[OB] Cusicesh, the 3rd Bondsmith Spren?

[The One Who Connects]

58 minutes ago, Zellyia said:

Possible that something happened to the bondsmith who was tied to the Sibling?  If a bondsmith abandoned his/her oath, wouldn't it "kill" or at least badly affect the spren bonded to it?

The Sibling would then be tied to Melishi, and there's a possible issue, which Calderis summed up quite well:

Quote

We actually don't know which spren was bonded at the time. All we know of at the time is that Melishi was the only Bondsmith.
According to the gem archive, the Sibling was already receding prior to the Recreance, which leads me to believe that it was not the one to which Melishi was bonded.
We also have Pattern saying that the the Stormfather survived the Recreance. Survive implies to me that he was effected by it.

I side with Calderis here in thinking that the Stormfather was bonded during the Recreance. If this is true, then this accusation by the Stormfather would be directed at humans in general, which leads to some interesting possibilities.

[Ishar]

So, personally I doubt this theory. I haven't taken the time to read through what everyone else has said other than the first few replies, so if anybody already mentioned this I apologize for repeating it. So far, the 2 spren who we know are the Siblings are the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, who are the most powerful spren of Cultivation and Honor. Naturally, this would lead us to believe that the third spren is of Odium. If I had to guess this third sibling is not one of the unmade, although it is possible, in which case I would guess that the third bondsmith is in fact Aesudan who bonded with one of the unmade. I don't think that the third sibling is one of the 9 unmade because the unmade don't seem quite as powerful as the Nightwatcher and Stormfather, and I think it is probably a spren we have never seen before. If I had to guess Cusicesh is probably around the same level of the unmade.

[RShara]

I'm wondering if someone refused to bond with the Sibling, so it was retreating due to not having a bondmate to help keep it sapient.

[Zelly]

A different tack then: 

36 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

The Sibling would then be tied to Melishi, and there's a possible issue, which Calderis summed up quite well:

I side with Calderis here in thinking that the Stormfather was bonded during the Recreance. If this is true, then this accusation by the Stormfather would be directed at humans in general, which leads to some interesting possibilities.

A different tack then:

The Sibling is more a mindless force than an individual like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.  The old radiants know that something is going wrong with the Sibling, but at a loss as to what.  If neither they nor their spren are able to suggest what is happening, it suggests that basic communication with the Sibling is limited. 

[Ashspren]

2 hours ago, Ishar said:

Naturally, this would lead us to believe that the third spren is of Odium.

 

2 hours ago, Zellyia said:

The Sibling is more a mindless force than an individual like the Stormfather and Nightwatcher.

What if the Sibling was the Thrill? It is of Odium, and a "mindless" (I'm putting mindless in parentheses because we don't know how cognitive the Thrill actually is) force. Instead of being bonded to one person, it inhabits many people, trying to get them to make decisions to help Odium.

[Bigmikey357]

3 hours ago, Ishar said:

So, personally I doubt this theory. I haven't taken the time to read through what everyone else has said other than the first few replies, so if anybody already mentioned this I apologize for repeating it. So far, the 2 spren who we know are the Siblings are the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, who are the most powerful spren of Cultivation and Honor. Naturally, this would lead us to believe that the third spren is of Odium. If I had to guess this third sibling is not one of the unmade, although it is possible, in which case I would guess that the third bondsmith is in fact Aesudan who bonded with one of the unmade. I don't think that the third sibling is one of the 9 unmade because the unmade don't seem quite as powerful as the Nightwatcher and Stormfather, and I think it is probably a spren we have never seen before. If I had to guess Cusicesh is probably around the same level of the unmade.

