RoW Chapter 2 & 3 Discussion

[book.spren]

9 minutes ago, Harbour said:

Hessina needs to kick his chull more frequently.

AGREED!

Hessina seems to understand Kaladin better because he is just a younger, slightly altered, version of Lirin. It is because of Lirin that Kaladin has the life-ethic that he does but Lirin just doesn't see it because it doesn't match his own.

[Harbour]

Just now, Darkeyed Scout said:

I must have missed something. When did we find out that Honorspren would start rejecting humans again?  

I didnt mean rejecting the current Windrunners, but refusing to join the coalition. Amazon preview for RoW.

Quote

his Windrunners face their own problem: As more and more deadly enemy Fused awaken to wage war, no more honorspren are willing to bond with humans to increase the number of Radiants.

 

[Requiem17]

Wouldn't it be a stunning turn if Renarin was the champion? 

Such amazing chapters! I felt swept up in the awe and tension and vastness, amazing job, Brandon. 

1. I'm going all in on Navani bonding the Sibling this book. 

2. I had guessed Dalinar wouldn't be able to open a Perpendicularity on a whim. Glad to see I'm wrong.

3. My Shallan guess is her last secret is about the Unmade influence on her house.

So many other things to get excited about, but many of you have already said it best. 

4. Since no one is defending Lirin, I will. He's petty and judgemental, yes, but he's not so wrong as I think he seems.

On Dalinar: The Blackthorn is one of the worst killers out there. I also likely won't bow to a real-world warlord unless I see that person being better with my own eyes, and believe it's not a marketing campaign. 

On Kaladin: It's unfortunate that Lirin can't come around and be more accepting of his son in a world where either of them could die any moment. In a less extreme world though, Lirin just comes across as a disappointed father to me. Pretty standard character trait in my asian upbringing. 

Edit: pretty to petty

Edited July 29, 2020 by Requiem17

[Darkeyed Scout]

4 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I didnt mean rejecting the current Windrunners, but refusing to join the coalition. Amazon preview for RoW.

 

Oh, thanks! 

It could just be that all the ones that were willing have already bonded, but there are other honorspren that still hadn't been convinced. So it's not that something recent upset them and made them stop, but that they are still upset about the Recreance. 

[nonix]

2 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

 

On Kaladin: It's unfortunate that Lirin can't come around and be more accepting of his son in a world where either of them could die any moment. In a less extreme world though, Lirin just comes across as a disappointed father to me. Pretty standard character trait in my asian upbringing. 

 

Now that I think of it, it isn't stated in the text and we don't see Lirin's point of view after the fight, but I wonder what his thoughts are seeing Kaladin come back from the fight covered in blood from being stabbed in the neck so many times. Or anyone else now that I think of it, Kaladin has his neck cut a bunch of times, he's probably got a huge amount of blood on him.

[psc92]

Well repeatedly severing a Radiant's spine as a way to incapacitate them is a really smart tactic that I hadn't considered before, also really gruesome to think about.

Now, that being said I wonder if there is some sort of protective barrier that's totally not made of lesser spren, can prevent those sorts attacks, and totally isn't going to happen in this book *cough* *cough*. But in all seriousness the fact that the fused are using that tactic now is a pretty strong indicator that Living Shardplate is happening this book.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

I think this new chapter pretty much proves that the Sibling was the spren Melishi had bonded. It reads "Unfortunately, the Sibling had died during the Recreance." This seems pretty indisputable. The only counter evidence to this I know of is the gem archive (which do suggest the Sibling didnt die during the full Recreance we see at Feverstone), but we don't actually know the order in which the gems were imprinted or the full timeline of the abandonment. Is there anything else I'm missing? As for your idea that they were trapped in a fabrial, I think the below passage from the Stormfather makes it pretty clear that the Sibling had their oaths betrayed.

TL;DR I agree with you the Sibling had to suffer a broken Oath based on everything we know. I do think something else is the cause of the slumber though.

