Is Jasnah a traitor?

[CryoZenith]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

She is a historian by trade and passion. She has shown she has studied societies across the breath of Roshar, both present and past. Not all cultures on Roshar use slaves, and further have different economic structures than the Alethi currently do. So I could easily imagine her taking lessons from other cultures and the past to arrive to her conclusions.

She pretty much says it verbatim. Excerpt from RoW chapter 17:

Spoiler

Dalinar continued to pace. “I cannot see reason in this, Jasnah. The chaos this will cause…”

“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”

 

[DiePie]

1 hour ago, CryoZenith said:

She pretty much says it verbatim. Excerpt from RoW chapter 17:

  Hide contents

Dalinar continued to pace. “I cannot see reason in this, Jasnah. The chaos this will cause…”

“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”

 

this is referring to when to make sweeping changes, not the changes themselves

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, DiePie said:

something that's always irked is is, would Jasnah have actual proof that slaves work less efficiently than free workers? Like did someone do a scientific study into the productivity of free vs. enslaved workers? She seems to just not want slaves.

Probably yes, but that is a false contradiction. Nobody is proposing enslaving all low ranked people. The data used to show that a group consisting only of slaves would be worse than a group without slaves cannot be used to exclude that a mixed group would work even better.

18 hours ago, DiePie said:

I wouldn't call Thaidakar utilitarian because he isn't trying to do good, while Taravangian and Jasnah are trying to help people, Thaidakar is doing things either for the power/prestige, or to get revenge against the killers of his wife.

Thaidakar may be more ruthless than Jasnah, but he is also more romantic. And his ruthlessness is focused on killing enemies or collateral damage. He would not have suggested asking the Heralds to let themselves be killed, but he would have proposed exterminating the Parshendi.

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Probably yes, but that is a false contradiction. Nobody is proposing enslaving all low ranked people. The data used to show that a group consisting only of slaves would be worse than a group without slaves cannot be used to exclude that a mixed group would work even better.

Not sure how Alethkar is not a mixed slave, worker. Other nations don't have slaved at all. It would be a simple matter to compare cultures across the ages and see the difference. 

Quote

Thaidakar may be more ruthless than Jasnah, but he is also more romantic. And his ruthlessness is focused on killing enemies or collateral damage. He would not have suggested asking the Heralds to let themselves be killed, but he would have proposed exterminating the Parshendi.

Actually Thaidakar would say they should kill the heralds knowing the heralds would come back to life afterwards. Then after Kaladin is shocked and abhored, Thaidakar would wait till Kaladin is distracted, and then use Kaladin's spear while he is still holding it, to stab a Herald, killing him. You know, like he did to

Spoiler

Preservation, Elend and Vin

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Pathfinder

[Infinity Sliver]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:41 AM, CryoZenith said:

She pretty much says it verbatim. Excerpt from RoW chapter 17:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dalinar continued to pace. “I cannot see reason in this, Jasnah. The chaos this will cause…”

“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”

 

Damn,i am impressed that you remembered this and knew where to look for it

[CryoZenith]

1 hour ago, Infinity Sliver said:

Damn,i am impressed that you remembered this and knew where to look for it

The funny thing is that I actually misremembered it. In my memory, in this discussion between Dalinar and Jasnah she mentions how Azir doesn't have slaves and are doing just fine. (well it's true that Azir doesn't have slaves, but that never happened, I found out on reread hahaha)

[HSuperLee]

Well, I guess I'm getting sucked into another Jasnah thread. Time to say some stuff I'll probably regret later.

I am utterly fascinated that so many people seem to be talking about how logical Jasnah is and how so many of her decisions are based on utilitarianism. I've never really seen her as that logical. Instead, she comes across to me as an extremely emotional person who has learned to hide those emotions and then justifies her actions by calling them logical even when they're not. The only reason she can get away with it is that she's eloquent, verbose, and aggressive in her speech, meaning that when she says she's being logical, most people believe her. This is a personality I've met many times (and often embody myself). Maybe that's my own personal experience tainting my ability to see the way she's actually being written, but I've never actually believed her or Ivory when they talk about how driven by logic she is. And if someone is about to respond with, "But the fact her spren says that she's being very logical and spren-like means that must actually be the case!" I will point you to the honor spren in lasting integrity and how they chose to interpret the idea of being embodiments of honor, and then I will ask you if you really believe the spren to be such perfect judges of the virtues they claim to know so well. Am I saying Ivory is in the same boat as Jasnah, where he's hiding emotional decisions behind a logical vernacular? Yes. Yes I am. His very name would seem to give that away.

