teknopathetic

[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

188 posts in this topic

It's an interesting theory and if the Heralds were killing radiants because Ishar had a vision of the future that a radiant would cause the return, then this would be indirectly true. Although also caused by Ishar because of his prediction. (Anyone else not the biggest fan of Ishar?)

I definitely agree, Taln didn't break. I had a theory on what allowed the fused to return but I can't remember right now.

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I both admire and hate the fact that I can totally see this being true... But at the same time, I can't help but wonder if I'm just grasping at straws.

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I’ve seen this theory before, and this does a really good job of presenting all the info that supports it. I definitely think this is true, and it ties into my own theory about Taln not even being insane. (Short summary of that theory: the imprisonment of BAM made the heralds all go insane, not the torture on Braize.)

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1 minute ago, Dannex said:

I’ve seen this theory before, and this does a really good job of presenting all the info that supports it. I definitely think this is true, and it ties into my own theory about Taln not even being insane. (Short summary of that theory: the imprisonment of BAM made the heralds all go insane, not the torture on Braize.)

Taln isn't insane? There's definitely more to the heralds madness than being tortured. As far as we can tell they were fine at the last desolation... err previous desolation. And Taln is the only one who has been on Braize since then. At least most of the others have not. It could be BAM, I don't have a better alternative. Although i don't think we have any evidence as to how that's possible.

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4 minutes ago, KSub said:

It could be BAM, I don't have a better alternative. Although i don't think we have any evidence as to how that's possible.

I could explain the whole theory if you’d like. Maybe I should just make a topic for it.

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I love this theory as it makes me wonder what Shallan's relationship with her mother would be if/when she comes face to face with Chanarach again. Plus, Brandon's accidental "Unnamed Mother" trope might actually be a plot point! 

Edited by teknopathetic
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37 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

 

9D20D1A6-2FC0-48A0-8218-98401D233566.jpeg

Take my storming upvote. :D

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This is such a fun theory. I would love so much for it to be true. 

Quick question: how was Shallan similar to a child of a Returned?

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

3) The Cryptics find out that one of the heralds has children  or they discover a weird child who stands-out and is similar to the child of a Returned.

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39 minutes ago, PleatherDuster said:

This is such a fun theory. I would love so much for it to be true. 

Quick question: how was Shallan similar to a child of a Returned?

Well I don’t know this part. I’m not sure if a child of a herald would have some special powers similar to how Vivenna can shape change. If you recall, Vivenna and Siri are descendants of a Returned. Vivenna also has a higher natural ability to awaken due to her heritage (confirmed by Vasher). Something there is different  

Maybe the divine breath is doing something special to cognitive shadow babies as an “Endowment” for one’s heirs is on brand. But the only children of cognitive shadows we know of are more invested then a regular person. 

So if Shallan is the child of a cognitive shadow, then there is the possibility that she looks different to someone as invested as Hoid. Maybe her aura is different? Maybe she bonds easier. Shallan might have something. It might even be a curse like a propensity to mental illness as well. Who knows.  

The point is Hoid seems flabbergasted to see Shallan at Middlefest. We assumed it was because she was bonded to Pattern. But it turns out Shallan only had a deadeye. So maybe Hoid saw a hint of cognitive shadow descendant power?  
 

And what is this dark presence Hoid says Shallan and her family are fighting? What did he see? Is it an unmade. Is it a cognitive shadow curse? Both? Who knows. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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11 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

And what is this dark presence Hoid says Shallan and her family are fighting? What did he see? 

an Unmade

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

an Unmade

Oh I know that. But it’s still unclear how that relates and what is going on exactly. Again, why the Davars? We have seen anyone with something similar. 

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11 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But it turns out Shallan only had a deadeye.

She still seemingly had functional Lightweaving, so clearly it's more complicated than that exactly, and he may have been able to tell that somehow.

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I have a WOB that supports this... kind of. 

Wetlander

Speaking of the other Prologues… I have a looney theory that the assassin Liss is actually the Herald Chana in disguise. :D

Peter Ahlstrom

Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.

Miscellaneous 2017 (June 1, 2017)

We have seen Shallan's mother onscreen in one of her flashbacks...

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Shallan's mother's eyes are green (RoW 93) but one the official artwork for Chanarach her eyes are blue.

On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

Weird Questions:

1) What broke Taln? He is crazy and insensate for 4000 years and then one day he says "No thank you". Many of us can't figure out what could have broke Taln.

He did not, Odium created a way to bypass the Oathpact with the Everstrom

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2) Why was the Davar family so connected to secret societies despite being a Vaden house of little note? They have connections to the Ghostbloods and the Ghostbloods have handed them a confirmed soulcaster AND possibly a Seon box. Why?

When expanding your secret society to a new country you got to start somewhere. And the Davar family being a Veden family of little note but still of some note make them perfect for helping smugling things.

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3) Why did the cryptic go to Shallan as a child? Lift was chosen due to her strange connection to Cultivation, but why Shallan? And why twice? Connected to that, why is an dark influence attacking the Davar family? Why is Heleran given a shardblade and brought into the skybreakers?

Pattern nearly stated why they wanted to give Shallan a second bound, they're interested in how humans make something new when they break, they're interested in Veil. As of why she had a spren many years before Jashna (but not that much before Kaladin, who have to had started bounding Syl before the scene where he take a quarter-staff for the first time) I have no idea. Note that the Davar estate would attract loads of cryptic with all the secret society stuff going on. For Heleran it's probably the normal procedure for skybreakers hopeful. The dark influence was probably not attacking just the Davar family but the whole region.

