Oathbringer questions about inconsistency and rants

[Long try]

It's been quite a long time since my last post. During the period, I've finished OB, finally. As some guy here predicted, the book did answer some questions, and I'm noting that the number of queries I'm going to make decrease significantly when compared to the last thread. Here they are:

- Let's remember the moment when Shallan hears about the return of Jasnah. At that point, Dalinar has refounded the Radiants, and new people with powers are popping up left & right. So when Adolin says You know what, she's back!, Shallan happily welcomes her princess. Huh? Really? How about giving that news a bit of doubt? She was the only 1 who witnessed Jasnah's death with her own eyes (and hands). She knows that she belongs to a group of Radiants who can create images. She's seen persons with the same power (both Kaladin and Szeth can fly). Of all people, she is the 1 who has used fake personalities to do various missions. I couldn't believe how she reacts when I read that part.

- Speaking of her inconsistencies, Shallan in this book makes some stunning turn from the preceding ones. Where is her curiosity? 1 of the scenes I remember the most was when she jumped off the ship to be able to watch a santhid. Now she barely questions anything. OK I do know that in OB she's torn between 3+ personalities. But even when the true Shallan surfaces, I can hardly see traces of her inquisitive mind.

- In a chapter, Dalinar is touched a bit by Odium, and he crumples down immediately. He knows that the god has only used like 0.1% of his 'power'. And Odium himself says he's not used with interacting with humans again, i.e. he has tried his best to hold back. He doesn't have to do anything and the Stormfather is already whimpering in some corner of the world. Now fast forward to the final battle, and during the confrontation, when Dalinar blabbers some words, Odium suddenly loses, saying Oh no! and retreating with a godly tail between his legs like a beaten dog? WTF?

 

Well that's it for the questions. Now here are some of my personal thoughts on the book itself. I was surprised. A few times, a pleasant 1, such as when Dalinar faces resistance from other monarchs - unexpected for me but totally makes sense and great in retrospect. Others, not so much. The story feels incoherent and the climaxes lacking. It feels like somehow BS has changed from the man who wrote tWoK & WoR to this new man who wrote OB. And not for the better. Something has transmuted in him, not really in style, but maybe like in essence. Yes, OB is still 1 of the best novels out there, but when compared with its 2 predecessors, the book wanes.

I like the concept "grip" to describe how great a story is. And man, I was hooked by the 1st 2 books. I set a time before bed to read. And I can remember vividly how fascinating it was when I read to the part where Kaladin jumped down into the arena to help Adolin fight, so gripping that I ignored the phone reminder alarm and read into the night to at least finish the whole scene. And you know what? I can't remember any moment like that with OB. In fact, what's alarming is that I found myself drifting into sleep a few times when having the book at hands. What a sad revelation.

I don't really know where to point the finger to when trying to explain how or why OB slipped. It's quite hard TBH. So, what do you think of the book? Is it the best in the series? Better than 1 but worse than 1? Or definitely the worst of tSA until now? If so, what do you think is wrong with this last installment?

Edited January 16, 2020 by Long try

[Honorless]

Regarding Dalinar at the Battle of Thaylen City, Odium said he "Ascended" and Dalinar said that Odium "seemed small" so looks like whatever happened was quite significant. We talk about that here on the Shard a lot actually.

Yeah, I stayed up overnight reading Stormlight myself  

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Long try said:

She knows that she belongs to a group of Radiants who can create images. She's seen persons with the same power (both Kaladin and Szeth can fly). Of all people, she is the 1 who has used fake personalities to do various missions. I couldn't believe how she reacts when I read that part.

Shallan realizes when Jasnah makes her appearance that she did not actually see Jasnah's body during part of her escape.  Additionally Shallan is somewhat naive and this hypothetical impostor had Jasnah's manner and intelligence down cold in a way that would be extraordinarily difficult to fake.  Finally during their first meeting Jasnah references a conversation that they had in private quite some time ago.

5 hours ago, Long try said:

Speaking of her inconsistencies, Shallan in this book makes some stunning turn from the preceding ones. Where is her curiosity? 1 of the scenes I remember the most was when she jumped off the ship to be able to watch a santhid. Now she barely questions anything. OK I do know that in OB she's torn between 3+ personalities. But even when the true Shallan surfaces, I can hardly see traces of her inquisitive mind.

