Is Moash redeamable?

[Shinwarrior]

 

When I say this do I mean should Moash get a redemption arch? No, not in the way that you're thinking. I do feel that Moash is beginning to lose what makes him a compelling bad guy. Many understandably hate him for what he has done but I feel that the things he has done most recently have begun to be less captivating(I'll explain what I mean in a minute). So, my question remains, could he be redeemed and become a more compelling character. 

My explanation why he is less compelling. In WoR when he conspires against Elhokar there is the belief from his perspective that he is doing something that will bring revenge to his grandparents but also borders on helpful (The example of a surgeon removing the infected part of the body is a good example to me). It may not be the best decision, but it's comprehendable there is an argument as to why it could be helpful. Current Moash seems like a much simpler person. "Give my pain to Odium and get a big bad guy sticker stuck on my head." He'll kill people cause he can, but why? I don't think that Odium's influence is a good enough excuse. I get the feeling that he's on the same path as Amaram, who started out super compelling but became a simple man and was killed off. It just left me wanting and I don't want it to happen again. 

When I think of what Moash is missing a couple of classic villain's come to mind. Thanos/Killmonger/(even Todium) all had a purpose that they were working towards albeit a bit extreme but in thier minds is for the greater good. The greater good can be debated, but that's what makes them compelling. Right now Moash feels like a Valda/Joker type person who just does bad things. You bring them up and it's a consensus that, "Yeah, they suck". I know there is a Moash did nothing wrong crowd but unless Moash gets a bit of a 'redemption' arch in a way that makes his character more compelling he seems to be fading away into a sunset of badness. 

As for me, I do believe that Moash is redeemable. I listened to the most recent "Intentionally Blank" podcast episode where Brandon and Dan discuss the Wheel of Time and Brandon mentions a couple of things he would have done in the last episodes. They're great ideas, our man still has it. [Wheel of Time spoilers.. kinda]

Spoiler

(a couple that I remember: Egwene and Nyneave using the power to save people but failing so they realize they need to go to the white tower. Lan leaving to go get Moraine but deciding to come back for Nyneave plus a couple ideas about Perrin)

. So, as for me and my belief... I think he can do it, my fingers are crossed that it happens. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Shinwarrior

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

HMMMM

I personally am in between the two groups here in the shard the "MOASH DID NOTHING WRONG" crowd and the "MOASH SUCKS SO MUCH" crowd. I personally think he needs a redemption like say at the end of book five he says "It just took my eyes to be taken so I could see my mistakes"

[CryoZenith]

Moash did a lot for me even in RoW. In the indirect sense that I was emotionally invested in the well being of Teft, so his murder of Teft and Phendorana had a strong impact on me.

I guess the point I'm getting across is that a character (especially an antagonist) doesn't need to be compelling in order to make a story more compelling by acting inside of it. Ideally you'd have both (always? not sure) but... yeah.

[Frustration]

I think a decent part of the fanbase will hate him no matter what happens.

 

Personally I don't think he could be any less intresting, but an inadequet redemption arc might do it.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Shinwarrior said:

 

When I say this do I mean should Moash get a redemption arch? No, not in the way that you're thinking. I do feel that Moash is beginning to lose what makes him a compelling bad guy. Many understandably hate him for what he has done but I feel that the things he has done most recently have begun to be less captivating(I'll explain what I mean in a minute). So, my question remains, could he be redeemed and become a more compelling character. 

My explanation why he is less compelling. In WoR when he conspires against Elhokar there is the belief from his perspective that he is doing something that will bring revenge to his grandparents but also borders on helpful (The example of a surgeon removing the infected part of the body is a good example to me). It may not be the best decision, but it's comprehendable there is an argument as to why it could be helpful. Current Moash seems like a much simpler person. "Give my pain to Odium and get a big bad guy sticker stuck on my head." He'll kill people cause he can, but why? I don't think that Odium's influence is a good enough excuse. I get the feeling that he's on the same path as Amaram, who started out super compelling but became a simple man and was killed off. It just left me wanting and I don't want it to happen again. 

When I think of what Moash is missing a couple of classic villain's come to mind. Thanos/Killmonger/(even Todium) all had a purpose that they were working towards albeit a bit extreme but in thier minds is for the greater good. The greater good can be debated, but that's what makes them compelling. Right now Moash feels like a Valda/Joker type person who just does bad things. You bring them up and it's a consensus that, "Yeah, they suck". I know there is a Moash did nothing wrong crowd but unless Moash gets a bit of a 'redemption' arch in a way that makes his character more compelling he seems to be fading away into a sunset of badness. 

