Analysis of Knights Radiant Graph

[Seloun]

This is referring to the 'Front Endsheet' diagram that shows the relationship between the KR Orders and the surges.

 

We know that:

 

1) The diagram represents the 10 orders (through the large glyphs), and that the order's heralds are in the boundaries radially associated with their sponsored order. The color of the Order glyph corresponds to the color associated with the Order and the gem associated with the Herald.

 

2) The Surges are represented by the smaller glyphs, and have an edge to two adjacent Surges as well as an edge to the two Orders that use that Surge.

 

Observations:

 

1) All of the Orders have at least 3 edges connecting to other Orders. The Order graph exhibits point symmetry around the center. The 3 common set of Order edges are 2 edges to Orders sharing a Surge and 1 edge to the point-symmetric opposite Order.

 

2) 4 Orders have 4 edges instead of 3. These are the Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers and Stonewards. These 'extra' edges are plane-symmetric relative to the horizontal line (the axis parallel to the double-eye's long axis), i.e. Windrunners <=> Edgedancers, Lightweavers <=> Stonewards.

 

3) Note that this means all of the Orders have a connection across the horizontal axes; for the 4 Orders outside of the 'box' it's one of their adjacent-Order edges, while for Bondsmiths and Truthcallers it's their point-symmetry edge.

 

4) All of the Heralds above the line are male. All of the Heralds below the line are female (I also have a meta-theory on this relationship for the modern Radiant archetype character).

 

Hypotheses:

 

1) The vertical axis is the Honor-Cultivation axis. The Orders closest to Honor are Stonewards and Windrunners, and the Surges closest to Honor are Adhesion and Tension. The Orders closest to Cultivation are Lightweavers and Edgedancers, and the Surges closest to Cultivation are Progression and Illumination.

 

2) The horizontal axis is the Cognitive-Physical axis. The Orders closest to the Cognitive are Willshapers and Elsecallers, and Transportation is the Surge closest to the Cognitive. The Orders closest to the Physical are Skybreakers and Releasers, and Division is the Surge closest to the Physical.

 

3) The Heralds are/were associated with Honor and Cultivation as appropriate based on their position on the chart. The genders are not coincidental but related to their Shard association.

 

4) The point-symmetry edge is indicative of the relationship of the associated Order's spren (e.g. Windrunner <=> Lightweaver).

 

5) There's some connection between the Orders horizontal symmetry edge still not explored.

 

I'm assuming that this related picture might be the Voidbinding equivalent, but I'm not sure if there's been any information about that diagram (anyone know?).

[Carcinios]

I think it has already been confirmed that the second diagram is Cultivation linked though I am not sure where. It would certainly fit the female figures around the edge.

[Takeshi]

I like the idea of the placement of the orders signifying to what degree to each Shard they are acclimated to.  I think Honor is partly about forging bonds, which is why Adhesion and Tension are the closest to Honor.  Growth would also fit as the closest to Cultivation (not sure how Illumination fits).  This may also signify how strict each group of Order-spren are; the closer to Honor, the more strict the oaths.

 

 

Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.

 

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute observation!

Edited March 17, 2014 by Takeshi

[Tempus]

I was formulating a theory exactly along these lines, and I agree with everything you've said. And you said some things I hadn't thought of, specifically heraldic gender. Likewise, it was my thought that the vertical axis corresponded also with the rigidity of the oaths.

 

Regarding the second chart, I had not heard it was cultivation related. I assumed it was Odium related due to:

 • It's violet. Odium is all about dem purps.

 • It has dark storm clouds. Cultivation seems to be against the highstorms - Shinovar is protected, and it's fauna distinct from highstorm fauna. Odium, however, is directly related to the everstorm.

 • It has a big gemstone in the middle. So far, shinovar does not meet the gemstone heavy criteria. If Old Magic is cultivation related, no gemstones have been shown in collusion with it. Odium, however, has voidspren in gemstones all over the book.

 

I was also wondering about the designs in the backgrounds. The KR diagram has some sort of two dragons rampant fighting image, though they appear slightly insect or chull-like. The VB chart has progressively coloured damsels, meteors in the corners, progressively brightening stormclouds, a giant gemstone, and what appears to be stylized stormlight extruding from it. Also notable are the alternate shapes of the interior VB orders.

 

Interestingly, Sanderson has stated there are 30 magic systems in play on Roshar, or three times ten. One is confirmed as the 10 Knights Radiant orders. One is confirmed as 10 categories of Fabrials. If the last one is for the void bringers/parshendi, then where does the old magic fit? If the Parshendi/Voidbringers "don't count", then how do we divide old magic up into ten parts?

[Seloun]

I think it has already been confirmed that the second diagram is Cultivation linked though I am not sure where. It would certainly fit the female figures around the edge.

 

Well, the borders of the second diagram is shared with the Shademar map, much like the map of Roshar is shared with the KR/Surgebinding diagram (though in both cases the frame is upside down). If it's been confirmed somewhere the second diagram is related to Cultivation, it'd be interesting to know.

