Missing Honorblade

[Lightflame]

On Page 912 of Words of Radiance (my brother has the book so I can't give an exact quote until he gives it back), Taravangian says, "One of the Honorblades has been taken." Szeth replies, "Another one of the seven?" (Taravangian is lying though.)

 

Let's do some super easy math. The Shin have the Honorblades. There were 10 Honorblades. Taln never relinquished his blade, so the Shin would only have 9 Honorblades. They gave one of the 9 to Szeth, to make him Truthless. That should leave 8 Honorblades. But Szeth says that the Shin only have 7 Honorblades.

 

One of the Honorblades is unaccounted for. Where is it? Was there another Truthless? (Unlikely, because Szeth said in The Way of Kings that the Stone Shamans would be able to get his Honorblade back if he died.) Or did someone take it? And if so, who has the unaccounted for Honorblade?

 

(It would be really interesting if Helaran's blade was the missing Honorblade.)

[synobal]

10 blades, 1 was still with Taln, 1 was with Szeth, 1 with Nalan (darkness who gave Szeth Nightblood at the end of WoR) and seven in Shinovar. That is all 10 accounted for I think.

Edited March 11, 2014 by synobal

[Lightflame]

I thought Nalan had a Shardblade? I'm probably mistaken, though.

[The Count]

Agreed, The Lift interlude indicates that Nalan was surgebinding (or al least infusing).

 

This implied that he was in possession of his Honorblade.

 

7 for the Shin

1 for Szeth

1 for Taln

1 for Nalan (Darkness)

[Arook]

What did he do in the lift interlude that indicates he is surge-binding. 

 

Even if its not him with the blade we have WoB that one herald retrieved his blade. 

 

One thought so if i remember correctly

Dalinar bonds with the blade Taln had when Wit dropped him off at the war camp. If that is true there is a fair chance that wit has an honor blade because Dalinar's blade screams when he becomes a bond-smith. Sylphrena clearly states that honor blades don't have spren in them and don't scream.

 

[Jimmy moon]

I don't think Dalinar has an Honorblade, because it screams when he drops it, as Arook said. Also, he threatened Amaram with his Blade, and neither Kaladin nor Amaram acted as if the blade was anything special. With Amaram's obsession with the Heralds, you'd think he would recognize an Honorblade. But that's not to say that he didn't recognize it and just cover up his surprise really well.

 

Also, do we know who Nalan was talking to in the prologue? My guess is that he was talking to some servant of Jezrien, because he says Szeth has "my lord's own Blade." Szeth is a Windrunner and Jezrien was said to be head of the Windrunners. 

 

Another question I think is important is: How did Szeth get his Blade? Did he steal it, and that's why he's Truthless? Was he given it after becoming Truthless? If so, is every Truthless given an Honorblade? Why? there's so much more still to find out

[Numb]

Szeth says the stone shamans will come collect his blade when he dies. It implies that they know he has it and aren't in any rush to retrieve which suggests that he didn't steal it. 

[Shardlet]

The blade Dalinar had was described as a giant cleaver, whereas Taln's blade was described as being long and thin resembling a giant spike.  Dalinar was not using Taln's blade.

 

By all appearances, Szeth was given his blade by the shamans.  Especially since he indicated that they would retrieve it upon his death.  Ooh, we should be seeing an "envoy" from Shinovar in the next book then.

[Jaconis]

What did he do in the lift interlude that indicates he is surge-binding.

Even if its not him with the blade we have WoB that one herald retrieved his blade.

Lift notices Darkness moving faster than he should be able to and comes to the conclusion that he was "awesome" too, meaning infused with Stormlight in non-Liftese. Since we know the Heralds were only surgebinders because of the Honorblades, it is assumed (rightly, IMO) that Nalan has his Honorblade.

[Aoibheann]

Weren't we told somewhere that Elhokar had an honorblade?

[shinintendo]

Wasn't there a rumor that Wit switch Talenel’Elin's honorblade for a shardblade and that's what Dalinar bond with?

[Gamma Fiend]

WoB has said one of the Heralds went back for their blades.

So 10 Honorblades. -1 for Taln still having his, then -1 for the one who took theirs back. And since Nalan was going around Surgebinding, that makes him the guaranteed suspect.
That leaves 8 Honorblades, and Szeth has 1, so that would indeed leave 7 Honorblades in the possession of the Shin.

And then we are pretty sure Hoid stole Taln's blade at one point after he returned and dropped it, and switched it out with the regular Shardblade Dalinar bonded.

