RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Is this the new name for Alethkar or an old one? I'm thinking it's new, like the First Advance was humans taking over the planet, using Shinovar as their base then pushing outward. Now Alethkar is the base for the Singers to do their own Advance and take over? 

This was my first thought as well.  The other possibility and the one I personally think more likely is that the singers originally settled the area during the "second advance."  A period of expansion prior to human arrival.  People don't normally name their homes after stuff they are trying to do to other people.

[Cheat Commando]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

I think we're seeing more and more hints that Leshwi genuinely does like Kaladin.  I don't think she has a secret plan to kill him.  She says she just wants to enslave him, basically, but I think even that is not exactly what she wants.

You sparked this idea in me: what if Leshwi and Venli are exactly the same? They both want the same thing, but both are afraid to admit it to the other?

[Nathrangking]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

My prediction based on this chapter: Venli/Leshwi will capture our man Mr. Stormblessed in an early book assault on Urithiru.  The Fused will win and capture Urithiru, and the rest of the book will be spent in the battle/plans to retake it.

I don't think that is so. The Syl interlude shows team Radiant in Urithiru with Kal there.

[+honorblades]

3 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

I don't think that is so. The Syl interlude shows team Radiant in Urithiru with Kal there.

Could it be that this is the undertone for why Shallan and Adolin go to Lasting Integrity? Their reasoning to the Honorspren being, look, Urithiru is captured, we need to revive the Sibling, if you don’t help us we will all lose. I think that would make a great argument. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by lightweaver spy

[Friendshipspren]

Wait the human who might be of the Fourth Ideal . Jasnah ????

Hmmm , I really don't understand why they would put something like that in the hands of a guy like the  Pursuer.

Also he was the first fused to be killed and that was 6 thousand yrs ago. So the Desolations lasted some 1500 yrs. Finally a real estimate. 

Also Vyre is suffered on Odium's orders. Interesting.

I wonder why Odium likes humans so much and puts them in positions of power and repute ?

First Dalinar then Vyre.

Is he being Speciest as he was human before the Shattering or is it like insurance,  should madness cause the Fused to collapse ?

Also could Odium take the pain of one of the Heralds ? 

Nalan perhaps . 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[+Bliev]

AMAZING.

--Seems the Leshwi as Kaladin enemy/foil theory is dead. Was one of my original feelings, which I backed off of after the last chapter. I was pleasantly surprised to see Venli's hope of connecting with Leshwi on her own independence move so quickly. I like it. And I also love seeing the culture of the singers/Fused come out piece by piece. 

--Definitely agree that it seems the Sibling may be a deadeye, at least the Fused think so, but why would the SF say it was sleeping and to "leave them alone"? 

--I LOVE that Kal beat the pants off the Pursuer and he's so salty about it. Made my day. 

--Moash with the attitude...interesting his place in all of this. What is Odium planning with him??

--Venli as spy...she's definitely going to connect with our team this way. But who? How? And how will Taravangian get Jasnah and Dalinar out of the way? I think King T will meet his maker this book...

 

 

 

[+Harrycrapper]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

So, the Fused "slumber" between Returns but can still think and plan, so it is not senseless. And being trapped in a gem as a Cognitive Shadow... Is that what they did to Jezrien? (Reminds me of Steven Universe, too.)

I definitely didn't think Jezrien actually died. A lot of people think Hemalurgy when they read that scene but it seemed more akin to capturing a spren in a gemstone. 

[agrabes]

Just now, Nathrangking said:

I don't think that is so. The Syl interlude shows team Radiant in Urithiru with Kal there.

Hard to say at this point.  The Syl interlude is probably in the first set based on what we know about the story so far and what is going on during that interlude.  So the Fused attack could be early Part 2.  Or, I could be totally wrong.

2 minutes ago, Cheat Commando said:

You sparked this idea in me: what if Leshwi and Venli are exactly the same? They both want the same thing, but both are afraid to admit it to the other?

I definitely think there's a chance of that.  Leshwi's just the older, wiser, but more beaten down version of Venli.  I think their ultimate goal is the same - achieve an honorable freedom for the singers.  Leshwi's probably seen people get killed for having ideas like Venli's over the years.

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

This chapter was crazy, it almost had a horror feel to it:

I’m glad to finally get confirmation that the Sibling is a deadeye, that’s a thought I’ve had for a while.  I suspect Adolin in the process of reviving Maya will be imperative to the Radiants helping the Sibling live again as well. Let’s just hope they can figure it out before it’s too late for Urithiru... 

Ehh, close. The Sibling was implied to be slipping into slumber (gradually) in the gemstone archives (OB Ch. 87 epigraph, "Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling..."), and Raboniel only considers the Sibling "essentially" a deadeye (functionally equivalent).