I disagree that the Sibling is of Odium despite him being the 3rd Shard in-system for a couple reasons. One, it doesn't seem like Odium to have invested a Spren avatar which grants its bondmate a power with the potential to bind him. This is the same Shard that refuses to take up the power of shards he shattered so as not to be influenced by another's Intent. Two, Odium's investiture is different. His magic number is 9 instead of 10. His 'heralds' aka the Unmade, do not have 2 separate powers but only the 1. His Fused, the main advasaries of the Knights Radient, only have one Surge, not 2, and those surges are not powered by Stormlight. How could a Bondsmith of the KR bond a spren that grants powers that fall outside the Order? I think it's much more plausible that the Sibling got a Honor/Cultivation blend as suggested by an earlier post on this thread.

As to which of the Siblings was bonded to Melishi, I believe it makes the most sense for it to be the yet unnamed one (not Stormfather or Nightwatcher). Nothing I've seen so far makes me think otherwise, though of course nothing is definitive yet. If that 3rd Sibling ran Urithiru then that's not consistent with it being Cusicesh. Guess we must keep searching.

[CrazyRioter]

I suspect that if the Stormfather is entirely of Honor and the Nightwatcher is entirely of Cultivation than the Sibling was made from both.

[Ishar]

I still think it is more logical that if the stormfather is entirely of honor and the Nightwatcher of cultivation that the sibling would be of Odium

[The One Who Connects]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

How could a Bondsmith of the KR bond a spren that grants powers that fall outside the Order?

Ask Renarin. Or the minor spren and the Seons. Or Kelsier, for that matter. There are things we just don't know enough about yet, and the limits of the bond is one of them.

That said, I agree with you that the Sibling being of Odium is unlikely, but it's not something we can wholly dismiss yet.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As to which of the Siblings was bonded to Melishi, I believe it makes the most sense for it to be the yet unnamed one (not Stormfather or Nightwatcher). Nothing I've seen so far makes me think otherwise, though of course nothing is definitive yet. If that 3rd Sibling ran Urithiru then that's not consistent with it being Cusicesh. Guess we must keep searching.

So I had a thought while reading this paragraph. One of the Bondsmiths was in perpetual residence at Urithiru. At first, I'd thought it was simply to keep the peace at home, but that was before the Fabrial revelation. If the 3rd Sibling was both a Bondsmith Spren and ran the Urithiru Fabrial, then it'd make sense for their bondmate to always be nearby, yes?

We imagine that Melishi left Urithiru with the strike team, heading to the Shattered Plains to capture Bo-Ado-Mishram. KR are limited by distance from their Spren in order to use their powers. (We know Dalinar isn't, but I don't think that's a standard Bondsmith Perk.) If this is the case, then we have two options: 1) Melishi was not Bonded to the 3rd Sibling, or 2) The 3rd Sibling is not the Spren tied to the Urithiru Fabrial, and thus not limited in where it can go.

Also, the Sibling is noted to have "withdrawn from men"(Zircon 1). If a Nahel Bonded Spren had withdrawn from men, I'd think that would involve breaking the bond, something that can be done. It is also noted shortly after(Zircon 3) that "our (the KR) perceived worthiness is a separate issue." This makes me think it's not related to the Spren Bond, but the "withdrawn" logic still holds. Both of these would lead us to the same two options as above, since Melishi needs to have a Bond to be a Bondsmith.

The follow-up to Option 1 is simple, and Melishi was bonded to either the Nightwatcher or the Stormfather.
The follow-up to Option 2 though, would mean that either the Stormfather was bonded to Urithiru, or it was a 4th Spren(both of which are unlikely.)

[Bigmikey357]

21 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

How could a Bondsmith of the KR bond a spren that grants powers that fall outside the Order?

Ask Renarin. Or the minor spren and the Seons. Or Kelsier, for that matter. There are things we just don't know enough about yet, and the limits of the bond is one of them

While I can agree that we don't know the limits of the KR bond quite yet, I disagree with using Renarin as an example. He is obviously a special case, a KR with a corrupt spren. We have seen him having issues with his Illumination surge and the future sight falls outside of the traditional Truthwatcher power set.  Unless you're proposing that Each of the Bondsmiths get granted different powers based on which Sibling they bond I really can't see an Odium spren being an integral part of an organization established specifically to fight him and his minions. As for your other examples, wiggy things are likely happening in their magic systems but that's not Roshar. Brandon has surpised me before so I can't absolutely rule it out, it's just my opinion at this point.

