at the time.

I also believe that Allomantic copper may be extra useful to protect one's self from being Soulcast, as Allomantic copper protects you from being manipulated by an external source. This could, then, mean that Soulcasting you would be more difficult because your body is harder to "convince" to change.

Hemalurgic spikes aren't particularly invested normally, at least compared to many other invested objects and entities.

Kandra spikes might be more invested than normal ones.

[cometaryorbit]

 Wax can also see metal lines going to a Hemalurgic spike in Shadows of Self (though he notices they're weaker than usual). A Hemalurgic spike is probably less Invested than an entire human soul (since it holds just part of a spiritweb), so if Jasnah can Soulcast humans, she can probably Soulcast a spike.

[Trusk'our]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:15 PM, cometaryorbit said:

 Wax can also see metal lines going to a Hemalurgic spike in Shadows of Self (though he notices they're weaker than usual). A Hemalurgic spike is probably less Invested than an entire human soul (since it holds just part of a spiritweb), so if Jasnah can Soulcast humans, she can probably Soulcast a spike.

Actually, I've been wondering about that scene; Was is just a normal power-level Coinshot (and Skimmer), so if TenSoon's spikes were in his body, and they were invested, how would Wax have been able to sense them at all via Steelsight?

Doesn't make any sense to me. Did I miss something?

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

Relatively sure that wax is higher power than normal coinshots, either through Harmony's intervention, or through savanthood

[WandererNearby]

Also, Kandra may be more invested than the typical human is so Soulcasting their spikes may be harder. Finally, I have one question for you. Why? Why would someone who has the ability to soulcast a Kandra's spike not just Soulcast the Kandra? 

[StanLemon]

I don't think the Masked Ones are a good comparison to Kandra when it comes to if Lightweavers, Elsecallers, or Willshapers can see through their disguise. First off are Fused are more more like spren than living souls and we haven't seen any real indication that they can differentiate the types of living souls from each other. Also Masked Ones use illusion vs the actual physical change Kandra go through

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

I don't think the Masked Ones are a good comparison to Kandra when it comes to if Lightweavers, Elsecallers, or Willshapers can see through their disguise. First off are Fused are more more like spren than living souls and we haven't seen any real indication that they can differentiate the types of living souls from each other. Also Masked Ones use illusion vs the actual physical change Kandra go through

So a kandra can even replicate the DNA profile in a tissue sample to use as a viable donor for a subject.  How does that translate to the cognitive realm though.  Is a soulcaster seeing the cognitive self of a thing / person?   Does a kandras transformation only go as deep as even DNA.  Physical vs cognitive vs spiritual realm messiness here.  I really want the kandra to be protected from soulcasting but I don't know if even perfectly replicating down to the very cell of a target would be enough to stop their cognitive self from being seen... 

Would a kandras disguise cross over into shadesmar or would a kandra revert to the blob on the other side?  

 

A side note... I have pictured kandra with aluminum true bodies and I guess they could even hold a skin deep layer of aluminum perhaps around the vast majority of their body as well to protect themselves.  

If a kandra kept their brain in their leg and a layer of aluminum surrounding it what would happen to themselves anyway?   

Kandra break a lot of rules.  Aluminum has some hidden rules and it appears soulcasting has an entire new set of rules for itself anyways.  

[+robardin]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:41 PM, Trusk'our said:

Kandra can hide themselves from most things by changing their appearance. However, it may be possible for a Soulcaster to find a Kandra hidden amongst the people of society by peering into the cognitive realm; it works on the Masked Ones, so why not a Kandra disguise?

In addition, a Soulcaster could likely kill a Kandra by Soulcasting their body into an inanimate substance. Or, if they're feeling particularly evil, a Soulcaster could change the metal type of the Kandra's spikes, which would likely render them unusable by the Kandra, dooming them to insanity.

Well, there are Soulcasters, and then there are SOULCASTERS.

I mean, there’s Kaza, the Soulcaster with the fabrial in one of the Oathbringer interludes… She was a savant to the point of already unraveling into smoke herself, but she’s not going to be peering into the CR to see through illusions or the “true identity” of physical shapeshifters (whatever a kandra would exhibit there, beyond the typical glowing soul of a living being?), much less transforming the metal in a hemalurgic spike inside a body.

And then there’s Perpendicular Jasnah, who Soulcast anything and everything she pleased with such ridiculous ease at Thaylen Fields that it has permanently made me regard that level of Surgebinding as having the most terrifying destructive potential of all.

(Well, that was until I saw what a Bondsmith Unchained could do, in terms of Crazy Tezim stealing Nahel bonds and “grounding” Windrunners to the earth while outnumbered and in the middle of a Shardblade fight…)

Still, what you say that “a” Soulcaster could do, is actually going to be an extremely rare combination of a high level (Fourth Ideal) Elsecaller wielding nigh-unlimited Stormlight for a period of time. In which case, a lot more than a kandra bystander should be terrified of getting in the way.

[Pathfinder]

So just hopping in to point out a few things.

 

1. Kandra spikes are just helping the kandra connect their three selves for sapiance so they wouldn't be any more invested than any other spike

 

2. Having said that, a spike with the blessing of presence might help resist though I would point out it does not make kandra completely immune from manipulation of a mistborn, and since we know Roshar is higher in investiture than scadrial, I would imagine that wouldn't be a massive impediment to a soulcaster

 

3. Regarding Jasnah's capabilities with soulcasting, she accomplishes three things in quick succession before Renarin sees and then feels the effects of the perpendicularity. She:

a. Soulcasts a human, which then hits another human spreading the soulcasting, hitting another human spreading the soulcasting

b. Soulcasts a wall to smoke

c. Soulcasts steps from air connected to a wall while actively running up them 

 

4. We also know ranged soulcasting is a normal feature of soulcasting and lightweavers could learn how to do it if they trained at it. Elsecallers are just better at it.

 

5. Personally I don't see soulcasting as overpowered. I see it as very versatile and can be strong in the right hands.

 

Personal musings as an aside. I wonder if kandra might be MORE susceptible to soulcasting than others due to mutability. It has been commented before how, especially the older generations, they lack much of a personal "identity ", often losing themselves to the part or adopting aspects of the individual they impersonate. If I recall correctly, that was why kandra would return to the homeland. To try and get some of "themselves" back. Same was commented on regarding Bleeder prior to going rogue. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Pathfinder