Frustration Posted January 25, 2022 Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) So there has been some ambient speculation on the names of a Odium+Cultivation hybrid So I have gathered some in an attempt to get a community concensus on it. If I missed yours post down bellow and I'll add it. Edited March 15, 2022 by Frustration 1
HSuperLee Posted January 25, 2022 Posted January 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said: Cancer? I suppose the logic there is hostile (malignant) growth. 2
cometaryorbit Posted January 25, 2022 Posted January 25, 2022 Cultivation is controlled or directed growth. Odium is hatred, but perhaps a bit broader. So I don't think any of the options quite fit. Combining them would imo give either aggressive growth/expansion that pushes out others, or aggressive 'pruning' to reshape a thing/person/society. But I don't really know a good single word for either. *Cancer is specifically uncontrolled growth, so I don't think that quite fits. Conquest perhaps, but that feels a bit too close to Dominion. And the idea would be less ruling others, more expanding to fill everything at everyone else's expense. OTOH I am not sure we really understand how combined Intents work anyway. Is War really the Intent of Honor+Odium? Sure, there's Warlight, but Honor+Cultivation light is Towerlight and "Tower" isn't an Intent.
Frustration Posted January 25, 2022 Author Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) On 1/25/2022 at 4:36 PM, cometaryorbit said: Cultivation is controlled or directed growth. Odium is hatred, but perhaps a bit broader. So I don't think any of the options quite fit. Combining them would imo give either aggressive growth/expansion that pushes out others, or aggressive 'pruning' to reshape a thing/person/society. But I don't really know a good single word for either. *Cancer is specifically uncontrolled growth, so I don't think that quite fits. Conquest perhaps, but that feels a bit too close to Dominion. And the idea would be less ruling others, more expanding to fill everything at everyone else's expense. OTOH I am not sure we really understand how combined Intents work anyway. Is War really the Intent of Honor+Odium? Sure, there's Warlight, but Honor+Cultivation light is Towerlight and "Tower" isn't an Intent. Towerlight is a bit of a misnomer, going by pure intent it should be sciencelight Edited February 12, 2022 by Frustration
CryoZenith he/him Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) I'll go with none of the above. Off the cuff, I would call Cultivation + Odium Instict. This is from me interpreting Odium as Passion moreso than Hatred, but yeah. It would be the Intent that embodies what you feel driven to do not because of some intellectual pursuit or rationale, but because of inborn biological drives. So that Intent would cover (arguably) negative things like fight-or-flight, but also (arguably) neutral things like reproductive drive, and also (arguably) positive things like kin-interdependence. Edited January 26, 2022 by CryoZenith 4
Use the Falchion Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) I would say Revolution fits the best. A revolution is about growing something out of the ashes of what came before, but it also needs passion to survive. (Ideally because one loves their view of something so much, that they have to fight for it any way they can, or they hate something so much that they must overthrow it and replace it with something better.) Revolutions start small but grow into big things if kindled. Revolution may feel like Autonomy, but I think that's only because of a certain Shard's actions - Revolution isn't about being free from all oppression, rather, being free from the current one. Thorns are interesting, but they're self-defense mechanisms. I think Revolution embodies the internal and external aspect of Cultivation + Odium. I can even see this applied in a weird way: Imagine a world where the head of states all have superpowers, and the superpowers they had, all of their subjects would be forced to use. All of the previous heads of states would have been violently overthrown by someone who can use that power better, or had a better power in general, not unlike the Sith Rule of Two from Star Wars. Eventually, peaceful transitions of power were put in place. But now someone whose power is to suck the life out of others is in charge, and someone with a power that's generally seen as weak must revolt in order to correct the system. Or something like that. I'm honestly just spit-balling here. Edited January 26, 2022 by Use the Falchion 2
Anomander Rake he/him Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Forgive my ignorance, but where does each espoused name come from? IIRC Freedom comes from the line where Venli thinks or speaks to something directly quoted as such, but as for the rest, I'm unsure. In book stuff? Popular forum ideas?
Frustration Posted January 26, 2022 Author Posted January 26, 2022 1 minute ago, Anomander Rake said: Forgive my ignorance, but where does each espoused name come from? IIRC Freedom comes from the line where Venli thinks or speaks to something directly quoted as such, but as for the rest, I'm unsure. In book stuff? Popular forum ideas? Forum ideas 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Evolution. Cultivation is growth, becoming stronger, even of thorns. Odium is emotion and conflict, as we know the power likes questions even when Rayse tried to get Sja-anat to just obey. Those two together are evolution. 1
+Child of Hodor Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 15 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Cultivation is controlled or directed growth. Odium is hatred, but perhaps a bit broader. So I don't think any of the options quite fit. Combining them would imo give either aggressive growth/expansion that pushes out others, or aggressive 'pruning' to reshape a thing/person/society. But I don't really know a good single word for either. *Cancer is specifically uncontrolled growth, so I don't think that quite fits. Conquest perhaps, but that feels a bit too close to Dominion. And the idea would be less ruling others, more expanding to fill everything at everyone else's expense. OTOH I am not sure we really understand how combined Intents work anyway. Is War really the Intent of Honor+Odium? Sure, there's Warlight, but Honor+Cultivation light is Towerlight and "Tower" isn't an Intent. Yeah, the Light names don't correspond to the Shard names very well. Stormlight isn't from the Shard named Storm, Cloud or Weather. 8 hours ago, Ixthos said: Evolution. Cultivation is growth, becoming stronger, even of thorns. Odium is emotion and conflict, as we know the power likes questions even when Rayse tried to get Sja-anat to just obey. Those two together are evolution. That's what I voted for. Survival of the fittest feels like the ethos for a C+O combo. 1
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: That's what I voted for. Survival of the fittest feels like the ethos for a C+O combo. Indeed. It also contrasts nicely with the idea of Cultivation and Honour as Science, as Science in general implies a peaceful or emotionless logic and upwards growth, while Evolution is messy and full of emotion. 1
KaladinWorldsinger Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 I do think that it's freedom from ROW, but it could literally be anything as I still can't understand H+C = Science. Like ya I get it Honor concerns natural laws and cultivation concerns with progress, but science seems like a tiny slice of their combination. I am still shaky on H+O = War, so...