On your second point, we know the Unmade have a local effect, but do Bondsmith Spren? They do grant their users Spritual Adhesion and distance is irrelevant when dealing with Sprit stuff.

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Bigmikey357 said:

I disagree with using Renarin as an example. He is obviously a special case,

He is, but he did "bond a spren that grants powers that fall outside the order" as you put it, so I included him to show that such a thing was possible, special case or no.

9 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

On your second point, we know the Unmade have a local effect, but do Bondsmith Spren? They do grant their users Spritual Adhesion and distance is irrelevant when dealing with Sprit stuff.

Normal Spren have to stay close to their KR for them to access their powers. We only know that the Stormfather is not similarly limited, and that's due to Honor.

Quote

Questioner
Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson
Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

I don't think the Nightwatcher or the Sibling have absorbed a Cognitive Shadow of a Shard, or gained the connections that such an action would give them. So yes, I think Dalinar is a special case in his ability to conjure magic anywhere.

[Calderis]

Yes, Bondsmiths were normally range limited. The Stormfather's merger with Tanavast's Shadow increased his connection to many things and seems to have negated the issue. 

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

source

Edit: and The One Who Ninjas strikes again

Edited March 27, 2018 by Calderis

[Xtafa]

I've always wondered if the Time it appears is related to this 

 

https://www.sunsigns.org/angel-number-746-meaning/

[Bigmikey357]

Let's try something a bit different. Ok so we know from the gem archive and other sources that the Sibling powered Urithiru and that it was withdrawing pre-Recreance. From that we can postulate that Melishi was not bonded to the Sibling at the time the Radients abandoned their Oaths and Spren. We also know that there is a hierarchy of Spren. Stormfather/Nightwatcher, as avatar of their respective Shard, are at the top of the hierarchy; Cusicesh is a step below them, at least a step above higher Spren like Pattern, Syl, Ivory and Windle ect. It's obvious to me that Cusicesh didn't power Urithiru so they have to be 2 different beings.

Now this is where the crazy theorizing comes in. Where there are two Mega Spren, Cusicesh and the Sibling, there may be others. The Spren of Stone in Shinovar comes to mind as an example. And that brings to mind that maybe a Bondsmith has more options as to who they can bond other than the SF/NW/SIB trio. 3 is the upper limit for Bondsmith services at one time but that doesn't preclude there being no other options. I offer this quote:

“But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

What that quote means to me is it were not seen as sedition, they could expand their Order, swell its ranks. If only the trio were eligible to become a Bondsmith Spren then it would be impossible to grow larger no matter how it was seen. That means there are other options available. Cusicesh could be the 3rd Bondsmith Spren, the one Melishi was bonded to at the time of the Recreance (Probably isn't. Calderis has the WOB quoted earlier in the post, but it may have been a Bondsmith Spren in past times). 

This theory hinges on another theory involving the nature of Mega Spren. I believe that the difference between our normal Nahel Spren and Mega Spren like SF and others is, to put it simply, Investiture. When a normal spren comes to the Physical Realm they lose much of their sapience unless, like Windle, them and their people take precautions. They are pieces of a God, but small pieces unable to withstand the transition from thought to matter. Mega Spren have more investiture so they can transition into the Physical and maintain much of their sapience with no need to be bonded. Nightwatcher, confirmed to be a Bondsmith Spren, can think and she has no one holding a bond with her. Stormfather had no bond with SF until the end of WOR. He was fully sapient in the Physical Realm. The Sibling and others might not retain as much sapience as those two but I think they can interact without a bond and not be completely stupid. And that to me means Cusicesh, the outlier, was probably broken by a Radiant. 

