falconwolf91 Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 One is almost certainly a traitor to the others. Does this mean an order of radiants is traitor to the others? If so which one? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Does this mean an order of radiants is traitor to the others? If so which one? The Skybreakers would be a good start. It could mean that Nalan went back for his Honorblade and is a traitor to the rest of the Heralds. It could mean one of the Four Radiants is a traitor. Let's go with Shallan for the moment... It's a tricky epigraph, that's for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taveren Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 wasn't that quote near the chapters also talking about raidants of the past in the quotes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 The Skybreakers would be a good start. It could mean that Nalan went back for his Honorblade and is a traitor to the rest of the Heralds. It could mean one of the Four Radiants is a traitor. Let's go with Shallan for the moment... It's a tricky epigraph, that's for sure. Yeah, probably last... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Since it was from a quote in the "Words of Radiance" the in world book that is a history of the Radiants, I doubt that it means anything about the Four who have come together so far... It does seem to imply that one of the orders turned against the others. Skybreakers is tricky right now. I feel like the fact that they were mentioned so much in this book means that they are a red herring. Though the Parshmen/Parshendi being Voidbringers was true, I feel like the Skybreakers that Helaran joined "may" have something to do with Nalan and what he is offering Szeth, but I don't think they are going to actually be surgebinding "Radiants" who will probably make themselves known in Adolin... (hopefully). The only "skybreakers" we have seen thus far, were given the Blade and Plate (Helaran) or Nightblood (Szeth). If Heleran was an actual Skybreaker, Kaladin would have stood no chance, instead of the minuscule chance he did stand. I can't believe there are 3 more books this size with all that plot that we've got before the resolution of this plot arc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSelector