16062020 - TheDwarfyOne - Prologue and Chapter One (V) - (3043 words)

[TheDwarfyOne]

A second draft. Hopefully this cleaned up things like genre and unsympathetic character.

[Mandamon]

Well, this is definitely clearer in terms of overall arc. I think the first few pages could be cut down or away, and start at the fight, which is the whole reason for the prologue.

My main problem is still A, if we are going to be following him for the whole book. So far I have gathered:

-He's a prince, but seems to know nothing about how the object he's studying is directly connecting with the king, his father (I assume).

-He can be drawn into random conversation and give up state secrets and by small talk. He's willing to invite complete strangers to mess with his research.

-He shirks responsibility even when he's on a deadline and under heavy pressure.

I mean, I can see why the king might have shuttled him off to a research job, but I'm still concerned about his motivation, and also about his competence to study this artifact. So if we look at the character sliders of Proactiveness, Sympathy, and Competence, he's sort of low on the last two, which makes it hard to connect to him. He's a bit low on the first one too, since he's deciding to rest instead of working on the artifact.

 

Notes while reading:
pg 1: "“Okay,” he said."
This doesn't really add anything. You could remove it and let the next sentence carry the answer.

pg 1: "then climbed the rope and disappeared from view."
--I was not expecting him to shimmy out of sight like a monkey...

pg 2: "but I don’t doubt him. Or his men"
--At this point the character is introduced, but I still have no idea what's going on. They're fighting...someone...about something.

pg 2: "They waited for some time"
--and then they wait. If you have to wait to get to the action at the beginning of a book, you might need to start closer to the action.

pg 2: "He shoved a pair of goggles over his eyes and stepped out, sword raised, blocking the entrance"
--I feel like it might be better to start here.

pg 2: "trained to take advantage of his enemy’s disorientation, swept his sword down. His blade scored the man’s collarbone, missing the throat."
--He's trained to take opponents off guard, but when creates the perfect chance, he misses?

pg 2: "hands red"
--except his neck is cut, not his hands.

pg 2: "He shouted out and the group retreated"
--sooo...why is he retreating when the battle is starting? Wouldn't he come back at P, especially after receiving a cut?

pg 2: "He was not cold."
--not sure why this is relevant.

pg 3: "Much like P’s first battle"
--Is this his second? I gathered he'd had a lot of fights. Why is he thinking of the first? Is it comparable to this one in some way?

pg 3: "Bronze armour had protected them from the tribesmens’ stone axes."
--yeah, this seems more like a slaughter, and I'm not too sympathetic toward P.

pg 3: "I saw them after that flash of light."
--what flash? The one on his sword? That didn't seem to do much. If there was another more powerful one, I'd rather see that scene.

pg 4: "an object of pagan worship, if the rumours were true"
--there are a lot of colonialist overtones in this...I'm wondering why they're massacring indigenous(?) people who seem to have no chance against them.

pg 4: "You go to stasis. It will not be bad.”
--that's an interesting way of putting it.

pg 4: "without a reflective surface"
--not sure I understand this, which might be alright at this point. I'm not sure what a reflective surface has to do with anything. Any object can receive light. Do they have to reflect sunlight from an object into another object to "charge" it?

pg 5: "He walked a few steps unaided and, feeling more confident, stooped beside the boy’s body."
--and he's blistered with sunburns, right?

pg 6: "Fit some desert artifact’s abilities into T orthodoxy"
Ah, this makes a lot more sense than last time.

pg 7: "My friend says you’re a prince"
--strange that he didn't know the stone was to go to his father(?) then?

pg 8: "There was no polite way to say no."
--He sort of already did, and isn't he on an urgent errand?

pg 8: "I wondered what you thought of the northern border dispute."
--I thought they had something important to talk about? Seems like they're making small talk.

pg 10: "What’s there to tell,” she breathed."
--really don't understand why the prince, who has a lot more important things to do, and is accosted by random people who want to talk about something unclear, is even staying around for this. Why is he tempted to stay around? There's no reason to talk to them at all.

pg 10: "he guessed she’d want to see it."
--now he's contemplating letting the random people he met into his research lab to mess with a powerful artifact disputed between the king and the high priest? I don't believe that.

pg 10: "The man is entitled to a secret or two.”
--he's entitled to all his secrets. He met them about a minute ago.

pg 10: "But, em, thank you for the talk. I enjoyed it.” For a moment, he’d felt his worries ease."
--they didn't really have a talk, and why would it make him less worried that randos have heard about the powerful artifact he's studying?

pg 11: "His job was on the line"
--buuuuut he's a prince, right?

pg 11: "But A felt he deserved a rest and aimed for his accommodation"
--he deserves a rest when he just blabbed about a secret artifact and his job is on the line?

