Is Jasnah a traitor?

[ConfusedCow]

               In my experience, paranoid people have secrets.  We know Jasnah is ruthless.  Jasnah would kill all the singers or all the heralds, depending on her mood.  Nor is family safe.  She is willing to spy on and kill her sister in law and almost kill her cousin.  She has the intellect, the disposition towards deceit, the poise and the murderous brutality necessary to be a traitor.  She also has an arrogance and certainty; a willingness to make grand moves, great sacrifices, if she believes them necessary.  She knows things she isn't sharing with Dalinar.  

               Has Jasnah made a concerted effort to stop Odium.  Not in WOK or WOR, her recommendations about the parshmen could have been a cover.  I think she knew they wouldn't be taken seriously.  In Oathbreaker, she choose to spare Renarin.  Pattern said "a traitor is".  Perhaps she meant that Sja-anat was a traitor to Odium.  We know Odium has been concerned about Sja-anat and her 'children'.  We know Renarin helped bring down Rayse.  Perhaps that was Sja-anat's plan and Jasnah went to stop it but decided not to.  In Rhythm of War she spends most of it away from the fight, interrogating the Heralds, getting close to Wit, consolidating her power.   Before the books we know she investigated her father's assassination.  She could have discovered things about his plans, how he got access to voidlight. Why hasn't she shared that information with Dalinar? What does she want from the Heralds?  What is she keeping from Hoid?  All I mean to say is it's possible that she is a traitor.  She would need some grand reason, the fate of the cosmere, a better Roshar, the promise she could found a dynasty.  I could see her stepping into her father's shoes. 

[Frustration]

I.. I don't know what to say, Words cannot express how cool that would be, I feel it's lacking in evidence but man, for a back five twist that would be amazing. I love it, take all of my upvotes.

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

A lot of people don't like Jasnah because she just seems to perfect.

And I think that’s intentional by Brandon. Up until now she is dealing pretty well with all that happens in the books compared to all the other main characters. I expect her book or the SA in general to push her to her limits more than anyone else. Something is going to break through the phasade of perfect composure and capability. I can totally see her kind of going down a similar dark path as Taravangian. Or at least being tempted to. Since he is Odium now he might know how to pull the strings on someone who thinks in similar ruthless ways as he does. She’s going to have a major breakdown.  The groundwork and foreshadowing is there.
The paranoia you mentioned.
Her feelings of betrayal/trust issues relating to her childhood illness.
Her issues with her father whom (according to Navanis flashback) she loved and respected deeply but who didn’t seem to see her in quite the same way. ( That might support your Hypothesis, since she might want to prove herself to him.)

But I can't really get with the idea that she was a traitor all along.
While it would definitely be a good twist it doesn’t really fit the story in my opinion.
Maybe I’m biased because she is one of my favorite characters. What I like about her is that she is a good person while not necessarily being likable. She genuinely tries to be a good person just like the others. It’s just that her flaws are different ones.

If she’d been a traitor all along It would take away a lot of the meaning of what we’ve seen so far.

And the storyarc of  “I betrayed my people and now I’ll have to  make up for it” is already filled by Venli.

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

               In my experience, paranoid people have secrets.  We know Jasnah is ruthless.  Jasnah would kill all the singers or all the heralds, depending on her mood.  Nor is family safe.  She is willing to spy on and kill her sister in law and almost kill her cousin.  She has the intellect, the disposition towards deceit, the poise and the murderous brutality necessary to be a traitor.  She also has an arrogance and certainty; a willingness to make grand moves, great sacrifices, if she believes them necessary.  She knows things she isn't sharing with Dalinar.  

Traitor for whom against whom? As far as I can tell there is nobody left she could betray anybody she owes loyalty to to.

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

               Has Jasnah made a concerted effort to stop Odium.

OK, I think your premise is wrong. She is Alethi and Rosharan. Her supreme loyalty must be to either of them. If she decided that defeating Odium could only be had at the price of sacrificing Roshar and that is not worth it, that is not treason but nationalism.

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Not in WOK or WOR, her recommendations about the parshmen could have been a cover.  I think she knew they wouldn't be taken seriously.

She was taken seriously. Why else would have Dalinar promised to negotiate? Because he knew what it would take to win. Not only was she taken seriously, but Dalinar agreed with her that genocide was a realistic option.