She is undergoing a period of depression and there is quite a bit of pressure on her.  Under those circumstances I think curiosity is one of the first things to go.

5 hours ago, Long try said:

- In a chapter, Dalinar is touched a bit by Odium, and he crumples down immediately. He knows that the god has only used like 0.1% of his 'power'. And Odium himself says he's not used with interacting with humans again, i.e. he has tried his best to hold back. He doesn't have to do anything and the Stormfather is already whimpering in some corner of the world. Now fast forward to the final battle, and during the confrontation, when Dalinar blabbers some words, Odium suddenly loses, saying Oh no! and retreating with a godly tail between his legs like a beaten dog? WTF?

Dalinar is ascending at that moment.  He is basically getting a massive power up on the spiritual level.  His soul is expanded.  Also it is not really like Odium was hitting him with less power.  The actual damage to Dalinar's mind came just from viewing him for a second or so.  It was less about power and more about how he approached that kind of information and the length of exposure.

5 hours ago, Long try said:

I can't remember any moment like that with OB.

You cannot' have my pain!  Dalinar going to fight an evil army with a book.  Lift being rescued by Szeth.  Elhokar trying to swear the oath.  Gavinor with his little Kholin doll(excuse me action figure)...

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Pathfinder]

So first and foremost, totally feel how you feel regarding the book. It didn't work for you, and that is fine. Just responding for informational purposes to some parts, and others just my own opinion/interpretation

 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

- Let's remember the moment when Shallan hears about the return of Jasnah. At that point, Dalinar has refounded the Radiants, and new people with powers are popping up left & right. So when Adolin says You know what, she's back!, Shallan happily welcomes her princess. Huh? Really? How about giving that news a bit of doubt? She was the only 1 who witnessed Jasnah's death with her own eyes (and hands). She knows that she belongs to a group of Radiants who can create images. She's seen persons with the same power (both Kaladin and Szeth can fly). Of all people, she is the 1 who has used fake personalities to do various missions. I couldn't believe how she reacts when I read that part.

Shallan did question Jasnah on her survival. Shallan asked her how Jasnah survived, and Jasnah said that well she is an elsecaller. Shallan replied with snark that oh of course that makes so much sense when she knows nothing of what elsecallers are capable of. Jasnah apologized, and then explained. 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

- Speaking of her inconsistencies, Shallan in this book makes some stunning turn from the preceding ones. Where is her curiosity? 1 of the scenes I remember the most was when she jumped off the ship to be able to watch a santhid. Now she barely questions anything. OK I do know that in OB she's torn between 3+ personalities. But even when the true Shallan surfaces, I can hardly see traces of her inquisitive mind.

In the beginning Shallan demonstrates her curiosity in the murder mystery, tracking the mysterious figure that duplicates murders. She maintains her curiosity in exploring her abilities (learning that she can tie an illusion to a gemstone, reducing the stormlight cost, and vastly increasing the illusions length of time). In Kholinar Shallan tests the corrupted spren by embarrassing herself and hurting herself to observe what the changed spren look like. She is curious about Sja-anat and attempts to make contact. For myself all those things maintain her curiosity. 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

- In a chapter, Dalinar is touched a bit by Odium, and he crumples down immediately. He knows that the god has only used like 0.1% of his 'power'. And Odium himself says he's not used with interacting with humans again, i.e. he has tried his best to hold back. He doesn't have to do anything and the Stormfather is already whimpering in some corner of the world. Now fast forward to the final battle, and during the confrontation, when Dalinar blabbers some words, Odium suddenly loses, saying Oh no! and retreating with a godly tail between his legs like a beaten dog? WTF?

As others have said, Odium is concerned that Dalinar is ascending which could mean Cultivation and Dalinar could jump Odium outnumbering him. 

7 hours ago, Long try said:

I don't really know where to point the finger to when trying to explain how or why OB slipped. It's quite hard TBH. So, what do you think of the book? Is it the best in the series? Better than 1 but worse than 1? Or definitely the worst of tSA until now? If so, what do you think is wrong with this last installment?