[Musica]

I don't think Dalinar has an Honorblade, because it screams when he drops it, as Arook said. Also, he threatened Amaram with his Blade, and neither Kaladin nor Amaram acted as if the blade was anything special. With Amaram's obsession with the Heralds, you'd think he would recognize an Honorblade. But that's not to say that he didn't recognize it and just cover up his surprise really well.

 

Also, do we know who Nalan was talking to in the prologue? My guess is that he was talking to some servant of Jezrien, because he says Szeth has "my lord's own Blade." Szeth is a Windrunner and Jezrien was said to be head of the Windrunners. 

 

Another question I think is important is: How did Szeth get his Blade? Did he steal it, and that's why he's Truthless? Was he given it after becoming Truthless? If so, is every Truthless given an Honorblade? Why? there's so much more still to find out

 

Szeth was made Truthless for raising a (supposedly) false alarm about the return of Surgebinders and Voidbringers. It was strongly implied that the stone shamans gave him that Honorblade.

My question is what does it actually mean to be Truthless? What would make a person believe he has to obey every command, no matter how awful, or face worse consequences then simply dying?

[Releaser]

"We don't know they will come," Eshonai said to Resolve. "we don't know any of this. Who knows if men even have Surgebindings - it might be one of the Honorblades. We left one in Alethkar that night."

P.204 WoR US Hardback

 

This line made me wonder. Were they talking about Szeth, did they give him the Honorblade the Listeners had? Were they even talking about Szeth.

 

What if Nin went back and got his after Szeth left Shinovar. Knowing the Desolations were returning he had to buff up and go get his old job back. 

[Vortaan]

Szeth was made Truthless for raising a (supposedly) false alarm about the return of Surgebinders and Voidbringers. It was strongly implied that the stone shamans gave him that Honorblade.

My question is what does it actually mean to be Truthless? What would make a person believe he has to obey every command, no matter how awful, or face worse consequences then simply dying?

 

Follow up question: how does sending a trained killer like Szeth loose on the world with an Honorblade serve any kind of useful purpose in the whole "Nah, Desolations aren't a thing, man. Whatevs" plan? So if he's right, you've pretty much guaranteed he's coming back for vengeance. Makes me wonder if being Truthless involves training with -all- the Honorblades... but where would they get the Stormlight?

[Arook]

Lift notices Darkness moving faster than he should be able to and comes to the conclusion that he was "awesome" too, meaning infused with Stormlight in non-Liftese. Since we know the Heralds were only surgebinders because of the Honorblades, it is assumed (rightly, IMO) that Nalan has his Honorblade.

 

But remember Taln moves and grabs those darts superhuman speed so being really fast may not be a good indicator. Heck we don't know that heralds can't use storm light on there own and only need the blades for when they wish to use the surges.

 

The best indicator that maybe darkness has access to surges is the interlude were we have the cobbler that heals orphans, but that could have just been him coming out of the shadows.

[Musica]

Follow up question: how does sending a trained killer like Szeth loose on the world with an Honorblade serve any kind of useful purpose in the whole "Nah, Desolations aren't a thing, man. Whatevs" plan? So if he's right, you've pretty much guaranteed he's coming back for vengeance. Makes me wonder if being Truthless involves training with -all- the Honorblades... but where would they get the Stormlight?

 

Yeah, that's been bothering me, too. What's the point of the whole thing? it can't be only a means for deterring people from warning against the return of the Voidbringers....but if they wanted to make someone train with Honorblade\s, there are far easier and healthier ways to go about it then what Szeth's been through. or maybe the punishment has been so rough because he was already chosen to wield a Blade? I mean, after being cast from Shin, where would he lear to fight so well, especially since it's not like he wanted to be an efficient kiler, so can't really see him walking around training himself to fight better...

 

about the Stormlight- while there might not be Highstorms in Shin, they are regular in the rest of Roshar, so I don't think getting infused spheres would be all that much of a problem.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Dreamer

[Aleksiel]

A Herald went back and took his/her Blade according to WoB.

 

However, I'm not convinced that was Nalan. True, Lift called him awesome and he did infuse himself with some stormlight, but he did not surgebind to get to her or to Ym for that matter. He hasn't manifested surgebinding abilities. There could be another explanation to his ability like a bond of some sort; KR like Windrunners had squires who were not surgebinders. I'm not saying Nalan is someone's squire only that there might be another explanation to him consuming stormlight.

 

Again, Nalan didn't surgebind, so he might not be in possession of his Honorblade.

 

I'll make a wild guess and pick Chana as a likely candidate here. Her attribute is obedience. So, she disobeys Honor once and follows Jezrien's lead to break the Oathpact; then she changes her mind and disobeys the disobedience by getting her Blade back. I like this if only for the lol factor.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Aleksiel

[RShara]

Lift interlude:

 

 

She glanced down the hallway. She could swear he was glowing faintly, and he was certainly running too quickly

So either Lift is mistaken, or Darkness is surgebinding.  Of course, if he's surgebinding, that doesn't mean he has his honorblade, since he could possibly surgebind by himself.