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

She could have discovered things about his plans, how he got access to voidlight. Why hasn't she shared that information with Dalinar? What does she want from the Heralds?  What is she keeping from Hoid?  All I mean to say is it's possible that she is a traitor.  She would need some grand reason, the fate of the cosmere, a better Roshar, the promise she could found a dynasty.  I could see her stepping into her father's shoes. 

She is the Queen of Alethkar. If she thinks that Alethkar's existance requires that she break an alliance, she is not a traitor, but a monarch doing her duty. It is only treason if she decieves the other members. She does not do so. Nor does she owe Hoid complete honesty. He is not completely honest to her either. Nor do their interests perfectly align. They are allies not sworn blood brothers.

[AquaRegia]

Some very interesting speculations here.  I agree that we get a "too perfect" vibe for Jasnah so far, largely because her character has been illuminated predominantly from others' points of view.  I also agree that seems intentional on Brandon's part, and could very well foreshadow some big challenges for her in upcoming novels.

I will mildly disagree with this:

11 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Jasnah would kill all the singers or all the heralds, depending on her mood.  Nor is family safe.  She is willing to spy on and kill her sister in law and almost kill her cousin.

Jasnah is supremely - even pathologically - rational.  I don't think she would ever do anything more important (or permanent) than trim her nails based on a "mood".  In every case mentioned, she has thoughtfully considered a course of action and made a decision whether to carry it out based on what she feels will result in the most good for her people.  As with any of us, her knowledge is imperfect, but she decides as best she can using reason, not emotion.

I definitely don't share the feeling that she has been, or will be, a traitor.

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

               In my experience, paranoid people have secrets.  We know Jasnah is ruthless.  Jasnah would kill all the singers or all the heralds, depending on her mood.  Nor is family safe.  She is willing to spy on and kill her sister in law and almost kill her cousin.  She has the intellect, the disposition towards deceit, the poise and the murderous brutality necessary to be a traitor.  She also has an arrogance and certainty; a willingness to make grand moves, great sacrifices, if she believes them necessary.  She knows things she isn't sharing with Dalinar.  

               Has Jasnah made a concerted effort to stop Odium.  Not in WOK or WOR, her recommendations about the parshmen could have been a cover.  I think she knew they wouldn't be taken seriously.  In Oathbreaker, she choose to spare Renarin.  Pattern said "a traitor is".  Perhaps she meant that Sja-anat was a traitor to Odium.  We know Odium has been concerned about Sja-anat and her 'children'.  We know Renarin helped bring down Rayse.  Perhaps that was Sja-anat's plan and Jasnah went to stop it but decided not to.  In Rhythm of War she spends most of it away from the fight, interrogating the Heralds, getting close to Wit, consolidating her power.   Before the books we know she investigated her father's assassination.  She could have discovered things about his plans, how he got access to voidlight. Why hasn't she shared that information with Dalinar? What does she want from the Heralds?  What is she keeping from Hoid?  All I mean to say is it's possible that she is a traitor.  She would need some grand reason, the fate of the cosmere, a better Roshar, the promise she could found a dynasty.  I could see her stepping into her father's shoes. 

So you are perfectly entitled to view Jasnah in that light if that is your prerogative. My only statement on this matter is I believe we have proof from the book that is not the case. We have Jasnah's PoVs that dispute all of this. Now we do know Shallan is an unreliable narrator, so it could be said Jasnah is self-delusional, but I have seen nothing in the novels to indicate that was the case. So if we can rely on what Jasnah thinks to herself truly being what she is thinking, then for me at least, this whole theory holds no water. But I wish you luck with your theory all the same. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Jasnah is supremely - even pathologically - rational.  I don't think she would ever do anything more important (or permanent) than trim her nails based on a "mood".  In every case mentioned, she has thoughtfully considered a course of action and made a decision whether to carry it out based on what she feels will result in the most good for her people.  As with any of us, her knowledge is imperfect, but she decides as best she can using reason, not emotion.

I definitely don't share the feeling that she has been, or will be, a traitor.

I am afraid there is a contradiction. Treason can be the rational choice.

If you look at it from an abstract view point, treason is the cessation of cooperation with allies in such a manner that you get the best deal out of an enemy. Jasnah is perfectly willing and able to understand that.