As on my own thoughts on Oathbringer. I enjoyed it. To me it had some wonderful scenes, and I cannot wait for book four!

[GoWibble]

7 hours ago, Long try said:

- In a chapter, Dalinar is touched a bit by Odium, and he crumples down immediately. He knows that the god has only used like 0.1% of his 'power'. And Odium himself says he's not used with interacting with humans again, i.e. he has tried his best to hold back. He doesn't have to do anything and the Stormfather is already whimpering in some corner of the world. Now fast forward to the final battle, and during the confrontation, when Dalinar blabbers some words, Odium suddenly loses, saying Oh no! and retreating with a godly tail between his legs like a beaten dog? WTF?

I that that Odium might have been scared of an Ascended Dalinar and Cultivation, especially if Dalinar had been using NB. (yes, this could very well kill Dalinar, but what is worth possibly getting Odium Gone.)

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, Long try said:

I don't really know where to point the finger to when trying to explain how or why OB slipped. It's quite hard TBH. So, what do you think of the book? Is it the best in the series? Better than 1 but worse than 1? Or definitely the worst of tSA until now? If so, what do you think is wrong with this last installment?

i've seen many different opinions expressed in this forum, and they were mixed. to my knowledge, there is no consensus on any SA book being better or worse than the other.

as for the other questions, they were answered in depth by other posters

[Long try]

Thank you guys. To quote from just 1:

12 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Additionally Shallan is somewhat naive and this hypothetical impostor had Jasnah's manner and intelligence down cold in a way that would be extraordinarily difficult to fake.

Yeah... I was focused on her initial reaction to Adolin's word. If I were in her position, I would try to immediately pry more info on how Adolin got to know it, and not eagerly run forward to the highly probably impostor. Instead I'd follow behind the prince, thinking of all the ways Jasnah can possibly survive and all the tests I can make when I see her while walking slowly to buy time. Of course, I'll keep my distance in the meeting, too.

13 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Dalinar is ascending at that moment.  He is basically getting a massive power up on the spiritual level.  His soul is expanded.  Also it is not really like Odium was hitting him with less power.  The actual damage to Dalinar's mind came just from viewing him for a second or so.  It was less about power and more about how he approached that kind of information and the length of exposure.

2 problems. 1, it's true that Dalinar powers up. But this gain is about 9000 times, which is unimaginable even in a Dragon ballZ world. If I not wrong, then this kind of power up is just like in Kal or Szeth's order, where after you say some words you unlock some gradual thing. The bridgeboi & assassINwhite didn't expand their strength like crazy after those words, but only a marginal bit.

2, if the damage to Dalinar can be explained by viewing Odium's inner self (emotions?) for 1 second then during his ascension the god just have to let the highking view him for 2 second more. Guaranteed death. Or let's do it in 9 second for some dramatic overkill. By the time he finishes shouting Oh no! and treading back step by step, easily 14 seconds would have passed. Idiot Odium.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Long try said:

If I not wrong, then this kind of power up is just like in Kal or Szeth's order, where after you say some words you unlock some gradual thing.

No.  He is basically attaining a limited form of godhood.  He can see into the spiritual realm and understand the fundamental truths of the universe.

5 minutes ago, Long try said:

if the damage to Dalinar can be explained by viewing Odium's inner self (emotions?)

The platonic ideal of pure unrelenting hatred.

5 minutes ago, Long try said:

for 1 second then during his ascension the god just have to let the highking view him for 2 second more. Guaranteed death

1.  Odium did not want to kill him.  He was trying to injure Dalinar spiritually and break his will.  He might for example be giving him half second bursts to wear him down but let him recover just enough to stay on his feet. 

2. Regardless even if you can see all the hatred and pain you have ever felt or caused Dalinar proves that if you are willing to learn from it you can grow from the experience and become a better person.

3.  Time is a bit iffy here this is all taking place inside Dalinar's head.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Ookla the Prolific

[Kramerfarve]

10 hours ago, Long try said:

2, if the damage to Dalinar can be explained by viewing Odium's inner self (emotions?) for 1 second then during his ascension the god just have to let the highking view him for 2 second more. Guaranteed death. Or let's do it in 9 second for some dramatic overkill. By the time he finishes shouting Oh no! and treading back step by step, easily 14 seconds would have passed. Idiot Odium.