As for me, I do believe that Moash is redeemable. I listened to the most recent "Intentionally Blank" podcast episode where Brandon and Dan discuss the Wheel of Time and Brandon mentions a couple of things he would have done in the last episodes. They're great ideas, our man still has it. (a couple that I remember: Egwene and Nyneave using the power to save people but failing so they realize they need to go to the white tower. Lan leaving to go get Moraine but deciding to come back for Nyneave plus a couple ideas about Perrin). So, as for me and my belief... I think he can do it, my fingers are crossed that it happens. 

Yes he is but first he has to acknowledge that he is wrong and what he has done is wrong and he has to desire to do better. 

[Anomander Rake]

Valda is a great comparison to current Moash's motivation, not there.

Also, I'd probably edit and spoiler bar that last sentences.  We def have a lot of WoT fans here, and I doubt everyone here who wants to has seen the show yet

Edited January 28, 2022 by Anomander Rake
a word

[Karger]

Moash is less a person and more of a science experiment at this point.  I more interesting end for him would be TOdium just returning his feelings to him and just leaving him there.  Kaladin could then do the honorable thing and chop whatever is left of Moash at that point into nice little bits.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Karger

[CryoZenith]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

Moash is less a person and more of a science experiment at this point.  I more interesting end for him would be TOdium just returning his feelings to him and just leaving him there.  Kaladin could then do the honorable thing and chop whatever is left of Moash at that point into nice little bits.

Come to think of it, Taravangian is definitely the kind of person to be like "This Moash dude is insanely unreliable of a tool. I know he's Connected to me and all, but it'd be better for my plan if El was my Vyre again or something" and give'em the shaft.

I'm not sure I would like his end to be *quite* like you describe, though. To me it would feel a bit off and arguably even hypocritical if Moash's death was basically a mercy kill by Kaladin, considering that we view Moash evil for trying to "mercy kill" Kaladin. Like, yes, it's not the same thing, but it's too close for comfort for me.

Edited January 28, 2022 by CryoZenith

[ConfusedCow]

He could regret his choices, see that he was wrong.  I think he already does.  What he can't do is undo what he did.  He's redeemable but not forgivable.  He can never again eat stew among friends.  He might hope for a good death, to die trying to make ammends.  

[Quantus]

I still think he's a great foil to Kaladin, as the example of the opposite path.  Im actually really curious to see where things go with his new blindness and his apparent connection to the mysterious El, bearing El's former title.  

Also I think El is

Spoiler

a Human Fused

, which if true opens a lot of interesting plot paths.  

[CryoZenith]

58 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Also I think El is

  Reveal hidden contents

a Human Fused

, which if true opens a lot of interesting plot paths.  

Why do you think so?

Spoiler

To me the way he speaks about humanity, while respectful, sounds more like an outsider looking in, than a former insider looking back.

 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, CryoZenith said:

Why do you think so?

  Reveal hidden contents

To me the way he speaks about humanity, while respectful, sounds more like an outsider looking in, than a former insider looking back.

 

I see where you're coming from, but I took that as less

Spoiler

Outside looking in so much as former looking Back.  He'd have spent countless years and lifetimes inhabiting Singer bodies, but more than any of the others he doesnt seem to actually think of that form as His, given the way he rips out his carapace every time to replace it with metal.  Granted I also kinda want him to be a former Scadrian who's augmenting himself with Hemalurgy each rebirth, but that's 98% fanboy hope rather than a real theory.  

 

Im not sure why I started spoiler-tagging this line of conversation, in retrospect.  Do we need it?

[HSuperLee]

So to show my biases a bit, so that y'all may decide if they negate my opinion or not, but I don't actually believe in the "moral event horizon" where someone can do something so evil or so terrible that they cannot be redeemed. As long as a person is alive, they can change the direction of their life and become a different person. That is our nature as continuous temporal beings rather than being spirits or Shards or even Spren; we are always changing and won't be the same person tomorrow that we are today.

So, with that bias in mind, my obvious answer is that yes, I believe Moash can be redeemed. The more complicated questions get into the both in-world and real-world questions of should he be redeemed. From an real-world perspective, I'm not sure he should. He's gone far enough into embracing evil actions and thinking that I feel it would take a massive page count to satisfyingly turn him around, and I'm not convinced there's enough page count in Stormlight for that considering all that still has to happen. Maybe he could be redeemed in the back half of SA, but I don't think the front half has anywhere near enough room to do it properly.