A Bondsmith Had to of Boken Their Oath(s) During the Recreance

I can't get around the almost certainty that Melishi was a Bondsmith needed to capture Ba-Ado-Mishram and had to have been bonded to the Sibling. The event that seemed to be the final straw to trigger the Recreance.

I agree it had to be bonded right before the Recreace and only the Skybreaker Order maintained their Oaths. Only 1 of 10 orders kept their Oaths and we know which one. WoR epigraph ch. 41:

Quote

 "...but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

It's Just A Flesh Wound

I don't think the Sibling is "dead" in the same sense as the other radiant spren. Bondsmith spren don't form blades. Combined with the fact they are indvidually far more powerful than the other radiant spren, it makes me think  different rules apply to them. More powerful, less exposed in the physical realm and it's "withdrawing" may have shielded it somewhat.

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3311

The Sibling was withdrawing before that strike. Something other than broken oaths was bothering it already and may be the main cause of the "slumber". I say that because we do have some idea of the timeline. 

Timeline

They created the gem archive in the first place because they were leaving Urithiru and wanted to leave messages behind. They were leaving Urithiru because it wasn't working properly anymore making living there unsustainable. 

The first zircon talks of the Sibling withdrawing in the past tense, already happened when this first zircon message was made. The second zircon speaks of the plants wilting. Third zircon says the Sibling leaving wasn't on account of the KR arguing among themselves. This all suggests the KR still existed when the Sibling started withdrawing. 

Quote

 

first zircon

"My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent- but I find counter to that theory." second zircon "The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower's functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists." third zircon "Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue."   (OB epigraphs ch. 68 - 70)

 

The emeralds suggest the strike on Ba-Ado-Mishram happened after they left Urithiru. No one came back to record more messages it doesn't seem. The recreance began after that strike so anything in the archives likely predates the recreance, barely.  Quote "Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." 3rd Emerald "We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects." 5th Emerald "Surely this will bring - at long last - the end to war that the Heralds promised us."  Final Emerald https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs#Urithiru_Gem_Archive

Edited July 28, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Truthless of Shinovar]

My storms that was an amazing reading. Reading about transportation was very interesting, it makes me wonder if it will work the same way with Willshapers and Elsecallers. Shallan/Veil/Radiant (Veillanadiant) seems to be doing better, maybe closer to accepting the truth, and the step seems very natural for Shallan’s character. Not a good step, but it makes sense that Shallan is in this place now considering where she was at the end of Oathbringer.

But that third chapter... wow. Radiants have turned full-blown Avengers, helicarrier and all. Seriously though, I got chills when it talked about the Edgedancers leaving the ship to go and heal everyone. Navani is awesome for commanding/creating the Fourth Bridge (which of course it’s named that and it’s the stormin best), and then next chapter we might get to see a full-blown Radiants vs. Voidbringer fight!! Ahhhhhhh!!!!

Edited July 28, 2020 by Truthless of Shinovar

[IcaroRibeiro]

I always thought Shallan 4th/5th truth as something about her present self that she can't handle yet

Like the fact she is an actual ghostblood and enjoy not having a proper allegiance 

She's my favorite character, but I'm quite done with her past. It's not nice, narratively speaking, to have her past presented the second book only to keep a very big detail missing (a detail that seems more important to her than the fact she actually kills her mom)

Whatever she's refusing to accept, I'm really hopping us to discover as soon as possible

Edited July 28, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[SanderFan69]

Syl teasing Kaladin was hilarious. Same with Lift falling as she got off the bridge. I can't wait to see Lift in the second arc. I feel like she is going to be a really important and powerful radiant warrior as she is practically growing up with surges.

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

2. I had guessed Dalinar wouldn't be able to open a Perpendicularity on a whim. Glad to see I'm wrong.

He is not.  This is a separate power.