[Turin Turambar]

Hi!

1) well, that infodump happened fast...

3) "P had been much younger" ditto.

6) Is this the same story with the automaton and the scholar who with the pet?

11) I'm not sure who is who at this point. The At is the protag, and then there are the two girls. The other A is his master?

Overall...the prologue seems like a lot of infodump in the beginning, but I like the necklace bit. Also, I feel like there are too many people for the first scene for me to follow. I enjoyed it, but I don't know why I should look forward to the next chapter.

 

 

[Sarah B]

This draft is certainly an easier read! I miss some of the depth and texture from the last version though.

Iron being reflective: bronze can also be very reflective when polished. I would have thought the value of iron over bronze would be its strength.

A couple POV breaks: "Hence the goggles." And the explaination of the term 'glint' both seem to address the reader directly. 

Ivd stroked his hilt. "Yes," he said, "R." He paused, "Why..." This read very choppy for me for coming from one speaker. I think either the said or the pause could be cut out without any loss.

"The prefect" I'm not an expert on titles but it seems like Prefect may need to be capitalized, especially when it comes with 'The.'

This version seems completely different, I'm interested to see if or how it intersects with characters from the previous version.

 

[shatteredsmooth]

Overall, this draft was a much smoother read. The prologue and the first chapter feel much more closely related.

My one complaint about the prolouge was that I kept having to re read to make sure I knew who was who. The two prominent characters had very similar voices and alternating between referring to them by titles as well as names didn't help. The POV also seemed distant. 

In chapter 1, I have a decent idea of what A wants and his voice is a lot more distinct. The POV was tighter. There was a good balance of dialogue, description, and internal thought. 

As I read:

"He was not cold." This line seems to have come out of nowhere. On a second read through, I realized it was related to a line from earlier, but I didn't make that connection until I read twice. 

"A knew he needed answers..." Clear motive. Good!

"Fit some desert artifact into T orthodoxy or find another career." This line has good voice and tells me what the stakes are. 

"triskelion" Every time I see this word, I think of the S.H.I.E.L.D. triskelion in Cap America: Winter Soldier 

"Prince A..." Wait, he is a prince? Then why is he so worried about a job?

"...give me the artifact if they wanted it distanced from the royal family..." I didn't get this impression on my first read through. 

"For a moment, he'd felt his worries ease."  I hadn't noticed his worries really ease at all. 

"job on the line, maybe even his life." Nice stakes, but I might need a little more about why he needs a job doing research if he is a prince. Is it because this is his passion and he'll be distraught if he looses it? Or is he disowned from the royal family and needs the income? There are hints he is more invested in research than politics, but I think I would feel more grounded if I had a slightly more concrete idea about what losing the job would mean for him.

"Experiments could wait until tomorrow." Not a bad last line, but I also feel like my expectations for a first chapter were somewhat unfulfilled. There is a purpose, and stakes. A gets information that moves him towards the purpose, but there isn't any big push to move us along. There isn't something to really push me into the next chapter. 

[TheDwarfyOne]

 

Thanks for critiquing. Y'all are great.

@Mandamon

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Well, this is definitely clearer in terms of overall arc. I think the first few pages could be cut down or away, and start at the fight, which is the whole reason for the prologue.

I had wondered that myself! But so much juicy exposition is in the previous bit. (I've edited the pages down and tried to slip the exposition into the fight scene and its aftermath. I think it definitely comes out better. Thanks.)

Quote

He's a prince, but seems to know nothing about how the object he's studying is directly connecting with the king, his father (I assume).

