Did Shallan draw the herald Shalash?

[Sensai24]

I just came across this quote from Shallan..

"She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb.

A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know.

She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?”

Is she able to draw 'truths' even though she is un aware of them? So are the sailors alive? and is the woman with the chisel the herald 'Shalash' who I believe is the woman in the WoK interlude destroying art (of herself). If so, what does it mean for her powers?

[Argent]

This is the general consensus, I think. I am confident she is having a vision here, though how her Surges allow her to see distant lands (in what looks like the distant past) is beyond me. I originally thought that the woman was Jasnah, but that theory no longer makes any sense to me. So I am firmly in camp Shalash now.

[shadewolf]

not to derail this thread, is it just me or does each order of KR, have a hidden skill of sorts? Renarin can see the future, Shallan might be able to see into the past. I feel that kaladin might have something similar but I'm not sure, maybe being able to share stormlight, but I don't have enough proof that the ability is unique to his order.

[Quiver]

Honestly, it didn't occur to me that that wasn't a scene of Shallash smashing a statue. I don't know the context of it, but it just seemed to fit with the scene we saw in Way of Kings.

Though... I suppose it could be considered strange that Shallan doesn't mention the faces being similar. Shallash scratched out the painting of her at the feast, and I can't remember if she is destroying Herald artwork or things related to her specifically.

[cem]

not to derail this thread, is it just me or does each order of KR, have a hidden skill of sorts? Renarin can see the future, Shallan might be able to see into the past. I feel that kaladin might have something similar but I'm not sure, maybe being able to share stormlight, but I don't have enough proof that the ability is unique to his order.

Yes, I believe that each Surgebinder gets a bonus ability apart from their regular Surgebindings, Shards, and the benefits of Stormlight. Though I disagree with the examples you gave. For one thing, I'd say Renarin's precognition is his Surgebinding ability.

 

Shallan has Memory. The in-world Words of Radiance mentions that Lightweavers had mnemonic abilities, so other Lightweavers probably had abilities of similar nature. Though I wouldn't say she sees into the past. That ability seems much more complex than that to me.

 

And Kaladin has spider-sense. Notice how often he claims to feel as if being guided by the wind, especially while fighting to protect, even going so far as to think he could fight two Shardbearers while his eyes were closed at the duel scene. Syl all but admitted his spear fighting abilities are because of their bond.

Edited March 18, 2014 by cem

[Shardlet]

We have seen Shallan previously drawing a scene which she did not apparently personally witness.  In WoK in Karbranth when she was sketching while letting her mind wander she drew a picture of a man lying (facedown?) in a pool of blood.  We had previously believed that it was a picture of her father's death but we know now that that was not the case since she strangled and poisoned her father (i.e., no blood).

[Argent]

We have seen Shallan previously drawing a scene which she did not apparently personally witness.  In WoK in Karbranth when she was sketching while letting her mind wander she drew a picture of a man lying (facedown?) in a pool of blood.  We had previously believed that it was a picture of her father's death but we know now that that was not the case since she strangled and poisoned her father (i.e., no blood).

 

Um... her mother's (boy)friend then?

[Glaring at the Survivor]

One would asume that Shallan killed him with the Shardblade as well.

So probably, yeah... maybe?

[Zenith]

We have seen Shallan previously drawing a scene which she did not apparently personally witness.  In WoK in Karbranth when she was sketching while letting her mind wander she drew a picture of a man lying (facedown?) in a pool of blood.  We had previously believed that it was a picture of her father's death but we know now that that was not the case since she strangled and poisoned her father (i.e., no blood).

 

 

Um... her mother's (boy)friend then?

I think her mother's friend was a girl, though I could be wrong. It's also possible this is Helaran, as Kaladin killed him with a spearhead, not a shardblade or anything...

[Aleksiel]

It was a guy and Shallan's father lost a fight between them. Then Shallan's mother approached her, Shal killed her with the blade.

 

 

She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father. Mother calling Shallan one of them.

Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan.

And then . . .

And then a sword in Shallan’s hands.

“He let everyone believe that he’d killed her,” Shallan whispered. “That he’d murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me.”

Edited March 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Argent]

Red carpet. Once white. Her mother’s friend lay on the floor, bleeding from the arm, though that wound hadn’t killed him. Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold. Red hair spilled out in a pattern around the head.

Shallan knelt and rolled over her mother’s corpse, confronting a skull with burned-out eyes.

 

Shallan's mom's friend was male. 

 

Here's the quick recap of the scene:

 

She remembered it now. Her mother’s arrival, with a friend Shallan didn’t recognize, to confront her father. Her mother’s shouts, arguing with her father.

Mother calling Shallan one of them.

Her father barging in. Mother’s friend with a knife, the two struggling, the friend getting cut in the arm. Blood spilled on the carpet. The friend had won that fight, eventually holding Father down, pinned on the ground. Mother took the knife and came for Shallan.

 

 

[Zenith]

 

 

 

Shallan's mom's friend was male. 

 

Here's the quick recap of the scene:

 

 

 

Ah yes, thank you! For whatever reason I had pinned the friend as female....

[Chrono]

The picture actually fits Shallan killing her father better, though. It describes a dining hall, with a half eaten meal on the table. And there actually was blood. Nan Balat managed to graze Lin Davar with his sword, though it did not kill him. There was enough blood, though, to theoretically pool around him, especially once he died.

[nightwatcher]

Yes, I believe that each Surgebinder gets a bonus ability apart from their regular Surgebindings, Shards, and the benefits of Stormlight. Though I disagree with the examples you gave. For one thing, I'd say Renarin's precognition is his Surgebinding ability.

 

I'd have to disagree with you on that point.

 

As far as I can tell, the surgebinding abilities of the order truthwatchers are progression (healing), and illumination (illusion). No where on the list of surges is precognition.