On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

4) Why was Shallan's mother so quick to try and kill "one of them".

We don't know how quick she was. Slow enough to get her lover in the house. Not sure for the "one of them" but Radiants did have a pretty bad reputation before Oathbringer.

On 02/02/2021 at 8:14 PM, teknopathetic said:

5) What is Shallan's last secret. There is still something horrible in Shallan's past, and this has something to do with a Seon box and whatever Radiant was created to protect Shallan from. What is worse than killing testament?

Radiant was not created to protect Shallan from her memory, that's Veil's job. Radiant's objective was to be what Shallan was not, a soldier. Her appearance is a mix of Jasnah and Chana because they are the two women Shallan associate the most with the concept of soldier.

Edited by mathiau
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Really cool theory and well thought out.

 

There is one major issue for me.  I don't think any Herald breaking is what started this last Desolation.  The Everstorm is something new.  The gem that Ulim is in was also brought on to Roshar by some other means.  I have my own theories about Taln, and I agree that he didn't break.  I think that's part of his characterization.  But, I don't think Shallan caused the Desolation, because Odium had found a way around the Oathpact by way of the Everstorm.

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1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Shallan's mother's eyes are green (RoW 93) but one the official artwork for Chanarach her eyes are blue.

He did not, Odium created a way to bypass the Oathpact with the Everstrom

When expanding your secret society to a new country you got to start somewhere. And the Davar family being a Veden family of little note but still of some note make them perfect for helping smugling things.

Pattern nearly stated why they wanted to give Shallan a second bound, they're interested in how humans make something new when they break, they're interested in Veil. As of why she had a spren many years before Jashna (but not that much before Kaladin, who have to had started bounding Syl before the scene where he take a quarter-staff for the first time) I have no idea. Note that the Davar estate would attract loads of cryptic with all the secret society stuff going on. For Heleran it's probably the normal procedure for skybreakers hopeful. The dark influence was probably not attacking just the Davar family but the whole region.

We don't know how quick she was. Slow enough to get her lover in the house. Not sure for the "one of them" but Radiants did have a pretty bad reputation before Oathbringer.

Radiant was not created to protect Shallan from her memory, that's Veil's job. Radiant's objective was to be what Shallan was not, a soldier. Her appearance is a mix of Jasnah

and Chana because they are the two women Shallan associate the most with the concept of soldier.

Other than the eye color thing, which Brandon has messed up in the past FYI, none of these points disprove the idea of Chana being Shallans mother.  I agree that Shallan didn't start the Desolation, but this actually seems like a plausible idea for who her mom is.  

 

Also there's a reply above about a WoB that sort of supports this.

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Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Other than the eye color thing, which Brandon has messed up in the past FYI,

Then we should ask Brandon about Chana's eye colour, he probably won't RAFO that.

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none of these points disprove the idea of Chana being Shallans mother.  I agree that Shallan didn't start the Desolation, but this actually seems like a plausible idea for who her mom is.

My objective with these was not to disprove that Chana was her mother, it was to reduce the need for her to be :)

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Also there's a reply above about a WoB that sort of supports this.

The WoB just says Chana was seen in WoK or WoR, I find it unlikely she's Liss since she has a shardblade and Chana's honourblade should still be in Shinovar but these two can't be the only red haired women we've seen in these two books.

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11 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The WoB just says Chana was seen in WoK or WoR, I find it unlikely she's Liss since she has a shardblade and Chana's honourblade should still be in Shinovar but these two can't be the only red haired women we've seen in these two books.

I think part of the connection people drew was that Ash pretty casually talks about getting a Shardblade as if it would be a simple task for her, so perhaps Chana would be able to as well, not necessarily that it's her Honorblade? But that's certainly not hard evidence for it by any means, I don't think there's much in either direction for the theory afaik. (And iirc most of the arguments work just as well for Vedel as well, but the Chana theory caught on more due to that WoB.)

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8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I think part of the connection people drew was that Ash pretty casually talks about getting a Shardblade as if it would be a simple task for her, so perhaps Chana would be able to as well, not necessarily that it's her Honorblade? But that's certainly not hard evidence for it by any means, I don't think there's much in either direction for the theory afaik. (And iirc most of the arguments work just as well for Vedel as well, but the Chana theory caught on more due to that WoB.)

Wait, Ash talked that way?

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42 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Wait, Ash talked that way?

In the Baxil interlude, she just casually muses to herself that maybe she should get a Shardblade.

Quote

The mistress returned, hair somewhat disheveled. She held out a hand. “Padded mallet, Baxil. There’s a full statue back there.”

He responded, pulling the mallet out of the sack and handing it to her.

“Perhaps I should get myself a Shardblade,” she said absently, putting the tool up on her shoulder. “But that might make this too easy.”

“I wouldn’t mind if it were too easy, mistress,” Baxil noted.

Her main concern isn't acquiring a Shardblade, she seems to think she can handle that part, it's that using one would make destroying things too easy.

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4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In the Baxil interlude, she just casually muses to herself that maybe she should get a Shardblade.

Her main concern isn't acquiring a Shardblade, she seems to think she can handle that part, it's that using one would make destroying things too easy.

A lot of Shardblades have gone missing; it makes sense the heralds might know where some might be. 

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Also. We know all the heralds are INSANELY strong and good at fighting

she could probably walk onto the shattered planes and take one from a shardbearer without any trouble 

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