Nor is she going to assume that people who do not share her goals can be trusted beyond a certain point. And neither would she refrain from preemptive action against people on herside, if goals were to diverge.
The next obvious target would be Hoid. They are on the same side for now, but they do not share goals. Hoid is fighting Odium. Jasnah is defending Roshar. That is not the same thing.

[Olmund]

As far as Jasnah secretly intending to betray her family/people (as of Book 4), I think that's incredibly unlikely. If she hadn't been inducted into the Knights Radiant and become obsessed with voidbringers, I could see her perhaps planning that as a means to an end (tear down Alethi civilization so as to free Roshar from its influence -- even if it meant destroying her family). I could see her making similar decisions at some point in the future (given very specific conditions and/or character arcs), but given that she has been crowned Queen at this point she would most likely see such a betrayal as completely at odds with her (and her peoples') best interests.

The Hoid/Jasnah relationship could certainly go out with a bang (though a fizzle is just as likely at this point), and I could see either of them betraying each others' best interests with or without terminating the relationship when such a betrayal is discovered -- neither is loyal to the other above all else, and both seem to understand that about each other.

[CryoZenith]

18 hours ago, Olmund said:

As far as Jasnah secretly intending to betray her family/people (as of Book 4), I think that's incredibly unlikely. If she hadn't been inducted into the Knights Radiant and become obsessed with voidbringers, I could see her perhaps planning that as a means to an end (tear down Alethi civilization so as to free Roshar from its influence -- even if it meant destroying her family). I could see her making similar decisions at some point in the future (given very specific conditions and/or character arcs), but given that she has been crowned Queen at this point she would most likely see such a betrayal as completely at odds with her (and her peoples') best interests.

We already know that Jasnah dislikes Alethi civilization. Since she became queen, she has systematically been breaking down elements of Alethi culture and society: she banned trial by combat, she banned slavery, she's trying to make the leadership more democratic and bureaucratic, she has ideas about overhauling the caste system... She cares about the happiness and safety of her people, sure. But she doesn't seem to give a damn about their culture, or, to a certain extent, even their preferences.

I think that when we're talking about treason it is important to bear in mind the difference between being an antagonist and being a villain. Antagonists have incompatible goals with the heroes, but that doesn't mean those goals have to be *bad*. Jasnah could, through the simple act of rationally thinking on her own (or learning about alternative political systems from Hoid) arrive at conclusions and goals that don't mesh with our other protagonists. And those conclusions don't even need to be well-intentioned-extremist-takes, they could even be MORE reasonable than what Dalinar or Kaladin or Adolin want. But it would still make her an antagonist.

TL;DR: I think when discussing the plausibility of Jasnah betraying, one must consider what Jasnah is loyal to. She isn't loyal to nothing, she actively does care about things outside of herself. But she's also not loyal to her family or country, per se. She's loyal to the maximization of utility, more or less.

[+Oltux72]

28 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I think that when we're talking about treason it is important to bear in mind the difference between being an antagonist and being a villain. Antagonists have incompatible goals with the heroes, but that doesn't mean those goals have to be *bad*. Jasnah could, through the simple act of rationally thinking on her own (or learning about alternative political systems from Hoid) arrive at conclusions and goals that don't mesh with our other protagonists. And those conclusions don't even need to be well-intentioned-extremist-takes, they could even be MORE reasonable than what Dalinar or Kaladin or Adolin want. But it would still make her an antagonist.

That has already happened. Abolishing slavery is a bad move economically speaking.

28 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

TL;DR: I think when discussing the plausibility of Jasnah betraying, one must consider what Jasnah is loyal to. She isn't loyal to nothing, she actively does care about things outside of herself. But she's also not loyal to her family or country, per se. She's loyal to the maximization of utility, more or less.

There is no such thing as pure utility. Utility implies a goal.

[CryoZenith]

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That has already happened. Abolishing slavery is a bad move economically speaking.

Yep, pretty much.

Quote

There is no such thing as pure utility. Utility implies a goal.