 

Yep, I need to make the connection A has to the royal family clearer. I was wondering if I could get away with doing that later though. But a few people have pointed out confusion. I may also need to make the connection (and conflict) between royal and religious power more obvious.

Quote

He can be drawn into random conversation and give up state secrets and by small talk. He's willing to invite complete strangers to mess with his research.

He didn't, though? If you're referring to the conversation with the two young uns. He didn't spill, Master H did. Though now that I think about it, the conversation with old drunky should show that he was desperate enough for info that he risked spilling state secrets in public.

Quote

So if we look at the character sliders of Proactiveness, Sympathy, and Competence

That's a snazzy way to think of it, thanks!

I hope I've patched up the rest of your comments as well. It's very helpful seeing what confuses people - I seem to have an issue with that atm. No doubt it'll come with time.

@Turin Turambar

The not knowing why we should look forward to the next chapter is a common issue, methinks. Thanks for the feedback!

@Sarah BI miss the depth too! But I think it was getting in the way of legibility. I figure it's best to diffuse that stuff over a few chapters.

Quote

Iron being reflective: bronze can also be very reflective when polished. I would have thought the value of iron over bronze would be its strength.

I'm gonna go into more depth on the magic later. But different materials have different properties when revesced off. Iron inspires brighter, blinding light.

Quote

"The prefect" I'm not an expert on titles but it seems like Prefect may need to be capitalized, especially when it comes with 'The.'

 

I don't think so. 'The king ate his breakfast' as opposed to 'The King ate his breakfast'. 'The mayor decreed' as opposed to 'The Mayor decreed'.

Thanks for the critique!

@shatteredsmooth

Quote

The two prominent characters had very similar voices and alternating between referring to them by titles as well as names didn't help. The POV also seemed distant. 

Indeed? I'll go through again editing this. Thanks.

Quote

 he is a prince. Is it because this is his passion and he'll be distraught if he looses it? Or is he disowned from the royal family and needs the income? 

 

Yep, clarifying this.

Quote

"triskelion" Every time I see this word, I think of the S.H.I.E.L.D. triskelion in Cap America: Winter Soldier

 

Oh boy, do tell, what's that?  I hate it when people load words I want to use with preconceptions, hehe.

Thanks for reading through it.

---

Issues:

The prologue

A's career motivation and confusion over connection to royal family. His character 'sliders' not being well adjusted.

No oomph to propel us into the next chapter.

 

 

[shatteredsmooth]

3 hours ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

Oh boy, do tell, what's that?  I hate it when people load words I want to use with preconceptions, hehe.

 

https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Triskelion

It's just a building from a comic to movie adaptation. I'm not sure how widespread the association would be.  

Edited June 19, 2020 by shatteredsmooth

[Robinski]

Hey, glad to read this again.

(page 1)

- POV issue: (unless you're going for 3rd Omnipotent?) We get Pet’s feelings, then we’re in I’s head. Pet is described as ‘the b----lord’, which again I think is outside his POV, although we seem to be in his head.

- “which made it unpopular” – What? The people, the magic, the god? Specificity is important for clarity.

- I thought that they were guarding the crevasse, since I had been raided, but in fact they are pursuing? Not as I excepted, but okay.

- First page reaction: Quite a lot of exposition at the beginning. I can see it’s important to establish something of the nature of the world at the character, might. Some of sounds a bit unnatural to me, and probably could be fed in more slowly. Some of worked fine though, I thought. I've got a clear idea of what is going on in the immediate situation though, so that's good.

(page 2)

- "Without pausing, Pet irradiated." - If he doesn't pause, why do we need to be told that? I heard some good writing advice on a podcast which was, 'Don't described what doesn't happen, or is not there, it is always going to be less compelling that writing what does happen.'

- "The material, though rare, was highly prized" - I get what you mean, but the phrasing is kind of counterintuitive, to me. If something is rare, it usually is highly prized, so 'though' sounds weird here, IMO.

- Iron swords: so, I thought iron blades were black or dark. Now a steel blade would reflect light all day long, but I'm not sure an iron one would. I'm not expert, but I have a feeling.

- "bowmen appeared along the lip of the crevasse" - This sounded quite casual to me. What are they doing, are they firing, or just standing there?