Plus, the Stormfather, who is not shy about saying when a bonded spren have been killed by a broken oath and does not really consider reviving a deadeye possible, described the Sibling as "slumbering" to Dalinar, but also refuses to elaborate, saying "Leave them alone. You hurt them enough." (Careful use of a neutral pronoun, too.) Implying that if they did the right actions, they could "hurt them" further.

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wait the human who might be of the Fourth Ideal . Jasnah ????

Hmmm , I really don't understand why they would put something like that in the hands of a guy like the  Pursuer.

Also he was the first fused to be killed and that was three thousand yrs ago. So the Desolations lasted some 1500 yrs. Finally a real estimate. 

Also Vyre is suffered on Odium's orders. Interesting.

I wonder why Odium likes humans so much and puts them in positions of power and repute ?

First Dalinar then Vyre.

Is he being Speciest as he was human before the Shattering or is it like insurance,  should madness cause the Fused to collapse ?

Also could Odium take the pain of one of the Heralds ? 

Nalan perhaps . 

 

I find it interesting they don't know exactly how many folks have progressed through their oaths. But I thought this was Jasnah, yes. I love that Leshwi and the singers know that shard plate = fourth ideal and that's how they know if someone has reached it. So much information lost to time!

I think the humans are less risky, based on what you hear from Leshwi--in that technology could fight the fused, and the fused need singer bodies to inhabit. But Humans are more versatile in this war for Odium, and they can be used in different ways. I don't think Odium cares except to win his freedom and take vengeance. 

[+Bliev]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ehh, close. The Sibling was implied to be slipping into slumber (gradually) in the gemstone archives (OB Ch. 87 epigraph, "Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling..."), and Raboniel only considers the Sibling "essentially" a deadeye (functionally equivalent).

Plus, the Stormfather, who is not shy about saying when a bonded spren have been killed by a broken oath and does not really consider reviving a deadeye possible, described the Sibling as "slumbering" to Dalinar, but also refuses to elaborate, saying "Leave them alone. You hurt them enough." (Careful use of a neutral pronoun, too.) Implying that if they did the right actions, they could "hurt them" further.

Agreed. I think this is just another example of the Fused guessing, or not having full info. But this new "Scholar" fused seems dangerous for that reason. An evil scientist if you will.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Bliev
Sorry for the double post. Got over excited.

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wait the human who might be of the Fourth Ideal . Jasnah ????

Also Vyre is suffered on Odium's orders. Interesting.

I wonder why Odium likes humans so much and puts them in positions of power and repute ?

First Dalinar then Vyre.

Is he being Speciest as he was human before the Shattering or is it like insurance,  should madness cause the Fused to collapse ?

Also could Odium take the pain of one of the Heralds ? 

Nalan perhaps . 

Yeah, the Radiant of the Fourth Ideal is either or both of Jasnah (who had some geometric, armor-like afterimages surrounding her when Adolin turned a corner to see her having physically thrown some soldiers away from her, instead of Soulcasting them), or Shallan ("Formless" as a suppressed OG Shallan may have reached the Fourth Ideal - she certainly had reached the Third Ideal to be able to summon a Patternblade against her mother way back when).

Odium wants the best tools and Vyre and Dalinar are certainly that. What I don't quite get is how crushing humanity would free him from his prison in the Rosharan System, or why would he ever agree to a contest of champions? (He didn't confirm or deny Dalinar's statement that defeating humanity would free him...)

As for taking Nalan's pain - Nale's kind of numb already, isn't he?

[+honorblades]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ehh, close.

I mean sure, it’s not completely confirmed yet. But I do think that nothing we know yet or what the SF has said would be contradictory to the Sibling being a deadeye. 
 

The bondsmith spren are different enough that I can imagine even if the Radiant they bonded dies, they wouldn’t truly be a “deadeye”, like a normal spren should. Just.. sleeping, not aware, and unable to be bonded.
 

“You hurt them enough”, what do we know that a human can do that truly hurts or kills the spren? The Radiant dying, or breaking the bond through broken oaths.
 

Regardless of terminology, the end result is the same. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by lightweaver spy

[+Harrycrapper]

Shallan's already of the Fourth Ideal. She's spoken 3 Truths and assumedly the First Ideal when she was a kid. 

[Innovation]

So the Fused, particularly the Cohesion Ones, can literally build diseases? Is this some kind of Cohesion (unlikely), or are they using a Fabrial with a plaguespren inside? 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Innovation

[Friendshipspren]

Also she tried to use Biological weapons against humans. Dang cool.

 

Ooooooooooo could this be connected to the Ashynite microbes. 

Also could Autonomy be involved.

Spoiler

The Investiture bearing microorganisms in Taldian and the parasites in FoTS make me think of her everytime disease is mentioned.

 

Still the Fused must be pretty advanced to design/breed biological weapons. Even failed ones. 