I was abbreviating. Jasnah has a goal, I was just stressing that her goal is not some Randian notion of maximizing pure self benefit, nor some Richard Hare notion of maximizing the goal-fulfillment of others (such as the Alethi or the other protagonists). Her goal is to make the world, as much as possible, better for as many people as possible, according to her own meaning of better. I wanted to enunciate and stress the distinction between Jasnah's ultimate loyalty lying with Jasnah's worldview, rather than Jasnah's ultimate loyalty lying with Jasnah. She is willing to sacrifice (both others but also herself) in order to achieve what Jasnah thinks is a good idea.

Edited January 27, 2022 by CryoZenith

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

We already know that Jasnah dislikes Alethi civilization. Since she became queen, she has systematically been breaking down elements of Alethi culture and society: she banned trial by combat, she banned slavery, she's trying to make the leadership more democratic and bureaucratic, she has ideas about overhauling the caste system... She cares about the happiness and safety of her people, sure. But she doesn't seem to give a damn about their culture, or, to a certain extent, even their preferences.

I think that when we're talking about treason it is important to bear in mind the difference between being an antagonist and being a villain. Antagonists have incompatible goals with the heroes, but that doesn't mean those goals have to be *bad*. Jasnah could, through the simple act of rationally thinking on her own (or learning about alternative political systems from Hoid) arrive at conclusions and goals that don't mesh with our other protagonists. And those conclusions don't even need to be well-intentioned-extremist-takes, they could even be MORE reasonable than what Dalinar or Kaladin or Adolin want. But it would still make her an antagonist.

TL;DR: I think when discussing the plausibility of Jasnah betraying, one must consider what Jasnah is loyal to. She isn't loyal to nothing, she actively does care about things outside of herself. But she's also not loyal to her family or country, per se. She's loyal to the maximization of utility, more or less.

A large part of Jasnah's loyalty lies with her family. We have numerous PoVs as well as WoB that confirm that. Now that is not to say she would not do something that her family disagrees with if she feels it is better for them in the long run (when things went all to braize at Theylenah, she was thinking to herself how to evacuate Dalinar and co for their safety while realizing Dalinar would be resistant to the idea)

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That has already happened. Abolishing slavery is a bad move economically speaking.

Honestly I wonder if it is actually the best move given the factors. Low tier darkeyes and light eyes were facing a lot of fear and uncertainty after the parsh awakened and left. Jobs that the parsh used to do, suddenly needed people to do them. It is mentioned in the books how lower class were leery because they worried it would result in their class getting even lower, or being made into slaves to fill the gap. But if you abolish slavery, that confronts and removes that fear. Short term it would be difficult, but it has been proven across time if you actually pay your workers a livable wage, they will feel valued, work harder, and reinvest their wages back into the economy. Essentially a "trickle up", instead of "trickle down" economy.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Pathfinder

[CryoZenith]

34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A large part of Jasnah's loyalty lies with her family. We have numerous PoVs as well as WoB that confirm that. Now that is not to say she would not do something that her family disagrees with if she feels it is better for them in the long run (when things went all to braize at Theylenah, she was thinking to herself how to evacuate Dalinar and co for their safety while realizing Dalinar would be resistant to the idea)

I would be 100% with you on this if we never had the scene with Jasnah and Renarin (sure, she did spare his life in the end, but it was really close). I think she'd be willing to do things that are bad for her family (yes, even long term bad for her family) as long as it leads to substantially better long term consequences for humanity as a whole; it's just that she has a very high evidential bar for when that is a justified action.

[Pathfinder]

33 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

I would be 100% with you on this if we never had the scene with Jasnah and Renarin (sure, she did spare his life in the end, but it was really close). I think she'd be willing to do things that are bad for her family (yes, even long term bad for her family) as long as it leads to substantially better long term consequences for humanity as a whole; it's just that she has a very high evidential bar for when that is a justified action.

So I could go and reference a bunch of PoVs (which would take a bunch of time), and then we go back and forth over our personal interpretations of those scenes, but instead I will post some of the WoB I am referring to. You are certainly entitled to interpret them in other ways, but I think they show pretty conclusively that family is a tip top priority to Jasnah.

(edit: Also to add the reason why Renarin was such an issue, was because of a threat to the family within the family. That is referenced multiple times across the novel.)