Still, though, you kind of have to understand Odium’s mindset in this stuff too, while he is a god of absolute hatred for everything around him, and goes out of his way to attack and kill other shards, he is a coward. He saw one of his victims nearly rise from the grave in front of him, after splintering the guy in the new and improved method that should not have allowed for such a thing. Seeing this would surely rattle him, as his plans all require a way to permanently sever a shard from the physical realm.

[+robardin]

First things first - I suggest you take a few weeks away from Oathbringer, then give it a re-read. Somewhere here I posted how disappointed I was at first, and how disjointed I found it, but my enjoyment of Oathbringer has increased with every re-read. Maybe that's because I can skim the parts that bothered me and focus on the "good stuff", which would not invalidate the initial judgment of "it feels disjointed to me"; but it would also mean it's still a highly enjoyable book, and there is no doubt it's chock-full of stuff that is critical to following the wider Sanderson Cosmere saga to its fullest.

I won't go into details lest I alter your reaction one way or another, but there are several scenes in Oathbringer that I ran through or ran past the first time without it sinking in, that on re-reading have become very powerful to me.

That said, I think you are being a little too incredulous in saying Shallan should have suspected Jasnah's miraculous return from death as possibly being another Lightweaver illusion type thing. Other than Szeth, Nobody had not yet seen any Surgebinding done by "enemies" yet - i.e., the Fused - and even at the end of OB even Dalinar cannot really conceive of a Radiant secretly working against them (despite the Skybreakers nearly all following Nalan, yes the Herald, in going over to Team Odium). So immediately considering Jasnah as a Lightweaver seeking to work against Dalinar is maybe asking a little too much.

On top of that, bear in mind that Lightweavers are not kandra. Shallan can fake identities that are generic (the disguises she slaps on Adolin, Kaladin, and Elhokar in Kholinar), an alternate strain of herself ("a confident, darkeyed version of me named Veil"), or very briefly to pose as someone specific (Amaram, when dismissing one of his staff)... But successfully posing as someone who is well known to Dalinar, Navani, and herself would be a completely different level of impersonation, one nobody on Roshar has ever seen. Use a Lightweaving to get close to Dalinar's inner circle? Yeah, maybe. Actually posing as his niece, and Navani's daughter, interacting with them for days and weeks on end? Inconceivable.

And then there's the fact that a Jasnah-as-Lightweaving-disguise would have require a constant supply of Stormlight to keep it going. Just being in someone's presence for a significantly extended period of time is likely enough proof that it's not a Lightweaving. (Shallan nearly gets caught herself a few times in Words of Radiance when her illusions die for lack of Stormlight.)

 

[Elegy]

I'm baffled that noone mentioned this yet: Odium and Dalinar both agreed to a battle of champions, and Odium proclaimed Dalinar his champion. Had Odium stayed, Dalinar could have forced him to keep the promise (because Shards have to) and just won by giving up. This is echoed by Odium in the Taravangian scene when he (if I recall correctly) says that he can't face Dalinar anymore. He would be challenged by Dalinar and lose. He had no choice but to get the storm out of there.

[+robardin]

23 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I'm baffled that noone mentioned this yet: Odium and Dalinar both agreed to a battle of champions, and Odium proclaimed Dalinar his champion. Had Odium stayed, Dalinar could have forced him to keep the promise (because Shards have to) and just won by giving up. This is echoed by Odium in the Taravangian scene when he (if I recall correctly) says that he can't face Dalinar anymore. He would be challenged by Dalinar and lose. He had no choice but to get the storm out of there.

Has he? Odium never actually throws that Pokeball and says, "Dalinar Kholin, I choose you!"

He has agreed to the contest of champions, which as Taravangian states (and Odium neither confirms nor denies), this means that if he meets again with Dalinar, who "as Bondsmith and bonded to the remnants of Honor" can make that deal, Dalinar can hold him to fulfilling it (i.e., to formally name a champion for a contest for the fate of Roshar)... That therefore implies that if he doesn't meet with Dalinar again, he can dodge it indefinitely, and can continue to fight the proxy war which the Desolations appear to represent.