From an in-world perspective, I will make the argument that it is always better for an evil person to become good than for them to die still evil. But that said, I also believe in justice (see the profile pic if you need to be convinced about how strongly I do) and thus I believe that redemption, no matter how sincere, doesn't always warrant letting a person who has done evil live. Moash is a murderer and a traitor, and whether or not he is redeemed justice demands a murderer and a traitor's death (I'm not debating anyone on the death penalty in this thread. Just know that I believe in it, and if you don't replace what I just said with whatever punishment you think justice demands of murderers and traitors, for this conversation the specifics aren't relevant). Now, there's also a difference in punishing evil and preventing evil from being enacted. If there is a situation where the choice is (and Kaladin will likely have to face this choice) between killing Moash to protect the innocent or letting Moash harm the innocent, it is better to kill him then and be done with it, even if it would end the possibility of future redemption.

TLDR; I don't have an exact answer to the question because so much of it is going to be based on circumstances that occur as the story moves forward. Ultimately, all I can say is that Moash can be redeemed, but there are far more likely circumstances where he is not. As a reader, I would be satisfied with either so long as it is well written.

[Quantus]

7 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

So to show my biases a bit, so that y'all may decide if they negate my opinion or not, but I don't actually believe in the "moral event horizon" where someone can do something so evil or so terrible that they cannot be redeemed. As long as a person is alive, they can change the direction of their life and become a different person. That is our nature as continuous temporal beings rather than being spirits or Shards or even Spren; we are always changing and won't be the same person tomorrow that we are today.

So, with that bias in mind, my obvious answer is that yes, I believe Moash can be redeemed. The more complicated questions get into the both in-world and real-world questions of should he be redeemed. From an real-world perspective, I'm not sure he should. He's gone far enough into embracing evil actions and thinking that I feel it would take a massive page count to satisfyingly turn him around, and I'm not convinced there's enough page count in Stormlight for that considering all that still has to happen. Maybe he could be redeemed in the back half of SA, but I don't think the front half has anywhere near enough room to do it properly.

From an in-world perspective, I will make the argument that it is always better for an evil person to become good than for them to die still evil. But that said, I also believe in justice (see the profile pic if you need to be convinced about how strongly I do) and thus I believe that redemption, no matter how sincere, doesn't always warrant letting a person who has done evil live. Moash is a murderer and a traitor, and whether or not he is redeemed justice demands a murderer and a traitor's death (I'm not debating anyone on the death penalty in this thread. Just know that I believe in it, and if you don't replace what I just said with whatever punishment you think justice demands of murderers and traitors, for this conversation the specifics aren't relevant). Now, there's also a difference in punishing evil and preventing evil from being enacted. If there is a situation where the choice is (and Kaladin will likely have to face this choice) between killing Moash to protect the innocent or letting Moash harm the innocent, it is better to kill him then and be done with it, even if it would end the possibility of future redemption.

TLDR; I don't have an exact answer to the question because so much of it is going to be based on circumstances that occur as the story moves forward. Ultimately, all I can say is that Moash can be redeemed, but there are far more likely circumstances where he is not. As a reader, I would be satisfied with either so long as it is well written.

This is where I land as well.  I believe that it's possible, because he is still alive and capable of choices.  I'd even say I believe it's possible because Brandon is one of the most talented writers around and I think it's within his skill to do it in a satisfying way.  I have no idea what that would look like, how many books worth of developments it would take, or if he'd live many moments past whatever did it (Self-sacrifice is a classic for this sort of turn-around).  And I dont know if it would be more satisfying than other outcomes (comeuppance, etc)

[Karger]

8 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

I'm not sure I would like his end to be *quite* like you describe, though. To me it would feel a bit off and arguably even hypocritical if Moash's death was basically a mercy kill by Kaladin, considering that we view Moash evil for trying to "mercy kill" Kaladin. Like, yes, it's not the same thing, but it's too close for comfort for me.

A boy can only hope.  In all honesty I think Kaladin's choice when prevented with such an individual would be quite interesting.  Is it more merciful to let Moash take the easy way out or more honorable to keep him around and try and help him?  Should Kaladin strive to accept Moash's understanding of moral behavior and apply that to him or should he retain his own standards and use that to guide his actions?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Karger

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:29 AM, Quantus said:

And I dont know if it would be more satisfying than other outcomes (comeuppance, etc)

Tbh I honestly can't think of other outcomes that would be satisfying atm, though Brandon's a talented author and could definitely work something out.