 

 

(outright states family is one of her most important mandates)

Questioner

My question is about Jasnah, and why she tried to assassinate Elhokar’s wife?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, you’re going to need to get to know Elhokar’s wife a little better before you get an answer for that. But understand that Jasnah is very deliberate in her choices, and protecting her family is one of her most important personal mandates.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

 

(Willing to stay back and give Elhokar space because she understands the pressures he is dealing with and does not want to add to them, but if her quest to prevent a desolation meant she had to be at the capital, she would have stuck around, but tried not to be invasive)

Mrs. Jofwu

If you had to characterize in a few sentences, as adults, what the relationship was like between Jasnah and Elhokar...

Brandon Sanderson

...As adults. Their relationship is that of a fond-but-unyielding sister and an earnest-but-insecure brother.

Mrs. Jofwu

So they were affectionate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I would say they were affectionate. Not as much as, maybe, some other siblings. Like, you can look at Renarin and Adolin and see genuine affection. With Jasnah and Elhokar, it is almost-- there's definitely some affection, but there's almost more of an allegiance. Like, they're both dealing with certain pressures upon them, and their lives were very much consumed by these pressures, and they had that in common. But, I mean,  Jasnah's not a hugger anyway, if that makes sense?

Mrs. Jofwu

There was no jealousy between them?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, there was definitely jealousy on Elhokar's part. Definitely, the insecurity there. But Jasnah, was-- I mean, she was a little bit aware of it, but you know how she is, right?

Mrs. Jofwu

I didn't know if that contributed to why she removed herself from the Shattered Plains.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a little bit. I mean, her quest was more important to her than any of that. But, you know. Let my brother not live in as many shadows. Because he had a lot of shadows that he had to live in. And she was one of them, certainly. That would've been a consideration to Jasnah. But if had been right to stay, for her quest, she would have.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

(Jasnah was concerned that Aesudan was trying to take out Elhokar)

Questioner

Can you tell me why Jasnah wanted to potentially assassinate her sister-in-law, the queen?

Brandon Sanderson

She felt that the queen was seeking to usurp power, for one thing, and was reckless for another. And so Jasnah was worried about the safety of the throne.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Edited January 27, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

depending on her mood

This is actually the one thing I can say that is absolutely false.  Jasnah would not consider taking such actions based on her mood.  She always strives to make rational choices when confronted with a potentially problematic or dangerous choice.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

She is willing to spy on and kill her sister in law and almost kill her cousin

She didn't consider her sister in law family and thought her cousin was dangerous.  In either case their actions could have been disastrous for the cause she serves.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

the disposition towards deceit, the poise and the murderous brutality necessary to be a traitor

Jasnah does not generally lie although she does not tell everything she knows.  Betrayal in of itself can be an act of loyalty.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

In Oathbreaker, she choose to spare Renarin.  Pattern said "a traitor is".  Perhaps she meant that Sja-anat was a traitor to Odium

Pretty sure that was Ivory(Jasnah's spren).

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

Why hasn't she shared that information with Dalinar?

What information?  She told Dalinar everything she knew about her father's murder and even read WoKs to him.  If you mean in general then she likely doesn't confide Dalinar about everything because as an honorable person information she has might prompt him to take actions that would not be beneficial to her goals.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

What does she want from the Heralds? 

Information.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

What is she keeping from Hoid? 

As much as she can.  Hoid's goals are different from hers so if she has intel she can use against him then keeping it in reserve is a good idea.

On 1/25/2022 at 10:34 PM, ConfusedCow said:

She would need some grand reason, the fate of the cosmere, a better Roshar, the promise she could found a dynasty.  I could see her stepping into her father's shoes. 

Jasnah rejects marriage and hates teaching so founding a dynasty is out.  She is working on the fate of the cosmere and a better roshar. We know she is not immune to arrogance but I hope she does not follow her father.

3 hours ago, CryoZenith said:

But she's also not loyal to her family or country, per se. She's loyal to the maximization of utility, more or less.

She is explicitly loyal to her family even if this means taking actions that some members might disapprove of.  I would also say she is in fact more loyal to her own country then any other monarch in alethi history as she is making active strives to improve it at the expense of her popularity.  Maximizing utility are means to those ends not ends in of themselves.  What she claims to be most loyal to is "the greatest good for the greatest number."  I suppose you could call this her guiding principle.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Karger

[ConfusedCow]

Ivory is Jasnah's spren, my mistake. Some people have suggested Jasnah is utilitarian and logical.  