If his putting Dalinar through the Nergaoul wringer counted as choosing him as his champion, then yeah, all Dalinar would have to do would be to surrender to himself.

If Dalinar had fallen to the Thrill Odium would have won by default, not by naming his champion but by Honor's champion surrendering to him immediately after making the deal. Odium didn't really have a Plan B, and why would he? Every one of his future visions - if what Renarin/Glys sees are the same - told him that if Dalinar reached this decision point in this place and time, he would surrender. He got blindsided by a Cultivation Time Bomb.

If Odium ever does meet face to face with Dalinar again, it will be because he HAS found a champion he thinks has a fighting chance against Dalinar. Maybe someone in his service who wields an Honorblade. You know who I mean.

That said, Dalinar never explicitly named himself as his own champion, either:

Quote

Dalinar licked his lips. "A test of champions," he said to Odium. "I demand that we clash over this world. ... A contest. Your freedom if you win, our lives if humans win."

"Be careful what you request, Dalinar Kholin. As Bondsmith, you can offer this deal. But is this truly what you wish of me?"

"I... Yes," Dalinar said, "This is what I wish."

"You wish a contest of champions?" Odium repeated. "This is your true desire, not forced upon you? You were not beguiled or tricked in any way?"

"A contest of champions. For the fate of Roshar."

"Very well," Odium said, then signed softly. "I agree."

And that's all. The only person named is Amaram, when Dalinar asks if that is who Odium will name, and Odium dismisses him as "hardly suited to the task."

"No, I need someone who dominates a battlefield like the sun dominates the sky... Someone stronger than Amaram, a man who will win no matter the cost. A man who has served me all his life. A man I trust. I believe I warned you that I knew you'd make the right decision. And now here we are... Take a deep breath, my friend, I'm afraid this will hurt," as the Thrill descends fully and solely upon Dalinar.

Obviously, Dalinar the Alethi Warlord imagines "A contest of champions" to mean ritual single combat, like Shardbearers in an arena. I suspect this "contest" could be twisted by Odium to mean a variety of things.

Edited January 17, 2020 by robardin

[Elegy]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

Has he? Odium never actually throws that Pokeball and says, "Dalinar Kholin, I choose you!"

He is pretty literal about it, although I don't know exactly know how binding this would be:

Quote

Odium (to Dalinar): "I have chosen my champion already. I've been preparing him for a long, long time. (...) A man who will win no matter the cost. A man who has served me all his life. A man I trust. I believe I warned you that I knew you'd make the right decision. And now here we are."

He never said it word by word, but his phrasing was unmistakable nonetheless.

Anyway, his champion was taken away from him, his plan had failed, and even if this wasn't binding, he still didn't want to risk a battle of champions without the weapon he prepared for decades beforehand - it's a reasonable explanation for his behavior either way. 

[Karger]

31 minutes ago, robardin said:

That therefore implies that if he doesn't meet with Dalinar again, he can dodge it indefinitely, and can continue to fight the proxy war which the Desolations appear to represent.

This is my interpretation.  There is considerable debate on this topic.  I hope we will learn the answer soon.  Maybe get an Azish legal team on this?

 

[Frustration]

22 hours ago, Long try said:

2, if the damage to Dalinar can be explained by viewing Odium's inner self (emotions?) for 1 second then during his ascension the god just have to let the highking view him for 2 second more. Guaranteed death. Or let's do it in 9 second for some dramatic overkill. By the time he finishes shouting Oh no! and treading back step by step, easily 14 seconds would have passed. Idiot Odium.

How would you feel if some guy was suddenly wielding the power of a guy that trapped you against your will and you killed some thousand years ago, you be flipping out about how that wouldn't be possible, also Odium didn't see that coming, from a dude that can see the future, the guy is watching his world crumble around him and he doesn't know what to do about it.

[Long try]

22 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

1.  Odium did not want to kill him.  He was trying to injure Dalinar spiritually and break his will.  He might for example be giving him half second bursts to wear him down but let him recover just enough to stay on his feet. 
3.  Time is a bit iffy here this is all taking place inside Dalinar's head.