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Why is Veil hunting the Sons of Honor? Is this a Ghostblood mission?

It seems a radiant mission given that she has sequestered a merchant in the tower and Adolin is in on it.  Also someone, probably Jasnah, caught on to Iailai's betrayal.  I would not be surprised though if the GB are monitoring and approve of taking out the SoH.  One less competitor.

2 hours ago, snoopy said:

Can someone remind me of the definition of 'highmarshal'?  How it ranks among other high ranks, what it entails, etc? It's obviously an important role, significantly higher up that 'captain', but I don't remember much else.  It's not defined in the coppermind wiki and I'm wondering what it specifically means for Kaladin.  

It is kind of like general.  A captain leads troops in the field.  A highmarshal is in charge of general strategy for a specific region or location.

1 hour ago, Asrael said:

The flying airship is pretty sweet, but they have a long way to go until they're truly viable. The fact that they still work based on paired gemstones is a major weakness. As soon as the Fused grasp how they work, they'll just send some soldiers to the shattered plains to destroy the fabrials. I won't be surprised if it happens in this book. 

I think it would be smarter to just get to the proper location with some aluminum.  Attacking a fortified position that probably has at least a few radiants sounds hard.

1 hour ago, book.spren said:

Also, you don't date someone under your command! Yikes! Talk about unethical.

THANK YOU!

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

What if there is another Bondsmith recharging Fused with Voidlight?

Fused don't have bondsmiths IIRC.

[Yezrien]

I hope Lirin isn't too proud to bond a spren and get Progression. He could really put the surge in surgeon.

Also, I love this new Fused. Cool powers, clever combat skills, awesome appearance, great setup for a recurring antagonist. I love the image of Kaladin holding the severed head like Yorick, watching it turn to dust. 

[scm288]

Shallan is crazy.

Like I mean, her multiple personalities seemed to imply in the last book. (I haven't reread that one in full yet? Bear with me.)

But now, listening to Veil think of Shallan as a third person, it becomes much clearer: she isn't just assuming a different personality; she isn't just crafting a persona, or putting on a mask, or compartmentalizing herself in a useful way:

Shallan is crazy.

Also, when Veil mentions acknowledging the 'full truth,' and Shallan represses it, my thought: There's more??? 

Edited July 28, 2020 by scm288

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

I think this new chapter pretty much proves that the Sibling was the spren Melishi had bonded. It reads "Unfortunately, the Sibling had died during the Recreance." This seems pretty indisputable. The only counter evidence to this I know of is the gem archives (which do suggest the Sibling didnt die during the full Recreance we see at Feverstone), but we don't actually know the order in which the gems were imprinted or the full timeline of the abandonment. Is there anything else I'm missing? As for your idea that they were trapped in a fabrial, I think the below passage from the Stormfather makes it pretty clear that the Sibling had their oaths betrayed.

I think we have a good enough sense of the broad timeline, if not all the specifics, from the combination of the gemstone archive, the in-universe Words of Radiance, and Dalinar's visions. The notable events are the Abandonment of the Tower, the Recreance Event, and the Death of Honor. The gemstone archives all happened before all three of these events, and their messages reference the withdrawal of the Sibling, the failure of the Urithiru tower, and the plan to destroy the Voidbringers (but not its execution).

But that takes us to about Chapter 30 in Words of Radiance, where we learn that Melishi returned to his tent (another reference to the abandonment of the tower, IMO) and changed his plan. Chapter 32 mentions the execution of Kazilah (who I think is the speaker of the "I foresaw it" gemstone, a Radiant with a corrupted spren like Renarin). Chapter 38 has the Recreance proper, which utilizes Melishi's unique powers. And since the events of Chapter 38 are recorded in Honor's visions, it was at some point after this that he died, created the visions, and merged (so to speak) with the Stormfather.

In terms of "hurt," I thought we had a Syl passage saying the Stormfather was hurt in the Recreance, but I'm unable to track it down. The forums are full of references to it, but the only passage I see quoted is from Pattern:

Quote

"Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. SPren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance."