I see Jasnah as emotional.  Consider how she treats Shallan.  Not interested goodbye, I was so worried about you, I'll never forgive you, marry my cousin, alright let's practice note taking, congratulations sister.   People can be both emotional and intelligent. Jasnah seems wildly out of control to me.

[Karger]

5 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I see Jasnah as emotional.  Consider how she treats Shallan.  Not interested goodbye, I was so worried about you, I'll never forgive you, marry my cousin, alright let's practice note taking, congratulations sister.   People can be both emotional and intelligent. Jasnah seems wildly out of control to me.

Jasnah does not lack emotions she is just less comfortable then others in letting others see her display them.  She freely admits to Ivory that she has let emotions rule her during her OB PoV.  I would like a bit of context though.  Shallan rubs Jasnah the wrong way.  They both have a great deal of respect for each other but at the same time they find it annoying just to be in the same room.  Shallan has basically no control over her impulses and considers objective truth something like a myth.  Jasnah conversely seeks objectivity above all else.  She initially didn't want to hire Shallan but decided she was too useful to let go.  During this period she felt responsible for hurting Shallan and driving her to temporary madness.  Considering her own fears of insanity and her experiences with it this would have cut deeply.  Her afterwards tantrum was caused by being wrong(Jasnah's other pet peeve) but once again Shallan is too useful to let go.  "Lets practice note taking" is Jasnah's version of treating Shallan like normal/a colleague but as usual it doesn't work very well.  Her interactions with her other friends and family members are much more consistent by comparison.

[DiePie]

Jasnah is about as Utilitarian as it gets among Radiants, and so we can probably say that anything she does is either to maximize the prosperity of the people under her rule, or to maintain the power of the Kholin Dynasty.

However I don't see her as working with Rayse towards those ends, he's rather unpredictable and the only thing all her sources agree upon is that he is evil. Besides that, she probably thinks him as being the worse option (between Rayse and... not Rayse I suppose) when working towards either of those goals.

Taravangian however... He is the ultimate ends-justify-the-means utilitarian. If there's anyone within the Radiants who would ally with him it would be Jasnah... if their goals align. And they seem to do so, Taravodium's goal is to help people ("save" them), and when a new dictator comes to power they're almost always a purge of those not loyal to them, which means that Alethkar might very much need someone to rule it.

[CryoZenith]

7 hours ago, DiePie said:

Jasnah is about as Utilitarian as it gets among Radiants, and so we can probably say that anything she does is either to maximize the prosperity of the people under her rule, or to maintain the power of the Kholin Dynasty.

I think @Karger's point about bringing up the scene where Jasnah admits to Ivory that she lost her cool/let her emotions rule her during the OB PoV (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, Karger) is that it's possible for her to stray from her ethical system if put under sufficient emotional duress. She doesn't see that as a good thing per se, ideally she wants to make decisions dispassionately, but that doesn't mean she's a perfect rationalist. It's not "I will follow my feelings because that's the correct thing to do even in hindsight" but rather "this can happen in the Humean sense".

It's like how, in the abstract, I do think that the correct choice to make in the trolley thought experiment is to pull the lever, but if I were actually placed in the situation, the lever one foot away from me, I genuinely don't know if I'd have the strength of character to move.

Edited January 28, 2022 by CryoZenith

[Pathfinder]

Since the degree of Jasnah's utilitarianism is coming up quite a bit and seems to be a deciding factor to various individuals, I think the last part of the below WoB is particular relevant. I have summed it up, and then posted it, highlighting the pertinent portion.

 

 

On a scale of super utilitarian to not so utilitarian (going from left to right)

 

Super Utiliarian                                                                                                                    Not So Utilitarian

+                                                                                                                                                                     -

<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

Taravangian           Mraize/Thaidakar             Jasnah

 

(Noticed that viewing the scale on mobile messes up the order so I have numbered them below)

 

1. Taravangian

2. Mraize/Thaidakar

3. Jasnah

 

 

Kimbobhi

Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility

This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could...

Adam Horne

Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...?

Brandon Sanderson

They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that.

Adam Horne

Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines.