[DSC01]

On 3/26/2018 at 10:55 PM, Ashspren said:

 

What if the Sibling was the Thrill? It is of Odium, and a "mindless" (I'm putting mindless in parentheses because we don't know how cognitive the Thrill actually is) force. Instead of being bonded to one person, it inhabits many people, trying to get them to make decisions to help Odium.

Nergaoul is responsible for the Thrill. 

[Ashspren]

1 minute ago, DSC01 said:

Nergaoul is responsible for the Thrill. 

Agh, sorry. I read Oathbringer a few months before posting that, so I didn't remember. I just reread it recently, and you're right. 

[Scion of the Mists]

On 6/25/2018 at 7:13 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Stormfather/Nightwatcher, as avatar of their respective Shard, are at the top of the hierarchy; Cusicesh is a step below them, at least a step above higher Spren like Pattern, Syl, Ivory and Windle ect. It's obvious to me that Cusicesh didn't power Urithiru so they have to be 2 different beings.

Now this is where the crazy theorizing comes in. Where there are two Mega Spren, Cusicesh and the Sibling, there may be others.

I always assumed that the Sibling was at the same level as the Stormfather/Nightwatcher, a step above Cusicesh.  

[ScavellTane]

Possibly nonsense thought..

Do we know whether the 'Made' and the 3 radiant god-sprens are on the same spectrum? If they are, shouldn't there be a total of 16 major spren considering they would predate the Shattering and would be of Adonalsium? Or did the number 16 only came into significance after the Shattering?

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I always assumed that the Sibling was at the same level as the Stormfather/Nightwatcher, a step above Cusicesh.  

I believe the most heavily invested spren in system is Stormfather. He's the largest splinter of Honor, plus now he gets the boost from bonding. Nightwatcher is next; Cultivation isn't splintered and she isn't bonded so she doesn't have quite as much investiture as Stormfather. Yet she remains Cultivation's avatar and is thus special. The direct conduits of their respective Shards, nothing can be higher in the Hierarchy than those two. The only way the Sibling could be in the same weight class as them would be if the Sibling was Odium's creature, which I find unlikely. Barring that occurrence, the Sibling must therefore be installed in the next tier in the hierarchy with Cusicesh and any other Mega Spren revealed to us readers at a later date.

[Draigon]

It has been confirmed in world by the Stormfather that there are 3 "god spren" and that the third is the Sibling. How exactly the Sibling relates to Honor and Cultivation is certainly up for debate, but the Sibling's power level is at the level of the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

I Have always felt the 3rd god spren was a mixture of Cultivation and Honor! I think the story of the Moon and the queen is a clue to this . I have read the theories that say each moon is a God . The green diety being cultivation and the blue diety being Honor. So what would happen if they had a child to lack a better term . Could that child be the queen that traded places for a day .? Did she give birth to the type 2 Aimians ? So many questions ?

[Ashspren]

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I Have always felt the 3rd god spren was a mixture of Cultivation and Honor! I think the story of the Moon and the queen is a clue to this . I have read the theories that say each moon is a God .

There is another theory about Nomon, one of the three moons, being the Sibling. Link here.

 

3 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

The green diety being cultivation and the blue diety being Honor. So what would happen if they had a child to lack a better term . Could that child be the queen that traded places for a day .? Did she give birth to the type 2 Aimians ? So many questions ?

 

It is actually possible for Vessels of Shards to have children, as we know from a WoB.

Quote

Dragon13

Is it possible for a Shard or Shardholder [Vessel] to reproduce, other than by creating Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

Additionally, we know that Honor and Cultivation were lovers...

Quote

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

 

Of course, a followup question to the first WoB asking if we've seen any offspring of two Vessels was RAFO-ed, but if it possible for them to reproduce, then it is likely that there are, even if we haven't seen or met them yet. 