- "He was not cold" - I sense this is meant ironically, but I'm not sure I've got a clear picture of what he did. Something with the sun, but did it actually make him warm?

- Second page reaction: Okay, there's some fighting. I don't even feel any threat from the tribesmen. I see exactly one of them, and there's not real description, so I feel no threat. I mean, one guy? Is there any reason that Pet is not faced by a hundred ravening seven foot tall raiders, or even a dozen, and manages to vanquish them? I'm rather underwhelmed. He managed to cut one guy after flashing the sun in his eye. Didn't even kill him.

(page 3)

- "A second group of melee fighters" - I have never heard this term. Surely, they are just fighters, soldiers, militia men, infantry.

- "Not bad, glint" - So, he's using glint like a nickname for Pet? Or like a general term, in the way one might say 'Not bad, mage'?

- "They seemed confused. Scared, even" - Confused. Why is this news to anyone? Have they not employed the talents of a glint (like this?) before? Ahhhh, it's a slang term. It's fine. Nothing wrong here, I have an explanation in good time.

- "stroked his hilt" - Err, what now? I don't know how to read this gesture other than a in a phallic sense.

- "blinked at the sudden question" - I feel that it is not the fact that the question is sudden that catches him off guard, but that it's the nature, the content of the question that is surprising, unexpected.

- "Anything which prevents raids" - stakes. This sounds like it makes sense to do anything that prevents greenfly on roses. I don't get an sense that this matters to Pet at all. My expectation is for a line like 'Flushing out these scum makes as much sense for me as it does for you. These raids are a thorn in my side." Etc.etc. Just more engagement from Pet with the situation. Does it really matter so little to him? If it's a misdirection, I'm not quite reading it.

(page 4)

- Prologue reaction: First off, I enjoyed the previous prologue more. It had grandeur, scale, more interesting characters. It had big stakes: a city dying, burning; a massive creature made by misguided wizards(?)/scientists(?). It had a female character, who could quite easily have been 'adjusted' to have more agency. It had more interesting and engaging dialogue (not in style, but in subject, IMO). 

This prologue, there is some interesting stuff in relation to magic, but there is no sense of scale, or threat (really). The enemy is pathetically weak, and there is not sense of great stakes. I've got to say I think the scene feels clunky and a bit fantasy formulaic. There's nothing surprising, but most importantly, I don't really feel that interested in the characters, and not being engaged with them, I don't really care what happens to them. The characters in the first prologue had flaws, had multiple dimensions, I felt, and reacted to the scene, the events, emotionally, which I don't really get here.

Are these characters in the story, or do these events happen much earlier? This reads to me rather like a chapter, looking at low-level events that seem unlikely to echo through history.

(page 5)

- Yeah, you see these events follow on directly from the prologue, it seems to me. They do appear not to be separated from the prologue in time or distance, and anything else. I think, from what I recall reading and learning from WE, and what I have come to accept as being completely reasonable, a prologue is for telling the reader about something that cannot be shown reasonably in a standard chapter, timeline, POV, etc. I think it's a chapter, personally, but each, the more I critique the less sure about some of my comments I become.

(page 6)

- "Old Pet had other ideas" - Yes, see this follow straight from the first part.

(page 8)

- Are's language is very formal. In this setting of a bar, and since he's presumably had a few, I would think it would sound more natural if he used more contractions in his speech. 'She is always like that', 'She will buy...' and 'Our table is right here.' - Clearly, I am not say this is wrong!! it is what it is. If you intend that this young man is very formal, uptight and well-educated then fair enough. In that case, it might assist to have At think of him that way, to show it's deliberate? Just a suggestion.

- “I’ll -” - beware of the use of '-'. You see all sorts on here, but good layout and correct use of punctuation is important, and I think most publishers, agents and editors will expect and want writers to know what they are doing. Here is a good source:

https://www.touchstone-editing.com/2017/10/mini-lesson-punctuating-interrupted.html

We've had some discussion about this stuff on the Craft Book thread. I honestly believe that serious writers have an obligation to learn this stuff and do it properly. Punctuation is there for a reason, and works in a particular way and we don't get to just do what we like. Rules can be broken to a purpose and with a specific intention. But I think that to break rules, we need to know how they work and why they are there. This is my belief. I think it's something we all should think about.