There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Edited January 28, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

15 hours ago, DiePie said:

Taravangian however... He is the ultimate ends-justify-the-means utilitarian. If there's anyone within the Radiants who would ally with him it would be Jasnah... if their goals align. And they seem to do so, Taravodium's goal is to help people ("save" them), and when a new dictator comes to power they're almost always a purge of those not loyal to them, which means that Alethkar might very much need someone to rule it.

I agree that under specific circumstances Jasnah would agree to serve TOdium.  However Dalinar recently made a similar agreement.  Jasnah would not serve him out of a personal desire for power, accomplishment or safety(which is how betrayal is usually defined) but rather because she could not find any better options.  Lirin willingly served the fused for a while for the same reason and with a similar rational.

[+Oltux72]

On 27.1.2022 at 5:04 PM, Pathfinder said:

A large part of Jasnah's loyalty lies with her family. We have numerous PoVs as well as WoB that confirm that. Now that is not to say she would not do something that her family disagrees with if she feels it is better for them in the long run (when things went all to braize at Theylenah, she was thinking to herself how to evacuate Dalinar and co for their safety while realizing Dalinar would be resistant to the idea)

What is her family? Obviously she is ready to sacrifice a member. So is it the concept of her family? Or is she just ready to work for the majority?

On 27.1.2022 at 5:04 PM, Pathfinder said:

Honestly I wonder if it is actually the best move given the factors. Low tier darkeyes and light eyes were facing a lot of fear and uncertainty after the parsh awakened and left.

Exactly therefore it is a bad idea. The work does not go away. And it will necessarily end up with the lowest class. If you are 10th rank without slavery, that's you. If slaves exist, that's not you.

And what will they do with their criminals? They are in the middle of a planetary war. You can draft them and send

them on suicide missions, but their loyalty will be dubious. Locking them up, guard them and feed them, however, is not a good option. You can of course hang them. But then they are lost to the war effort.
And you are depriving the economy of capital. Slaves could be turned into a collateral. No longer. And just releasing slaves if employment is low is also a bad option.

Jasnah may see freeing the slaves as a logical extension of abolishing lighteye priviledge. She is mistaken.

 

18 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

On a scale of super utilitarian to not so utilitarian (going from left to right)

 

Super Utiliarian                                                                                                                    Not So Utilitarian

+                                                                                                                                                                     -

<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>

Taravangian           Mraize/Thaidakar             Jasnah

You are referring to a man who

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

• did not send somebody after a man who knew too much to have him killed
• was ready to give a girl a fortune of many just to have only positively willing people on his crew
• was ready to fight an army all on his own in a hopeless battle

as utilitarian?

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What is her family? Obviously she is ready to sacrifice a member. So is it the concept of her family? Or is she just ready to work for the majority?

If you would like I will go back over the book and write up the quotes, but the reason is Jasnah was studying how threats to the family often come from within the family. For example a story of how a member fought over the crown, poisoning and killing to get it, resulting in everyone dead. The fact that she researched extensively both the past, and Renarin's actions, agonizing over the decision, and still despite every fact pointing to that answer still could not do it, to me shows how important her family is to her.

Quote

Exactly therefore it is a bad idea. The work does not go away. And it will necessarily end up with the lowest class. If you are 10th rank without slavery, that's you. If slaves exist, that's not you.

No, if slavery exists, at any point due to the resource vacuum, that can be you. Commit a minor crime, oh you are a slave. Owe debts? Slave. By removing slavery, you are assuaging that fear, and we do have proof that confident workers are beneficial workers to the overall society.  

Quote

And what will they do with their criminals? They are in the middle of a planetary war. You can draft them and send them on suicide missions, but their loyalty will be dubious. Locking them up, guard them and feed them, however, is not a good option. You can of course hang them. But then they are lost to the war effort.

Do to criminals what you normally do to criminals. You now have a living building, that never sleeps that can maintain rooms that can only be opened or closed by it. Now that we have two potential stormlight infusers in Dalinar and Navani, making food via soulcasting, and regrowth is much easier. So locking them up and feeding them is not as difficult as you make it out to be. Making them slaves or putting them on suicide missions would build resentment, fear, and foment rebellion. 

Quote

And you are depriving the economy of capital. Slaves could be turned into a collateral. No longer. And just releasing slaves if employment is low is also a bad option.