[Lightspine]

Hey guys, I have a bit of an alternate theory about the Sibling. (maybe I should turn this into a full thread?)

The Eila Stele mentions *three* gods (or types of gods) before the arrival of humans: spren, stone, and wind. I don't think they necessarily meant three shards, but rather three very large spren. We know that the Stormfather almost certainly existed in those times - especially because the Listeners accuse him of abandoning them for the humans. The Nightwatcher may or may not be this ancient, but the name of the "Old Magic" suggests to me that she is. Obviously, we can associate the Stormfather with wind, but the Nightwatcher is a bit iffy. However, I find it much more likely she would represent "spren" than "stone." That leaves the last "god" - stone, who I propose is the Sibling.

There are other reasons why this would make sense to me. For one, the Sibling's slumber is part of the reason why Urithiru is not fully functional (there's a WoB), so it would make sense to me if the Sibling were somehow dwelling in the stone of Urithiru. This could also explain why the Shin consider Urithiru the only stones that aren't cursed - their tradition against stone seems to stem from the original pact that humans made not to spread out of Shinovar (another WoB), but if Urithiru were created by one of their "gods" to house humans, they would consider it less profane to walk there. In addition, we know (from the discussion above) that Bondsmiths must stay within a certain range of their spren (with exception of the Stormfather). The Nightwatcher lives in the Valley, which appears to be in the same mountain range as Urithiru. The Sibling, therefore, is likely also nearby, and being in the rock of Urithiru itself would probably be a good thing.

(Edit because I forgot to add this) This theory might also explain what the Stormfather means by "hurt them" since Dalinar and company have been up to a lot of shenanigans in Urithiru.

In this theory, of course, the Sibling is a mixture of Cultivation and Honor, created before the arrival of Odium. I also don't have anything to add about why the Sibling is slumbering.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Lightspine

[Scion of the Mists]

17 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I believe the most heavily invested spren in system is Stormfather. He's the largest splinter of Honor, plus now he gets the boost from bonding. Nightwatcher is next; Cultivation isn't splintered and she isn't bonded so she doesn't have quite as much investiture as Stormfather. Yet she remains Cultivation's avatar and is thus special. The direct conduits of their respective Shards, nothing can be higher in the Hierarchy than those two. The only way the Sibling could be in the same weight class as them would be if the Sibling was Odium's creature, which I find unlikely. Barring that occurrence, the Sibling must therefore be installed in the next tier in the hierarchy with Cusicesh and any other Mega Spren revealed to us readers at a later date.

Good point about the Stormfather merging with the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast.  I always forget about that.  I still would group all 3 together, just like Brandon does.  I personally lean toward the Sibling being a mixture of Honor and Cultivation, as was mentioned by other posters.  

 

19 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Possibly nonsense thought..

Do we know whether the 'Made' and the 3 radiant god-sprens are on the same spectrum? If they are, shouldn't there be a total of 16 major spren considering they would predate the Shattering and would be of Adonalsium? Or did the number 16 only came into significance after the Shattering?

The Unmade are splinters of Odium, so they likely would not have predated the shattering/arrival of the Shards.  (Although it's really hard to say because we really have no idea where they came from.  

As far as numerology goes, Roshar's number is actually 10.  

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

source

 

[ScavellTane]

Here's the thing... There are 10 gas giants + 3 planets + 3 moons = 16.

I would think that Roshar became 10-centric only after Honor and Cultivation arrived. Before that, it would have been Adonalsium's 16.

 

Mad theory, follow me here..

There were 16 major spren on Roshar before the Shattering. 

When Odium came to Roshar proper, he corrupted 9 of them and used them basically to sow chaos.

yada yada yada...

then Honor and Cultivation altered 3 for the Bondsmith/Radiants. 

if my theory is correct, there would still be 4 unknown major spren which may include Cusicesh.

Edited June 28, 2018 by ScavellTane