- "a tray of drinks" - did no one ask him what he wanted? It's a small detail, but without it, I think it just communicates to the reader that the drink is just a device for the conversation, and the tavern is needed for the scene to take place, but has no real texture of its own.

- I think the pretext for this conversation is weak. A total stranger bars At's way from exiting the tavern and he just gives in, sets aside his important task, and sits down for a drink with two people he does not know from Adam? It doesn't seem plausible to me.

I preferred the previous scene. Once again, it had much more substance than this one, more character, more texture. Okay, there were issues with how the female character was treated, but this female character has no substance. I don't know her demeanour, her appearance (in terms of character). The conversation is artificial, for me. They sit down and start firing complicated political question at him. It feels like it's all set up as a device to deliver plot. It feels unnatural to me. The previous scene felt entirely natural. Exposition was delivered around the events of the scholar visiting him. At was sequestered away in him rooms: that felt natural. Now, we're in the generic fantasy tavern scene. Tavern scenes have to be strong and characterful to stand out from the literally hundreds of others.

- I'm getting frustrated. The style is good, but I'm lacking immersion, intrigue, character, colour. These things were present in the first version, but I don't get now in this version.

(page 9)

- "lifted his glass and took a long drink" - Of what?! 

- "campaign was doomed to failure" - I just feel there's a great big exposition flag here. 'Pay attention, plot details coming.'

- I feel that Har is the convincing note in this scene. He behaves in a realistic way, adds colour, makes choices that make sense.

(page 10)

- "They both stared at At" - I'm still struggling with the fact that At can't how transparent these two are gouging him for information. I guess he's a bit sheltered an unworldly, but I'm shouting at the page "These two are bad." Either that or artificial plot constructs.

- "The man is entitled to a secret or two" - He's entitled to his privacy, is what he's entitled to, and not being trapped into a conversation he doesn't want. It tends to show At being weak-willed as well. Which maybe he is: not especially compelling character trait for a main character.

- "For a moment, he’d felt his worries ease" - But he showed no desire to have this talk with these people whose characters are almost completely blank. And we did not really get enough of At's emotional reaction to them to see his emotion change during the conversation, to reveal that he was coming to enjoy it. So, is he lying here? I don't know.

Overall 

The writing is good, the style, the flow. it's easy to read. I made a handful of LBL comments in text, I'll email them, but almost nothing. I like the writing.

I guess you shied away from the first version because of the issues raised with the female characters? I'll stand by what I said above, that I think the first version has more character, more colour, more engagement in the world, and that the issues could quite easily be addressed be tweaking the character of the two female 'roles', and ho they are treated by and in the scenes, but retaining the scenes themselves.

The new characters here, two main parts in the prologue and the two random, blank people in the bar; I just feel they are so much less interesting than the characters we have 'lost'. And the locations, the high hall with balcony and At's office, were more colourful, more evocative of location.

If I was guessing, I would say that you have been writing and editing the first version for some time, have lived with it, embellished and improved it, whereas this new version feel like a first draft, an outline, without the detail and depth that comes from editing, and editing several times.

Sorry not to be more positive. I'm trying to help. If this is the version you are going with, I think it needs punched up in several ways.

[Robinski]

On 17/06/2020 at 11:24 PM, Sarah B said:

I miss some of the depth and texture from the last version though.

Yes, this. @Sarah B says it better than my rambling.

On 19/06/2020 at 9:52 AM, TheDwarfyOne said:

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He can be drawn into random conversation and give up state secrets and by small talk. He's willing to invite complete strangers to mess with his research.

He didn't, though? If you're referring to the conversation with the two young uns. He didn't spill, Master H did. Though now that I think about it, the conversation with old drunky should show that he was desperate enough for info that he risked spilling state secrets in public.

My problem is that fact that he sits down with them at all. 

What I meant to finish with in my detailed comments is that I feel the choices here, in this version, are not based in character or setting, I think they are based in plot, which I feel is a problem.

On 19/06/2020 at 9:52 AM, TheDwarfyOne said:

Iron inspires brighter, blinding light.