Jasnah may see freeing the slaves as a logical extension of abolishing lighteye priviledge. She is mistaken.

Again, we have proof that investing in your workforce pays increased dividends. Slavery is only lucrative in the short term, but far more damaging in the long term. 

Quote

You are referring to a man who

Well first and foremost, as a point of clarity, it is Brandon that is saying that Thaidakar is a more extreme utilitarian than Jasnah. That he and Mraize are closer to Taravangian based on their actions. 

Quote

(Scadrial)

  Reveal hidden contents

• did not send somebody after a man who knew too much to have him killed
• was ready to give a girl a fortune of many just to have only positively willing people on his crew
• was ready to fight an army all on his own in a hopeless battle

as utilitarian?

Now I have had this conversation before, so I would like to make clear I like Thaidakar. I think he is a great character. But a good chunk of the actions he has taken, makes following him dubious to me. If I fully knew the type of person he was, I would be concerned for my own safety. Further, Brandon answered to his name as Thaidakar which could indicate after he became head of the Ghostbloods. For all you know, Thaidakar has gotten even worse. But yes I am saying a man that would:

Spoiler

 

1. Set up an entire village to die at the hands of the inquisitors, after he killed their noble, and give them absolutely no support nor take any responsibility for them. He literally forgot they existed and was genuinely surprised they survived at all. 

2. Took an individual who had genuine fears and concerns about the rebellion, and manipulated him to act out and tried to force another individual to kill him, all to prove a point to the group at large. 

3. Truly viewed that all noblemen/women must die, fully intended to carry that out, and actively took action to accomplish that.

4. Formed an entire religion on a lie, to manipulate a group to further his own ends. Then did it again with another group. 

 

sounds pretty utilitarian and close to Taravangian to me. (and that is just recollection off the cuff. I know there are plenty more if given the opportunity to dig a bit)

Edited January 29, 2022 by Pathfinder

[DiePie]

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

No, if slavery exists, at any point due to the resource vacuum, that can be you. Commit a minor crime, oh you are a slave. Owe debts? Slave. By removing slavery, you are assuaging that fear, and we do have proof that confident workers are beneficial workers to the overall society.  

something that's always irked is is, would Jasnah have actual proof that slaves work less efficiently than free workers? Like did someone do a scientific study into the productivity of free vs. enslaved workers? She seems to just not want slaves.

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

sounds pretty utilitarian and close to Taravangian to me. (and that is just recollection off the cuff. I know there are plenty more if given the opportunity to dig a bit)

I wouldn't call Thaidakar utilitarian because he isn't trying to do good, while Taravangian and Jasnah are trying to help people, Thaidakar is doing things either for the power/prestige, or to get revenge against the killers of his wife.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, DiePie said:

something that's always irked is is, would Jasnah have actual proof that slaves work less efficiently than free workers? Like did someone do a scientific study into the productivity of free vs. enslaved workers? She seems to just not want slaves.

She is a historian by trade and passion. She has shown she has studied societies across the breath of Roshar, both present and past. Not all cultures on Roshar use slaves, and further have different economic structures than the Alethi currently do. So I could easily imagine her taking lessons from other cultures and the past to arrive to her conclusions.

1 minute ago, DiePie said:

I wouldn't call Thaidakar utilitarian because he isn't trying to do good, while Taravangian and Jasnah are trying to help people, Thaidakar is doing things either for the power/prestige, or to get revenge against the killers of his wife.

So I think Thaidakar is labeled utilitarian by Brandon because, at least it seems to me, in that WoB, Brandon is viewing utilitarianism in two types of lenses. To Brandon, one form of utilitarianism is doing whatever it takes to accomplish a goal. The goal is what validates the actions. So Thaidakar's goal was to stop what he perceived was the greater evil. The reason he viewed it to be the greater evil, and his motivations can certainly be seen in varying lights, but at the end of the day, Thaidakar justified any action in pursuit of that goal. 

Conversely, Brandon did make a point to differentiate Jasnah's views from Thaidakar, Mraize, and Taravangian. That she is trying to do the most good with her every action that she can. 

So I believe that is the criteria Brandon was using to define those three characters. Now there is a whole lot more nuance to utilitarianism, and its various forms, but for the purpose of that WoB, it looks like Brandon defined it as goal orientated versus act orientated.