 

 

[+robardin]

Oh, and Raboniel comments that the humans "have imprisoned some of the Unmade" in gems, while noting how close that is to understanding how to capture Fused in gems as well. Plural. So Dalinar's trick with Nergaoul was not the only time... Lending credence that "Melishi", the Bondsmith of an age past, ended the False Desolation by trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram in a perfect gem, which also broke the singers' Connection to Roshar and made them parshmen (except for the group that had broken free of Odium and refused some kind of bonding with that Unmade).

The fact that that False Desolation ended that way, with the shutdown of Urithiru and the Recreance shortly thereafter, cannot be a coincidence...

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, Harrycrapper said:

Shallan's already of the Fourth Ideal. She's spoken 3 Truths and assumedly the First Ideal when she was a kid. 

I though that too. And that there was some evidence of early shardplate during Thaylen Fields? Although I think Jasnah straight up told her she doesn't have it (see quote from OB below). Lightweavers are weird, so maybe they don't get it until they're full Radiant?

Quote

"Radiant, yes," Jasnah said. "Full? Where's your armor?"

 

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Shallan's already of the Fourth Ideal. She's spoken 3 Truths and assumedly the First Ideal when she was a kid. 

I don't think the statement that "What am I? I'm terrified" at Kharbranth constituted an Ideal, it's not deeply personal enough.

I would say it was more an admission to herself... That she could do something that deep inside, she knew she was blocking.

That said, even if "Shallan" as we know her now, is of the Third Ideal, I'm totally on board with "Shallan" as a LW having reached the Fourth Ideal in the past (and is latently so in the present).

[Cheat Commando]

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

So the Fused, particularly the Cohesion Ones, can literally build diseases? Is this some kind of Cohesion (unlikely) or made using a Fabrial with a plaguespren inside? 

Oh man, maybe that's why the parshlady of Hearthstone was on the lookout for plaguespren. She might have thought it was to avoid disease, but really it was because Raboniel wants them to make plague-rials.

Also, from the first chapter:

Quote

“The wisdom of the Heralds,” Lirin replied. “We should be careful.” Fragments of old manuscripts—translations of translations of translations—mentioned quick-spreading diseases that had killed tens of thousands. Such things hadn’t been recorded in any modern texts he’d been read, but he had heard rumors of something strange to the west—a new plague, they were calling it. Details were sparse.

Sounds like Raboniel already started...

[Friendshipspren]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

What I don't quite get is how crushing humanity would free him from his prison in the Rosharan System, or why would he ever agree to a contest of champions? (He didn't confirm or deny Dalinar's statement that defeating humanity would free him...)

As for taking Nalan's pain - Nale's kind of numb already, isn't he?

Hmmm. Idk if Odium necessarily wants humanity to go extinct unlike the Fused. But yeah it is strange. Why not just hunt the Heralds instead ?

I think Honor's chains is somewhat a function of Cultivation. Like she's the one currently holding the key. And he has to kill her. But she has already maneuvered humans in such a way that humans must be dealt with before. 

Nalan just hides it . Being a robot is his way of coping with the pain. 

He let the mask slip in the Edgedancer novella, remember . 

[+robardin]

Just now, Cheat Commando said:

Oh man, maybe that's why the parshlady of Hearthstone was on the lookout for plaguespren. She might have thought it was to avoid disease, but really it was because Raboniel wants them to make plague-rials.

Also, from the first chapter:

Sounds like Raboniel already started...

The "quick spreading plague to the West" is supposed to be the common cold radiating out from the Purelake due to our worldhopping friends of the 17th Shard, isn't it?

Quote

stormfather (paraphrased)

Does the plague on the Purelake has anything to do with the fact that the magic fish form symbiotic bonds with spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, worldhoppers brought a disease to Roshar that they didn't have before. It's the common cold. Rosharans' Investiture makes it so they're usually a healthy bunch so something like the cold is kind of frightening. "It's a plague of the sniffles."

stormfather [Alternate wording from ZenBossanova's report] (paraphrased)

Another person asked about the plague in the Purelake.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Turns out, that was a pathogen introduced by worldhoppers. People on Roshar normally have greater health than elsewhere in the cosmere because they are more Invested (Stormlight and all that). This plague was what we call… the common cold.

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

 

[Innovation]

1 minute ago, Cheat Commando said:

Sounds like Raboniel already started...

That plague originated from the purelake, where we have a few Seventeenth Sharders poking around. And we do know they brought the common cold to Roshar, thanks to a WoB...

[Cheat Commando]

Aw, man

[Innovation]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

The "quick spreading plague to the West" is supposed to be the common cold radiating out from the Purelake due to our worldhopping friends of the 17th Shard, isn't it?

 

Ah, you beat me to it.