• Kaladin's already sworn the Fourth and moved past the main hurdle I'd expected a confrontation with Moash to be relevant to in book four, and Moash had his breakdown where he just kinda crumples pathetically and admits how much he hates himself for his actions (for a short time anyway). So a Kaladin-Moash fight like everyone (me included) expected prior to RoW now feels to me like it would have all of its oomph already taken out, and would just be retreading ground for both of them.
• Another Navani-Moash conflict similarly feels like it'd be old for the same reasons, it was already the climax to RoW (and "he's wrong, the leaders of a nation don't bear any responsibility for harm they cause, I just know it even if I can't think of any reasons!" like already happened with their confrontation is far from a satisfying answer to his grievances...)
• Could have a confrontation with Dalinar but honestly that would probably just feel both hypocritical and somewhat out-of-nowhere when Taravangian is already set to be the one with a big thematic confrontation against Dalinar instead, in my opinion
• Redemption-by-sacrifice imo only works effectively as part of a bigger climax to a thematic rivalry (and I don't think Brandon is the type to pull it cheaply without one), so I don't think it would work without any of the above
• I guess you could do something with Gavinor but I think that if Gavinor and Moash do have a conflict it'll be a "cycle of retribution" thing in the back half alongside a slow burn redemption, not something in book 5. Can't see any other way it wouldn't just come across as a raging hypocrisy on the part of the characters for Gavinor to kill Moash in a vengeance-fueled rage being okay but Moash killing Elhokar for vengeance for his grandparents being unforgivable.

So a redemption that starts in the front half and continues into the back half (whether to succeed or be cut short by Gav) is the only ending for him I can think of after RoW that wouldn't come with major structural and/or thematic issues, personally. Now, again, Brandon's a skilled writer, so I think it's pretty likely he'll think of something different that works, but as things currently stand I can't imagine what it'll be. Though I think a successful redemption that ends with him as a main character would be some great flexing of authorial chops on Brandon's part, if he chooses to take that route.

(One of my favorite crack theories is that the reason Brandon is so cagey about the Dustbringer character, only willing to say it's "really weird" and "really complicated", is that "Ash" for book eight actually means two characters, Shalash in the past and Moash in the present. Is it likely? No. Would it be glorious if Brandon managed to pull such a thing off, twisting the fandoms' collective opinions back and forth that heavily? Definitely.)

[LuckyJim]

I think it's a complicated question. Do I want Moash to rejoin Bridge 4 in any capacity? No, absolutely not, but I would like him to have some sort of positive character growth. I think what I'd like most is a version of the story where Moash just withdraws from the conflict entirely and begins putting himself back together over the timeskip before starting book 6 ready to start confronting his past and do better this time. It could potentially offer some really interesting plot beats in how various characters react to this, and could potentially put the ideals of the story to the test. Does everyone deserve a chance to get better or do our protagonists get to pick and choose who does based on how much they like them? I still don't want him to necessarily join the coalition, but with the listeners gaining power I think there's definitely room in the story for people to oppose Odium without simply merging with the Kholins.

But is he actually redeemable? I still say yes for a few reasons. One because a big theme of the series is people turning around no matter how bad they used to be. From principled monsters like Szeth to small minded cowards like Venli, I don't see why Moash couldn't be one of them. Secondly he's a fictional character, his actions are determined by what works for the story.

That being said, I think Brandon only intends for him to be the audience hate-sink, who's arc mainly serves to spur on Kaladin, so I think he'll probably just get killed off in book 5. Maybe Kaladin will somehow inspire him to turn things around at the last minute but he'll only end up sacrificing himself. But then again, maybe he'll want to explore his new blindness like he did with Rysn's paralysis, so who knows.

[Kandrafish]

I really think it is funny to see how Moash now serves a light-eyes who has sacrificed countless lives of those beneath him.

Putty the irony aside, though. I think Moash and Taravangian's ideals align more than Moash and Rayse's... But, honestly, I don't know.

I think Moash is going to serve as a familiar viewpoint who can interact with and help develop these new characters. El and Taravangian with the intent of Odium and perhaps even Ulim. With Venli gone from Odium's team, it seems like Moash would be the best source for foreshadowing about what the enemy is planning in the last 10 days.