All that to say, I would not be surprised if Jasnah could be swayed into becoming a traitor, especially by Odium. In my mind, she seems very compatible with that shard, and I wouldn't be surprised if she has a lot of agreement with TOdium's perspective on things.

Now, where this gets weird is in her relations to her family. As has been highlighted already in this thread, Jasnah cares a lot about her family, and I honestly think she cares a lot more about how they see her than she lets on. I think it would hurt her immensely to be seen as a traitor by her family. But an interesting set of circumstances that I could see occurring would be Dalinar losing the contest with TOdium and becoming a fused, and then Jasnah dedicating herself to following and supporting Dalinar. Basically, I could see her making a deal where she would agree to work with TOdium under the condition that she gets to be with Dalinar to support him as he is forced to do things that he doesn't want to do, and act as an advisor and emotional support for him. I could also see her doing this to hide the fact that she actually agrees with TOdium's goals and wants to support him without being seen as a traitor by her family.

I'm not saying that's what I think will happen, but I could see how it could happen. Honestly, it might make me actually enjoy Jasnah's character in the back half, as it would be a fascinating perspective.

 

Anyway, those are my two cents, for all the two cents they're worth.

[Kandrafish]

14 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Well, I guess I'm getting sucked into another Jasnah thread. Time to say some stuff I'll probably regret later.

I am utterly fascinated that so many people seem to be talking about how logical Jasnah is and how so many of her decisions are based on utilitarianism. I've never really seen her as that logical. Instead, she comes across to me as an extremely emotional person who has learned to hide those emotions and then justifies her actions by calling them logical even when they're not. The only reason she can get away with it is that she's eloquent, verbose, and aggressive in her speech, meaning that when she says she's being logical, most people believe her. This is a personality I've met many times (and often embody myself). Maybe that's my own personal experience tainting my ability to see the way she's actually being written, but I've never actually believed her or Ivory when they talk about how driven by logic she is. And if someone is about to respond with, "But the fact her spren says that she's being very logical and spren-like means that must actually be the case!" I will point you to the honor spren in lasting integrity and how they chose to interpret the idea of being embodiments of honor, and then I will ask you if you really believe the spren to be such perfect judges of the virtues they claim to know so well. Am I saying Ivory is in the same boat as Jasnah, where he's hiding emotional decisions behind a logical vernacular? Yes. Yes I am. His very name would seem to give that away.

All that to say, I would not be surprised if Jasnah could be swayed into becoming a traitor, especially by Odium. In my mind, she seems very compatible with that shard, and I wouldn't be surprised if she has a lot of agreement with TOdium's perspective on things.

Now, where this gets weird is in her relations to her family. As has been highlighted already in this thread, Jasnah cares a lot about her family, and I honestly think she cares a lot more about how they see her than she lets on. I think it would hurt her immensely to be seen as a traitor by her family. But an interesting set of circumstances that I could see occurring would be Dalinar losing the contest with TOdium and becoming a fused, and then Jasnah dedicating herself to following and supporting Dalinar. Basically, I could see her making a deal where she would agree to work with TOdium under the condition that she gets to be with Dalinar to support him as he is forced to do things that he doesn't want to do, and act as an advisor and emotional support for him. I could also see her doing this to hide the fact that she actually agrees with TOdium's goals and wants to support him without being seen as a traitor by her family.

I'm not saying that's what I think will happen, but I could see how it could happen. Honestly, it might make me actually enjoy Jasnah's character in the back half, as it would be a fascinating perspective.

 

Anyway, those are my two cents, for all the two cents they're worth.

I agree with almost all of this.

 

(I) Jasnah... "she comes across to me as an extremely emotional person who has learned to hide those emotions and then justifies her actions by calling them logical"

I agree and disagree. She has emotions that drive her to make decisions and takes logical actions with end goals that align with her emotions or overall plans.

Example 1: You, Jasnah, are furious about high princes not respecting you, but yelling isn't going to do any good, so to get revenge and rectify the issue, you set up a duel with Wit and a ring leader and humiliate your opponent. --You can use logic while acting on emotions and it further consolidates power, so it fits with your other plans.

Example 2: You, Jasnah, are terrified about your plans being ruined by assassins again. So what logical response is there? Have gems nearby at all times and leave a boat in Shadesmar in case you need to escape and make your tent designed to foil assassins. 

If you are Elhokar, your "logical" response is to try to assassinate yourself during a chasmfiend hunt.