HavingTheHasHoidAPurpose? Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Drive! its probably to mundane sounding to become the real name, but it fits with both growth and passion. 2
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: I do think that it's freedom from ROW, but it could literally be anything as I still can't understand H+C = Science. Like ya I get it Honor concerns natural laws and cultivation concerns with progress, but science seems like a tiny slice of their combination. I am still shaky on H+O = War, so... Honour is fundamentally about order and following a code or procedure - Honour is oaths and organisation and protocol. Odium is emotion and opposition, negative feelings and battle. Cultivation is positive change, growth, things becoming more than they were, and the natural world. Honour and Odium - code and procedure and organisation mixed with conflict and battle - War, two organised forces battling each other Honour and Cultivation - organised upwards growth and the protocol of the natural world - Science, the systems in nature and the discovery and exploration of those systems Cultivation and Odium - upwards growth and nature and the struggle and violence in the environment - Evolution, life battling with life and nature to become better suited for that environment Edited January 26, 2022 by Ixthos two - accidentally misspelled
Frustration Posted January 26, 2022 Author Posted January 26, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ixthos said: Cultivation and Odium - upwards growth and nature and the struggle and violence in the environment - Evolution, life battling with life and nature to become better suited for that environment Wouldn't evolution be included in Cultivation's base intent?
NameIess Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 19 minutes ago, Frustration said: Wouldn't evolution be included in Cultivation's base intent? Survival of the fittest is an important part of evolution, and Cultivation tries to cultivate everything, not just weak things.
Frustration Posted January 26, 2022 Author Posted January 26, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nameless said: Survival of the fittest is an important part of evolution, and Cultivation tries to cultivate everything, not just weak things. Cultivation is not opposed to removing weakness, she specifically refered to what she was doing to Dalinar as a "Pruning"
NameIess Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Cultivation is not opposed to removing weakness, she specifically refered to what she was doing to Dalinar as a "Pruning" But she didn't kill Dalinar, even if doing so would have let the rest of Roshar grow better.
Frustration Posted January 26, 2022 Author Posted January 26, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: But she didn't kill Dalinar, even if doing so would have let the rest of Roshar grow better. Would it have?
NameIess Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Just now, Frustration said: Would it have? She thought that Odium was going to use Dalinar to kill a ton of people.
Frustration Posted January 26, 2022 Author Posted January 26, 2022 Just now, Nameless said: She thought that Odium was going to use Dalinar to kill a ton of people. She thought it was possible, but what did she think would happened after? We can't see as far as she can, so to say that pruning Dalinar wouldn't have been an overall improvement to Roshar is not something we can safely do.
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 28 minutes ago, Frustration said: Wouldn't evolution be included in Cultivation's base intent? That argument could be made that Evolution is a part of Cultivation, but their are two things to consider with each Shard's intent. The first is that each Shard, while covering multiple related concepts, is fundamentally focused on one or two core ideas. In this case Cultivation is about change in the form of growth, and the natural world. Fundamentally Cultivation by itself is more about plant growth and animal maturation - i.e. to cultivate something, like a garden or a talent. The second, and this is the most important idea, is that when two Shards are combined it isn't just about the new idea they produce, but where they overlap. Cultivation could be called a shard of Change, but she is positive change. Ruin is also a shard of Change, but negative. The combination of Ruin and Cultivation would thus be the Shard Change, even though that is already a part of what each Shard is individually, but collectively they would be all change. Honour arguably already encodes War, but War is the element of Honour highlighted most strongly by Odium, just as Odium's element of War is highlighted by Honour. Cultivation by herself doesn't focus on the idea of life in conflict, but rather on life developing. Odium adds the additional focus on life developing through conflict. 2
ConfusedCow Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Kora reached out and felt the feeble grasps of Taravangian's dying mind. An interesting creation, a lovely work of contrasts. "All flowers grow pale and fall away, my son. We all must change even me." She touched the power. Such heat, "what are the passions of a man compared to the passions of a God?" Kora had experienced countless lives and she felt them all. Ecstasy! Every love, every loss, every joy, every HATE. It burned, Rayse, Tanavast, neither had ever cared for her, never truly known her, never seen her. And this world, none of them appreciated the beauty of it. The endless, impossible, life around them. They hunted her children. They shattered the very lands she had so lovingly wrought! And the outsiders, the interlopers, the pests. Emissarys of lesser Gods sent to peck and meddle and steal from her garden! Cephandrius schemed to unite them against her. Could she confront them, send her creations out to fight and die? She longed to rip them out, to build a mountain of weeds and corpses and cities. Then she saw the way. Her agents would spread from world to world. She need not fight them when she could so easily turn them against each other. She would grow, siphoning off their power, corrupting their intent. She would consume them, people by people. A good garden needs fertilizer. Cancer smiled.
Recommended Posts