Which, while I think it would be a bit of a non sequiter if the Stormfather wasn't bonded, the strict wording does allow for an unbonded Stormfather. I'll need to keep digging, see if I can find the passage I'm thinking of, because that really is the cornerstone of my view that Melishi was bonded to the Stormfather, and if that passage doesn't exist then there isn't much to stand on. (Semi-related, I also suspect that part of why Honor's CS merged with the Stormfather was because the Stormfather was dying from the Recreance, and that was specifically how he survived.)

But the Sibling being hurt and retreating, I don't think necessarily has anything to do the Recreance. I think the content platespren provide a good contrast - they're not bonded (and in fact their bond has been broken), but they're fine where they are. I think the Sibling and the Urithiru tower were mistreated by all the Radiants. The "you hurt them" line isn't saying that humanity, as represented by Melishi, hurt the Sibling through the Recreance. I think it's saying that the Knights Radiant, as a group, collectively through their actions hurt the Sibling and caused it to retreat.

I think the "during the Recreance" phrase should be taken as "time of the Recreance," which encompasses the False Desolation and Abandonment of the Tower. Like how the invasion of Poland in 1939 technically wasn't a part of World War II, because war hadn't been formally declared by any parties. In broad timelines, the Sibling fell asleep during the Recreance time period.

[Kuram]

 

1 hour ago, Darkeyed Scout said:

I must have missed something. When did we find out that Honorspren would start rejecting humans again?  

The updates synopsis on storefronts, amazon for example. 

49 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The emeralds suggest the strike on Ba-Ado-Mishram happened after they left Urithiru. No one came back to record more messages it doesn't seem. The recreance began after that strike so anything in the archives likely predates the recreance, barely

I think that also means the gem they used to seal the unmade is probably not hidden away within the tower.  Aimia, then?  Where else would radiants have trusted to hide it?

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

He is not.  This is a separate power.

I think it's the same power, just a way smaller scale/localized thing.  He needs to be able to pierce all three realms in order to draw investiture I believe.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Kuram

[IcaroRibeiro]

I think there must be misconception here. This is what amazon synopsis reported:

Quote

At the same time that Kaladin Stormblessed must come to grips with his changing role within the Knights Radiant, his Windrunners face their own problem: As more and more deadly enemy Fused awaken to wage war, no more honorspren are willing to bond with humans to increase the number of Radiants.

The currently bonded honorspren are probably younger ones, born after the recriance. The most of Honorspren were born before recriance, including the ones who have bonded before, and they still don't trust humankind and are afraid to help in this Desolation

It might not really be a reflection of Kaladin's (or anyone) mistakes

Edited July 28, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Kuram]

5 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

The currently bonded honorspren are probably younger ones, born after the recriance.

I didn't think very many were born afterwards?  I thought Syl was one of the youngest, and she still lived before the recreance.

I think it would be a pretty easy case to make to the honorspren though.  Like "hey look, we already know the truth and we didn't abandon our oaths.  In fact we have new people swearing every day."

[nbozb]

56 minutes ago, Requiem17 said:

On Dalinar: The Blackthorn is one of the worst killers out there. I also likely won't bow to a real-world warlord unless I see that person being better with my own eyes, and believe it's not a marketing campaign. 

I couldn't find the words to explain how I felt about Lirin and Dalinar, but this is it. I don't blame Lirin at all about how he thinks of Dalinar. Kaladin on the other hand... I can see where he's coming from, but really Lirin? I still love Lirin though - I didn't expect to like him nearly as much as I do, but I really do enjoy his viewpoints, and his character. He makes some very valid points.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

6) the Fused is leaving a body behind! Also that's not quite teleportation, they're zipping around in spren-like form, and rebuilding their body. Is this a difference in mechanics between their Surgebinding and standard Surgebinding? Is Odium merely mimicking Surgebinding? Or is the standard Surge of Transportation the same. I did suggest this as a way to pseudo-teleport but I wasn't expecting Transportation to utilize this! I thought it would use mini-Perpendicularities! What is happening!