--Paranoia and logic can work hand in hand. Or not.

 

(II) "I could see her making a deal where she would agree to work with TOdium under" some condition. And it would be some emotion based condition. I could see her asking to take Dalinar's place or some of his responsibilities.

You, Jasnah, could work with or for TOdium because it protects people that you love, but you are going to get as much out of TOdium as possible for this deal. It is just the logical thing to do.

 

My own point:

1 People with a good grasp of logic are aware that there are always multiple logical options.

2 No one is omniscient. 

3 Spending a too long on a decision is not logical. It is a waste of time.

Solution: Follow your emotions. You will be more productive that way also.

The funny thing is that you cannot use sound logic to justify anything. But you can use it to justify a lot. In the same way that Kaladin is bound by honor, Jasnah is bound by logic.

I don't think either takes away free will or the ability to follow emotions. It does, however limit their options in different ways.

 

Lastly, I think that everyone has emotions and feelings. Logical people listen to long term emotions and follow them when it is convenient. They ignore transient feelings. I think Jasnah does this, mostly and can do so while having strong beliefs.

 

Is she a traitor?

I think that Jasnah is not a traitor, but if she were a "traitor", I agree with others who said she would be betraying people for their own good. 

It would be a decision motivated by emotions (not controlled by them), but it would be logical in its execution. She would not think of it as betrayal and would have logical arguments to back this up.

 

 

[Pathfinder]

So regarding the original premise of this thread, that Jasnah always was a traitor from the beginning. I was re-reading a chapter regarding another thread and I saw a portion from her perspective that I feel is pertinent. It's page 761 of rhythm of war. It is regarding the sleepless. They spied on wit. He mentions odium and she labels Odium the enemy. No thoughts on being duplicitous in those statements. So unless she is lying to herself in that moment, jasnah is not a traitor.

 

Now at the end of the day anything is possible, so could that change? Sure. But we also have a WoB that taravangian had originally intended to recruit jasnah because he thought she was as extremely and dangerously (Brandon's words) utilitarian as he is. Because she is not, and other reasons, he decided against it. 

 

So since jasnah sees odium as an enemy, and taravangian doesn't think he could recruit her, says to me that she won't be joining Todium. But like I said, anything is certainly possible. So I wish everyone luck with their theories. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

On 30.1.2022 at 7:47 PM, Pathfinder said:

Not sure how Alethkar is not a mixed slave, worker. Other nations don't have slaved at all. It would be a simple matter to compare cultures across the ages and see the difference. 

No, for you would have no control group. You could always argue that other factors, for example the Vorin rule of keeping half your population illiterate, are the crucial difference.

On 30.1.2022 at 7:47 PM, Pathfinder said:

Actually Thaidakar would say they should kill the heralds knowing the heralds would come back to life afterwards. Then after Kaladin is shocked and abhored, Thaidakar would wait till Kaladin is distracted, and then use Kaladin's spear while he is still holding it, to stab a Herald, killing him. You know, like he did to

Thaidakar will do such things to an enemy or a neutral party. He will not do it to a friend. Good and bad are not important categories to him. Friend and foe are.

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, for you would have no control group. You could always argue that other factors, for example the Vorin rule of keeping half your population illiterate, are the crucial difference.

Could you elaborate regarding what you are getting at? I do not recall across human history there being a scientific test group regarding slavery and its success or failure. Cultures and societies were examined in light of their economic structures, and the pros and cons were weighed. It is shown to be ineffective and downright damaging. 

Quote

Thaidakar will do such things to an enemy or a neutral party. He will not do it to a friend. Good and bad are not important categories to him. Friend and foe are.

Um I am pretty sure 

Spoiler

Elend

was an ally, and Thaidakar stabbed him in front of

Spoiler

Vin

using 

Spoiler

Preservation

who was also very much an ally, against his will. 

Spoiler

Preservation

literally said no, and Thadakar did it anyway, much to

Spoiler

Preservation's

horror.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Pathfinder

[CryoZenith]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You could always argue that other factors, for example the Vorin rule of keeping half your population illiterate, are the crucial difference.

I feel like you're sneaking in an unfair implication here. I know that the whole "keep the population stupid so it's easier to rule" thing has happened in real life, but the parallel doesn't work for Alethkar at all:

1. Being literate, in Alethkar, does not in itself open up any avenues towards political power.

2. Most political leaders, in Alethkar, are illiterate themselves.

3. There's an entire group of technically slaves, the ardents, which are ALL literate.

[+Oltux72]

On 20.2.2022 at 2:53 AM, Pathfinder said:

Could you elaborate regarding what you are getting at?