I believe what Renarin is doing is actually closer to Teravangian's diagram, a form of mathematically oriented precognition separate from his surgebinding abilities.

Similarly, Shallan's is is some form of mnemonic ability, though the details of how it works is beyond me. I say this because it seems to include two aspects- her eugenic memory (take a moment to notice how she has no perfect memories from before the time Pattern came to her), and some form of Retrocognition.

Kaladin's ability is essentially watered-down Atium. Fairly simple, and a common theme in brandon's writing.

 

My question is, what is Jasnah's ability? the other KRs haven't developed enough to be accurately predicted (although I may be missing something), but Jasnah is a different story. Any Ideas on what her super-special-bonus-power could (possibly) be?

[Seloun]

I have a crazy theory that Yalb is a Herald based on those drawings. I can't really see a connection between Shallan and Shalash (besides perhaps the Order-Herald relationship), so the only major attribute we know of is that Shalash is a Herald. Maybe Shallan draws Heralds when daydreaming.

 

As far as I know she never repeats this in WoR (I spend a fair bit of time looking for an instance) though I haven't investigated WoK in detail.

 

My question is, what is Jasnah's ability? the other KRs haven't developed enough to be accurately predicted (although I may be missing something), but Jasnah is a different story. Any Ideas on what her super-special-bonus-power could (possibly) be?

 

My current working theory is that Jasnah's ability is either navigation or perfect geolocation. She knows exactly which direction to go in the Epilogue, and she's very familiar with the streets in Kharbranth. It's fit pretty well with an 'Elsecaller' to know something about traveling, I think.

[Kurkistan]

My current working theory is that Jasnah's ability is either navigation or perfect geolocation. She knows exactly which direction to go in the Epilogue, and she's very familiar with the streets in Kharbranth. It's fit pretty well with an 'Elsecaller' to know something about traveling, I think.

 

Interesting idea.

[thejopen27]

I just think that one of the abilities of Lightweaving is some kind of foresight or the ability to see things in the past.  It explains why Ranarin can see, Truthwatchers are probably better at the third eye part of lightweaving than Lightweavers because nothing about growth or regrowth would explain Ranarin's visions.

[Sphinx]

We have seen Shallan previously drawing a scene which she did not apparently personally witness.  In WoK in Karbranth when she was sketching while letting her mind wander she drew a picture of a man lying (facedown?) in a pool of blood.  We had previously believed that it was a picture of her father's death but we know now that that was not the case since she strangled and poisoned her father (i.e., no blood).

 

Judging by Shallan's reactions, I think it's probable that this was her father's death. In addition to his stab wound from Nan Balat, there may also have been her step-mother's blood and Nan Balat's bloody mangled leg contributing to the "pool."

 

 

 

I just think that one of the abilities of Lightweaving is some kind of foresight or the ability to see things in the past.  It explains why Ranarin can see, Truthwatchers are probably better at the third eye part of lightweaving than Lightweavers because nothing about growth or regrowth would explain Ranarin's visions.

 

I think it may be worth noting that the surge that allows regrowth is called "Progression" which does seem to have connotations for the future, and you seem to be conflating "Lightweaving" the Order, with "Illumination" the surge Lightweavers and Truthwatchers share. This may seem nitpicky, but I actually think it's important to distinguish between the surges and the orders, because there's some suggestion that compounding surges is very significant to what the order can actually do.

 

My guess would be that Renarin's ability to see/predict the future (Truthwatching) is in fact a combination of both Progression and Illumination, similar to how Shallan's ability to influence people (Lightweaving) is a power of both"Transformation" and "Illumination."  The "Illumintation" part in particular may allow her to inadvertently shed light on, or see, things that are happening in the present/past, while Progression would push this abillity into the future as well.

 

 

Edited to add: I just saw the following quote in the Word of Brandon thread from the Lexington Signing:

Q: Did the mistress from the interlude in book 1 destroy the Shalash statue on the night of Gavilar's death?

A: Yes, and also all the other ones that we've seen, including the one in Shallan's vision in Words of Radiance.

It seems likely that Shallan's vision of the mistress = Shallan's drawing of the woman with the chisel, as I can't think of anything else it would be, so this WoB would seem to confirm the question in the title (assuming you subscribe to mistress = Shalash)

Edited March 19, 2014 by Sphinx

[Numb]

I just think that one of the abilities of Lightweaving is some kind of foresight or the ability to see things in the past.  It explains why Ranarin can see, Truthwatchers are probably better at the third eye part of lightweaving than Lightweavers because nothing about growth or regrowth would explain Ranarin's visions.

 

Shallan's memory could be more than just something physical as in a part of her is able to retain information in the cognitive realm. Why I suggest this is that maybe while her body is unconscious she is still able to remember her surroundings through these drawings. So far we haven't really seen anything to suggest that she has some kind of foresight as most of these events seem to always be depictions of prior memories she chooses not to remember.

 

I'm also not sure if Renarin truly has precognition or if he does what kind of precognition it is. Precognition is always such a tricky thing to do. One of the major problems I have is that Renarin actively altered the future. If he didn't draw the countdown would it still have happened the way it did? If his foresight included him doing that countdown then why didn't it include them surviving? At the end he seems to truly believe that he has seen there deaths which suggests that he didn't see the future in which he did a countdown but even then did his countdown alter the future enough to invalidate what he saw? Something just feels off about it being precognition. 

 

I don't know if any of you guys are anime watchers but the anime Kara no Kyoukai - Mirai Fukuin actually deals with an interesting type of foresight in that it is more the ability to gather vast amounts of information and predict potential outcomes based on that(Rather bad explanation). This theory fits in pretty well with the mathematical number crunching Renarin and why he believed they were going to die.