1. His body is suspiciously well adapted to his role. That is what forms do.
2. Oath gates do not leave dead bodies behind and the transition is so fast that it is not noticed.
3. Jasnah escaping into Shadesmar did not leave a crumbling corpse behind.

Conclusion: That is not Transportation. We are seeing a Form of Power, who is a Fused at the same time.

[Goatbringer]

4 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

And KalaLyn is over bevor it was ever shipped ... 

I shipped them so hard in book 3. Two chapters into book 4 and I'm devastated. 

[Honorless]

Why would the Fused's body crumble though

the only similar looking phenomenon I can think of is Wyndle's crystals

[+Oltux72]

One more thing, how clever is Sylphrena really? And Kaladin for that matter?

He was flying and observed while the fog lifted. Yet somebody is supposed to describe him to the point that he has a shash brand on his forehead? You want to tell me that some bored watchman saw Kaladin so clearly that he could describe him to the point of recognising a glyph on his forehead? And frankly how many Singers can read glyphs? And he reported it so fast that they could make a drawing and got a Fused who cannot fly to the town? Nope, I am sorry that sighting was arranged to cover their spy.

[+Child of Hodor]

29 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I think that also means the gem they used to seal the unmade is probably not hidden away within the tower.  Aimia, then?  Where else would radiants have trusted to hide it?

Aimia is a good guess. It's unclear when the Scouring of Aimia was though. It may not have been abandoned and secretly guarded at that time. 

Could be Herdaz and that's why Odium is willing to throw "tens of thousands" of soldiers lives away on that "strategically unimportant country" in the past year.

The strike probably took place near-ish Feverstone keep, because the first radiants to quit went there afterwards the strike. Also one of the gemstones mentions the enemy pushing towards it and speculates they want Rall Elorim.  

Quote

"The enemy makes another push toward Feverstone Keep. I wish we knew what it was that had them so interested in that area. Could they be intent on capturing Rall Elorim?" Third Topaz 

Rall Elorim is in Iri, far northwest Roshar off the Reshi Sea. Herdaz borders the Reshi Sea, but the complete other side of it. Aimia is a bit closer. If they hid it before they gave up their powers they could have put it a lot of places, otherwise it's near Iri.  

[Karger]

46 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I think it's the same power, just a way smaller scale/localized thing.  He needs to be able to pierce all three realms in order to draw investiture I believe.

You need to puncture all three realms to do any magic really. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

30 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I didn't think very many were born afterwards?  I thought Syl was one of the youngest, and she still lived before the recreance.

Chronologically she is the oldest actually.  She is also pretty young because she was asleep since shortly before the recreance.

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Conclusion: That is not Transportation. We are seeing a Form of Power, who is a Fused at the same time.

I don't see how that is possible.  The gemheart is so occupied by a regular fused that they can't even keep the original cognitive aspect.  I think it much more likely this is just the void equivalent of transportation.

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He was flying and observed while the fog lifted. Yet somebody is supposed to describe him to the point that he has a shash brand on his forehead? You want to tell me that some bored watchman saw Kaladin so clearly that he could describe him to the point of recognising a glyph on his forehead? And frankly how many Singers can read glyphs? And he reported it so fast that they could make a drawing and got a Fused who cannot fly to the town? Nope, I am sorry that sighting was arranged to cover their spy.

Fairly good guess.  I don't think I can come up with a good counter.  Maybe Kaladin was flying really low to try and avoid sky patrols?

[Harbour]

I would like to see Adolin's reaction on Kaladin and Lyn dating and then breaking up.

Quote

Adolin jokingly patted Kaladin on the shoulder.
"Welcome to the club, bridgeboy".