I think there are 3 main options.

1-Taravangian wins Moash over and Moash fights for him (he realizes he doesn't need some motive like revenge or he will take out his revenge on all light-eyes and the heralds etc...) --> No redemption (in the 5th book)

2-Taravangian asks Moash to do something so ruthless that even Moash cannot do it (i.e. kill someone who is defenseless because it will make things workout better in the end and Moash sees his grandparents in this choice and cannot do it) --> Part redemption ( for now)

3- Taravangian realizes that if he pushes Moash towards redemption and Kaladin sees this, Kaladin might try to help Moash... This seems the same as part 1... Until BAM! Taravangian kills Moash "because he is buddies with Kaladin" in order to make Kaladin so dejected that he is not useful to Dalinar's Coalition and the "talk to Ishar plan" is ruined.                                                               --> Evil Taravangian plan makes Moash a pawn (Moash dead)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Do I want Moash to rejoin Bridge 4 in any capacity? No, absolutely not, but I would like him to have some sort of positive character growth.

100%, even if he does develop and get better, he still willingly turned his back on them (prior even to the likely Odious influence in Oathbringer) and then killed their friend. Improvement does not have to mean forgiveness nor forgetting.

3 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I think what I'd like most is a version of the story where Moash just withdraws from the conflict entirely and begins putting himself back together over the timeskip before starting book 6 ready to start confronting his past and do better this time. It could potentially offer some really interesting plot beats in how various characters react to this, and could potentially put the ideals of the story to the test. Does everyone deserve a chance to get better or do our protagonists get to pick and choose who does based on how much they like them? I still don't want him to necessarily join the coalition, but with the listeners gaining power I think there's definitely room in the story for people to oppose Odium without simply merging with the Kholins.

Agreed, it'd be good for him to find his own path.

3 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

That being said, I think Brandon only intends for him to be the audience hate-sink, who's arc mainly serves to spur on Kaladin, so I think he'll probably just get killed off in book 5. Maybe Kaladin will somehow inspire him to turn things around at the last minute but he'll only end up sacrificing himself. But then again, maybe he'll want to explore his new blindness like he did with Rysn's paralysis, so who knows.

The blindness is an interesting wrench in things. Certainly feels like setup for something big, but can't say specifically what.

1 hour ago, Kandrafish said:

3- Taravangian realizes that if he pushes Moash towards redemption and Kaladin sees this, Kaladin might try to help Moash... This seems the same as part 1... Until BAM! Taravangian kills Moash "because he is buddies with Kaladin" in order to make Kaladin so dejected that he is not useful to Dalinar's Coalition and the "talk to Ishar plan" is ruined.                                                               --> Evil Taravangian plan makes Moash a pawn (Moash dead)

Tbh this feels to me like it'd be repetitive after Kaladin's Oathbringer and Rhythm of War arcs. Not to say that, from an in-world perspective, it wouldn't have a shot at working, but from a narrative one it would imo feel too much like a step back.

[Olmund]

I wouldn't mind if Moash had a redemption arc (I think Brandon could pull it off, though I also think he might not pull it off). That said, there have been several despicable characters who have been (at least partially) redeemed: Venli, Gaz, etc., -- and there were other interesting candidates for redemption that were killed off, i.e., Amaram (prior to the end of Oathbringer), Ialai Sadeas (prior to RoW), etc. I don't think we need to have every villainous character either redeemed or dead by the end of the story -- that would be too contrived and tidy. If Moash continues to be alive but irreparably broken (at least through the end of the first half), that would likely be more believable than trying to shoehorn him into a heroic (or semi-heroic) role.

[CamilleDesmoulins]

Most of of our main characters are Kholins. Dalinar, is directly or indirectly responsible for mass murder and genocide, and Elhokar, who was clearly being shaped on a redemption arc pre-death, was directly responsible for judicial murder and genocide. Even both Adolin and Shallan are murderers, and Jasnah is likely responsible for several extralegal deaths as well (she considered killing Aesudan). 

Moash is responsible for trying to assassinate Elhokar (honestly justified), killing Elhokar and Teft in battle, murdering Jezrien, the two prisoners in the basement of Hearthstone, and the unconscious Radiant in Urithiru, and suicide baiting Kaladin. Objectively, he’s done far less than Dalinar and Elhokar, and maybe less than Jasnah. 

[Medium]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:28 PM, Shinwarrior said:

should Moash get a redemption arc

no