Very reluctantly for the topic is associated with racism in the western hemisphere for historical reasons. But hiding does not help here.

On 20.2.2022 at 2:53 AM, Pathfinder said:

I do not recall across human history there being a scientific test group regarding slavery and its success or failure. Cultures and societies were examined in light of their economic structures, and the pros and cons were weighed. It is shown to be ineffective and downright damaging. 

Sure and you can clearly find examples of economies based on slaves failing. Prime examples would be the late Roman Empire and indeed the antebellum South of the USA. So we know that there is a potential for having too many slaves or unrestricted slavery leading to failure. But are we picking cherries? Egypt in the age of the pyramids, Sumer, Babylon, the city states of the Late Bronze Age, Mykene, the Hittite empire, classical era Greece, the Caliphate during the golden Era of Islam, all were slaveholders and arguably pinnacles of human civilization during their place and time.

Hence the data is not clear. For all we know the economically optimal number of slaves in an economy may be small but greater than zero or below a threshold it may just not matter. The notion that the optimum number of slaves is zero is not substantiated. We are taking a leap of faith for ethical reasons.

And so is Jasnah. She wants this. Her reasons are not pragmatic and in the short run her policies are harmful.

On 20.2.2022 at 2:53 AM, Pathfinder said:

Um I am pretty sure

I am afraid there are people who to Thaidakar for reasons of class cannot be true, lasting allies.

On 20.2.2022 at 6:24 AM, CryoZenith said:

I feel like you're sneaking in an unfair implication here. I know that the whole "keep the population stupid so it's easier to rule" thing has happened in real life, but the parallel doesn't work for Alethkar at all:

1. Being literate, in Alethkar, does not in itself open up any avenues towards political power.

We are talking about the economic impact here, not politics.

Illiterate people are fundamentally unproductive people. You cannot store information in such a way that they could access it. How would they keep a log book?

 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

We are talking about the economic impact here, not politics.

Illiterate people are fundamentally unproductive people. You cannot store information in such a way that they could access it. How would they keep a log book?

when the population that can read is spread equally between the entire population reguardess of economic situation that should be mostly a non-issue.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sure and you can clearly find examples of economies based on slaves failing. Prime examples would be the late Roman Empire and indeed the antebellum South of the USA. So we know that there is a potential for having too many slaves or unrestricted slavery leading to failure. But are we picking cherries? Egypt in the age of the pyramids, Sumer, Babylon, the city states of the Late Bronze Age, Mykene, the Hittite empire, classical era Greece, the Caliphate during the golden Era of Islam, all were slaveholders and arguably pinnacles of human civilization during their place and time.

But I feel like in your examples, you are picking cherries. As in you are taking a snap shot moment to determine whether it was effective in that society. So for instance depending on the time you choose, it could be said Roman's having slaves were successful. Or the south. Because at that time, that structure fit the need and made that society at that moment economically viable. 

When studying cultures and the effectiveness of certain practices, a wider array of traits and characteristics are taken into account over a long period of time. You could have a society that is "rich" and "prosperous" but the practice that got them there be a failure because it is not sustainable. Or it is self destructive. The circus in Rome could be seen as a wonderful and successful tool. The masses were given food, while they got to enjoy bloody games. People absolutely adored the rulers that gave them the games. But it doesn't change the practice was really only to distract the masses from the deeply problematic structures in place. All the circus really accomplished was dodge the issue till is violently imploded. 

So it could be said that slavery got various cultures to places of prosperity faster or more efficiently, but when you study the breath and width of a society, you can see all its levels. And the rot is very clear and easy to see.

Jasnah is a student and scholar of history and we know for a fact such various societies existed and exist in the novels. So coming to those conclusions makes sense and employing them would be beneficial.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid there are people who to Thaidakar for reasons of class cannot be true, lasting allies.

So you are saying Thaidakar does not consider

Spoiler

Vin 

To be an ally?

[Bort]

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

when the population that can read is spread equally between the entire population reguardess of economic situation that should be mostly a non-issue.

I don't think this is the case though. Doesn't it say somewhere in WoK, likely one of Kaladin's flashbacks, the his mother was one of the few villagers that could read? And we know there's something odd about her background, suggestions she's related to lighteyes. That would put her on a higher educational background than the other villagers.

My personal theory is that she's a bastard... Possibly Gavilar's as it's pretty clear he wasn't faithful.

Edit: Or at least, a Kholin of some description.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Bort