[PorridgeBrick]

I was formulating a theory exactly along these lines, and I agree with everything you've said. And you said some things I hadn't thought of, specifically heraldic gender. Likewise, it was my thought that the vertical axis corresponded also with the rigidity of the oaths.

 

Regarding the second chart, I had not heard it was cultivation related. I assumed it was Odium related due to:

 • It's violet. Odium is all about dem purps.

 • It has dark storm clouds. Cultivation seems to be against the highstorms - Shinovar is protected, and it's fauna distinct from highstorm fauna. Odium, however, is directly related to the everstorm.

 • It has a big gemstone in the middle. So far, shinovar does not meet the gemstone heavy criteria. If Old Magic is cultivation related, no gemstones have been shown in collusion with it. Odium, however, has voidspren in gemstones all over the book.

 

I was also wondering about the designs in the backgrounds. The KR diagram has some sort of two dragons rampant fighting image, though they appear slightly insect or chull-like. The VB chart has progressively coloured damsels, meteors in the corners, progressively brightening stormclouds, a giant gemstone, and what appears to be stylized stormlight extruding from it. Also notable are the alternate shapes of the interior VB orders.

 

Interestingly, Sanderson has stated there are 30 magic systems in play on Roshar, or three times ten. One is confirmed as the 10 Knights Radiant orders. One is confirmed as 10 categories of Fabrials. If the last one is for the void bringers/parshendi, then where does the old magic fit? If the Parshendi/Voidbringers "don't count", then how do we divide old magic up into ten parts?

 

[shamelessplug]Why not both? If Surgebinding is both Honor and Cultivation, why can't Voidbinding be of Cultivation and Odium?[/shamelessplug] Oh, and we don't actually know that one is confirmed as the 10 categories of fabrials. The WoB just says fabrials are a part of it– and the Ars Arcanum only says that there "must be some other magic even more esoteric and unknown" than Surge/Voidbinding (paraphrased). Something as well known as fabrials doesn't fit that, unfortunately, though I thought so too before seeing that quote.

I don't think the Old Magic is one of the three, however. I'm pretty sure it's just the Nightwatcher using her magical oomph to screw around with everything and grant strange boons and curses.

[Stormcrown]

The old magic has to be one of two things.

 

From a shard that was on Roshar before the current 3, or one of the three shards (cultivation) was on Roshar before the other 2.

 

Thats the only thing I can imagine.

 

I believe that Brandon said the shards are not native to Roshar. Someone correct me on that?

[thejopen27]

How do you explain Taln's order the Stonewards.  They seem to not fit the pattern of physical on the right, or the warriors/asskickers (Windrunners, Edgedancers, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers) and the more cognitive, scholarly/mystical orders on the left (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Willshapers)

 

Talenel is described as the ultimate soldier and he is the herald of war.  Now admittedly we don't know much about what either of the surges associated with the Stonewards do, but we know that it was said somewhere that of all the orders the one that most fit their heraldic patron was the Stonewards.

 

Is it possible Taln functioned more as a type of general and his those of his order were tacticians and used their powers to inspire and rally soldiers?

Edited March 17, 2014 by thejopen27

[Ren]

What's up with the ugly-spider-dragon thing in the background?

[dnavre]

How do you explain Taln's order the Stonewards.  They seem to not fit the pattern of physical on the right, or the warriors/asskickers (Windrunners, Edgedancers, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers) and the more cognitive, scholarly/mystical orders on the left (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Willshapers)

 

Talenel is described as the ultimate soldier and he is the herald of war.  Now admittedly we don't know much about what either of the surges associated with the Stonewards do, but we know that it was said somewhere that of all the orders the one that most fit their heraldic patron was the Stonewards.

 

Is it possible Taln functioned more as a type of general and his those of his order were tacticians and used their powers to inspire and rally soldiers?

 

I doubt that his was just a commanding and "management" role. The fact that he usually chose impossible tasks for himself and often died while successfully completing them in my opinion speaks of the fact that he was directly involved in the battle. Also his physical condition/abilities leave much to desire for ordinary mortals. Remember the way he caught darts from the air?

P.S.

my first post here!

[WeiryWriter]

I think it has already been confirmed that the second diagram is Cultivation linked though I am not sure where. It would certainly fit the female figures around the edge.

 

To my knowledge Brandon has not commented on the second chart.  He certainly hasn't said it is related to Cultivation.

 

The old magic has to be one of two things.

 

From a shard that was on Roshar before the current 3, or one of the three shards (cultivation) was on Roshar before the other 2.

 

Thats the only thing I can imagine.

 

I believe that Brandon said the shards are not native to Roshar. Someone correct me on that?

 

Honor and Cultivation arrived together on Roshar, Odium came later.  They are the only three shards to have existed on Roshar, unless one counts Adolnalsium.