1. The only reason to let Dalinar live is for the warrior to serve Odium. Everything Dalinar's done recently is to oppose the god's plan. With the ascension taking place in that very moment, there's no hope of using him anymore, so why not kill while you're at it?
3. That can be a huge change in POV. But how do you explain that all the Fused and Amaram and many others see the god, too?

12 hours ago, Kramerfarve said:

Still, though, you kind of have to understand Odium’s mindset in this stuff too, while he is a god of absolute hatred for everything around him, and goes out of his way to attack and kill other shards, he is a coward. He saw one of his victims nearly rise from the grave in front of him, after splintering the guy in the new and improved method that should not have allowed for such a thing. Seeing this would surely rattle him, as his plans all require a way to permanently sever a shard from the physical realm.

Yep, a coward Odium can explain a few things. So... killing Dalinar won't remove Honor's remnant, but turning him into O team can?

7 hours ago, robardin said:

On top of that, bear in mind that Lightweavers are not kandra. Shallan can fake identities that are generic (the disguises she slaps on Adolin, Kaladin, and Elhokar in Kholinar), an alternate strain of herself ("a confident, darkeyed version of me named Veil"), or very briefly to pose as someone specific (Amaram, when dismissing one of his staff)... But successfully posing as someone who is well known to Dalinar, Navani, and herself would be a completely different level of impersonation, one nobody on Roshar has ever seen. Use a Lightweaving to get close to Dalinar's inner circle? Yeah, maybe. Actually posing as his niece, and Navani's daughter, interacting with them for days and weeks on end? Inconceivable.

Er.. I don't know what a kandra is, but I kind of get your point. Well, you surely agree that all of Shallan's missions to date are short. That can be the case here. The impostor can use Jasnah's face to get close to Navani, for example, kill her and escape, all within 2 hours. If we're not the conspirators, we can't guess. What we can do is only to apply caution & protection.

21 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

How would you feel if some guy was suddenly wielding the power of a guy that trapped you against your will and you killed some thousand years ago, you be flipping out about how that wouldn't be possible, also Odium didn't see that coming, from a dude that can see the future, the guy is watching his world crumble around him and he doesn't know what to do about it.

Well, in that view then surely anyone could be scared. But isn't Odium still being imprisoned in 1 way or another? Some guy said just above that Dalinar is a demigod at that moment, so still way below Honor and without any experience of this power. Therefore the worst possibility is that you stay incarcerated, which is actually not worse at all; while the best is that you can take the chance and end the threat when it's still budding. BUT... anyway, "Idiot is a coward" can be used to explain just any case, so...

[Weltall]

6 minutes ago, Long try said:

1. The only reason to let Dalinar live is for the warrior to serve Odium. Everything Dalinar's done recently is to oppose the god's plan. With the ascension taking place in that very moment, there's no hope of using him anymore, so why not kill while you're at it?

Because Odium can't simply smite Dalinar. Shards are bound in various ways and while he could kill any Fused he wants to, he can't do it to any random Rosharan.

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just smite someone? Like, "Boom, you're dead," and they die?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Shards can do this, depending on where they are. For instance, Odium can't, but Endowment could.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

The 'where they are' is important here. Odium isn't actually on Roshar, insofar as his power is concentrated on Braize and he's not linked to the two worlds to the same degree. The situation where he briefly showed Dalinar his true nature was taking place in a vision which means he was partially in the Spiritual Realm at the time. This isn't the same set of circumstances as when Dalinar briefly Ascends at the end of the book, and at that point he's not vulnerable in the same way so it's a moot point.

Quote

Yep, a coward Odium can explain a few things. So... killing Dalinar won't remove Honor's remnant, but turning him into O team can?

We don't know what the original 'win' condition of the agreement that Honor and Odium created is for the latter, but it's implied very strongly that simply killing everything on Roshar wouldn't be enough and Odium would still be bound. What makes Dalinar really important is that due to his being a Bondsmith who's bonded to the Stormfather (who in turn merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow) which means he has the power to essentially let Odium off the hook if he releases him with the right Intent. Convincing or forcing him to say whatever needs to be said would probably be the easiest way to win. Failing that, winning a contest of champions would do it. In either case, turning Dalinar into an agent of Team Odium is a very smart idea either to get him to release Odium on his own, or to have him as Odium's Champion.