Seriously, research this. I'm not convinced iron is reflective as worked without being alloyed or treated to make steel. I have not done exhaustive research on this, but all the images I can find of iron weapons (as opposed to steel) are black.

I'll say again, I'm kind of disappointed you completely chucked out the two scenes that you started with. Surely, those are the scenes you wanted to write. That is how you wanted the story to start. There were ways to fix the issues with those scenes without losing the scenes. The scenes that we now have, a fight scene and a tavern scene, are much more fantasy generic, and I think less interesting because of that.

Okay, so since this is 'a wonderfully brutal writing group'TM, if I picked up the book in a store and read the first version of this story (with the issues address), I might well buy it. Reading this version, I wouldn't. Sorry!

[TheDwarfyOne]

Never apologise for writing an honest critique, @Robinski! There aren't enough of them in the world, and they are to be treasured.

The reasons for changing the setting so drastically:

1) I felt it made more sense to the narrative to show where the stone came from.

2) The prologue was giving conflicting notions of genre. There was a robot so people assumed steampunk, etc.

3) It would be better to insert the relevant information from that prologue in other ways throughout the narrative, whereas the stone is much more immediately relevant.

I've changed it a bit since that, so hopefully some of your other issues have been addressed. Good point on separating the prologue a bit more from the main story.

Interesting point about setting. I did flow down conventional lines, and without realising it. Hrmmmm.

 

As for Are's lack of contractions, it's because he's a 'foreigner' from the west.

[Robinski]

31 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

Never apologise for writing an honest critique, @Robinski! There aren't enough of them in the world, and they are to be treasured.

Not everyone is so enlightened

31 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

1) I felt it made more sense to the narrative to show where the stone came from.

Totally understand. In that case, I'd like the first scene to word harder to engage me, excite me, enthral me.

32 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

2) The prologue was giving conflicting notions of genre. There was a robot so people assumed steampunk, etc.

Totally fair comment. A pity, I like the dynamics, the blocking, the appearance, the mood of that scene. There was loads of conflict, character flaws, all that good stuff. I'd like more of that in the new prologue.

34 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

nteresting point about setting. I did flow down conventional lines, and without realising it. Hrmmmm.

I think this is a textbook example of low-hanging fruit. Definition can be found on the Writing Excuses website (I think), if you need it. I can expand, if that's helpful.

35 minutes ago, TheDwarfyOne said:

As for Are's lack of contractions, it's because he's a 'foreigner' from the west.

Ah, see, if you had confirmed that for me, I would not have commented at all, but since I didn't know that, it stood out for me.

[kais]

Making it in just under the wire!

Overall

Better than last time for sure, and there's some good tension with the mysterious artifact. But the first chapter lacks any sort of arc, and most of the worldbuilding is done through exposition. It's a lot of names and events and people and they're hard to hold on to because I'm not yet invested in anything other than the artifact, and the boy who had it. I think that kid had more development than the other characters, so I'm sad he died!

 

As I go

- pg 1: I believe the rules of writing state that if a character has an apostrophe in their name, it must be fantasy, either high or sword and socrery

- pg 2: A tribesman stood feet away <-- how many? Two? Two hundred? Vague

- pg 2: irradiated..<--??? And then they all died from radiation exposure?

- these first three pages have a lot of words and definitions and names, but no real buy in. I don't much care about the battle because I don't know the characters at all, or the world, or the stakes

- once we get to the boy it becomes much more interesting. I'd say you could cut much of those first three pages

- pg 8: the intro to this chapter here was smooth and the tension from the artifact carried the generic bar scene until about page eight. Now we have new characters, with new names, and worldbuilding dialogue but I want to be shown it, not told. Right now it won't stick because my interest is the artifact, not yet any of the people.

- pg 11: Not sure what the arc is of this chapter. It was mostly dialogue, but even that didn't actually advance the chapter. This read more like a 'flesh out the world' exercise, and while it did that a little, it was mostly through exposition. In revisions, might help to think about what forward momentum you want the chapter to have, then outline the start (here, already strong, there's a cool magic artifact!), middle (meeting people? worldbuilding?), and end (EVENT! or REVEAL!)