 

Brandon has said the Shards are not native to Roshar, understandable since they did not originate there.

[Seloun]

How do you explain Taln's order the Stonewards.  They seem to not fit the pattern of physical on the right, or the warriors/asskickers (Windrunners, Edgedancers, Skybreakers, and Dustbringers) and the more cognitive, scholarly/mystical orders on the left (Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Willshapers)

 

Talenel is described as the ultimate soldier and he is the herald of war.  Now admittedly we don't know much about what either of the surges associated with the Stonewards do, but we know that it was said somewhere that of all the orders the one that most fit their heraldic patron was the Stonewards.

 

Is it possible Taln functioned more as a type of general and his those of his order were tacticians and used their powers to inspire and rally soldiers?

 

Well, according to the epigraph of WoR describing Stonewards:

 

 

they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error.

 

which makes me think that their main 'attribute' is being strong-willed. They have a strong soldierly component, yes, but their main focus is 'never give up, never surrender'. That said, I'll concede Stonewards don't fit the pattern very strongly, at least given what's known about them so far.

[Ryshadium]

New

 

Well, according to the epigraph of WoR describing Stonewards:

 

 

which makes me think that their main 'attribute' is being strong-willed. They have a strong soldierly component, yes, but their main focus is 'never give up, never surrender'. That said, I'll concede Stonewards don't fit the pattern very strongly, at least given what's known about them so far.

 

New Theory, the Stonewards are Thermians. 

[JustTee]

My personal theory:

 

If the Knight's Radiant chart is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, I think Voidbinders will be a mix of Odium + Cultivation. This would be 20 of the 30 magic systems that are present. The last 10 I believe would be a mix of Odium + Honor. Since Honor is dead, this magic system may be weaker or less present, and therefore, could be the "old magic". 

 

It might fit with the whole "Curse + Boon" and ignoring what you ask for, and instead giving you what you need (Honor?). 

[Aleksiel]

I just noticed the woman on the second chart (Voidbringers' one) has her safehand covered. Is that significant or just a detail Brandon had no control over?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Seloun]

My personal theory:

 

If the Knight's Radiant chart is a mix of Honor + Cultivation, I think Voidbinders will be a mix of Odium + Cultivation. This would be 20 of the 30 magic systems that are present. The last 10 I believe would be a mix of Odium + Honor. Since Honor is dead, this magic system may be weaker or less present, and therefore, could be the "old magic". 

 

It might fit with the whole "Curse + Boon" and ignoring what you ask for, and instead giving you what you need (Honor?). 

 

I was thinking the same thing regarding the 3x 10 magic systems. Based on the Ars Arcanum though I'm tentatively against thinking the Old Magic fits under that paradigm (it seems pretty unique). I wouldn't be surprised if (modern) fabrials were one of the systems, though; Odium/Honor might fit somehow given that modern fabrials appear to be powered by captured spren.

[Gyth]

I've spent some time staring at the map of Shadesmar (along with a few others), over the past few days, and something seemed to come together.

 

What if "violet" doesn't have anything to do with Odium specifically? I would lean more towards red, if anything.

 

What if purple actually has more to do with the Spren or, more fundamentally, the cognitive realm.

 

Maybe the Inverse Radiant Chart is really just the Sprens version of what we have done in the physical realm.

 

WoR does say the Almighty, Tanavast, was surprised at what the Spren had done to mimic what he had created with the heralds.

 

Maybe their chart came before the Radiants.

 

I'm not saying Cultivation couldn't have had her hands in that pie too.

[WitSpren]

Isn't there a newer - more developed Surge Graph that is out now?     I ran several searches, but can't find it here or one the Wiki link.     Could someone give me the link? 

[Moogle]

Isn't there a newer - more developed Surge Graph that is out now?     I ran several searches, but can't find it here or one the Wiki link.     Could someone give me the link? 

 

This one is the most correct one I know of. Teleportation should be Transportation, though.

 

Edited April 17, 2014 by Moogle

[WitSpren]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!        I have seen this before, but could not find it!

[Pathfinder]

I need to re-read more, and do some more research, but what if you fold the orders chart in half like a book? Then the dragons might look more like the head and jaw of a chasmfiend? This may be a stretch but in the books it has hinted that there is more going on with the chasmfiends especially due to the gemhearts and the spren that follow them. What if when you fold it that way, there are interactions or reasons the orders line up the way they do in THAT case? Windrunners and Stonewardens, Willshapers and Skybreakers, Elsecallers and Dustbringers, Lighterweavers and Edgedancers? My theory is very loose but anyone see any merit to it or could expand on it?

 

edit: oh oh! and that might also explain why there is a crystal in the other chart, it would be the "gemheart" of the chasmfiend. Again a stretch I know, but maybe there is something to it?

Edited April 23, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[hoser]

The creatures in the background are believed to be larkin/dragonwasps, which have abilities relating to stormlight.