 

We also have a WoB that Hoid did not switch the blades (Taln's Honorblade/Dalinar's blade).  Doesn't mean he didn't take it, of course

[Aleksiel]

Lift interlude:

 

So either Lift is mistaken, or Darkness is surgebinding.  Of course, if he's surgebinding, that doesn't mean he has his honorblade, since he could possibly surgebind by himself.

 

Squires are not surgebinders, but use stormlight nonetheless and enhanced speed is not a surge.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Glaring at the Survivor]

Another question I think is important is: How did Szeth get his Blade? Did he steal it, and that's why he's Truthless? Was he given it after becoming Truthless? If so, is every Truthless given an Honorblade? Why? there's so much more still to find out

Szeth said that Surgebinders and Voidbinders were returning. Stone shamans, and perhaps other Shin, thought he was lying. I can imagine a scornful remark "If you think the Surgebinders are returning, lead them! Take Jezerezeh's Honorblade, and lead as he did!"

I also assume the Shin were charged by someone with protecting the Honorblades (reminds me of a certain instance on Nalthis (WB world, right?) ) and they take it very seriously. And other... stuff...

[Zizoz]

I suspect Taln is still bonded to his Honorblade. As far as I know you can't force someone to unbond a blade. And it would mean that Hoid didn't technically switch the blades, if he only provided a decoy blade and didn't take Taln's.

 

The gravitation surge, which Nalan's blade provides, could be used to move more quickly than normal.

[Shaggai]

Szeth was made Truthless for raising a (supposedly) false alarm about the return of Surgebinders and Voidbringers. It was strongly implied that the stone shamans gave him that Honorblade.

My question is what does it actually mean to be Truthless? What would make a person believe he has to obey every command, no matter how awful, or face worse consequences then simply dying?

I assume being Truthless is the ultimate punishment: not just execution, but damnation. Being Truthless almost guarantees that you'll have to kill people, walk on stone, and use Stormlight.

As for the specific nature of being Truthless: We know you have to follow the orders of whoever has your Oathstone. How Truthless are kept in line is another thing. Szeth would have done what he was supposed to anyway, because of his dedication to the laws of his people, but surely there have been (or could have been) other Truthless who weren't as dedicated. It's not some sort of Stone Shaman mind control, because Szeth says that "he could have stopped the killing at any time". Perhaps there's some sort of bond with the Oathstone? Some form of oath, the phrasing of which says that you have to follow orders if you lie about Desolations, or some such. If you break the oath, you kill the spren of the stone, which would be a worse sin than killing a human. But if you were telling the truth, you haven't broken the oath and you don't have to follow orders. Give me a few minutes, I'll develop this further.

Edit: Okay, here goes.

Each Shin has an Oathstone. They form some sort of bond with the spren of the stone (hey, maybe the spren of the stones are highspren, and this bond is why Szeth becomes a Skybreaker at the end! Stone spren being highspren would also explain why they're worshiped as gods), for which the oath is something along the lines of "I will obey whoever holds the stone." The Shamen hold the stones for most Shin, and one of the orders they give is "Do not lie about Desolations." If you are perceived to have lied, you are declared Truthless, and cast out. You must obey whoever holds the stone, or do even more damage to your bond with the spren of the stone. If you disobey enough, you kill the spren, and are then guilty of murdering a god.

Edit2: Just found this:

Q: Szeth a lot of the time throughout Words of Radiance is referring to the fact that he's hearing his victims scream in his head. Is that actually his conscience screaming at him or has he possibly already bonded to a spren in some way, that is displeased with-

A: That is not the spren. Good question. It is not...the spren is not a spren that is a...for one of the orders.

Q: But it is related to--

A: I didn't say that. I just said it is not a--it is not a blade. It is not one of those.

So stone spren are not, in this theory, highspren. Disregard that. Stone spren are still gods, though, so the theory works. Especially since Brandon implies that Szeth is bonded to some sort of spren. Edited April 11, 2014 by Shaggai

[Wrath]

Theory I just came up with now: Jezrien gave his Honourblade to Szeth and warned him that a Desolation was coming. There's a WoB about how you can't bond an Honourblade, just be given one, and yet Szeth was bonded to his by every definition we have. And Szeth believing that he has met a Herald and been given a warning sounds like a good reason for the stone shamans to (falsely) declare him Truthless.

[Argent]

What makes you think that Szeth has met a Herald?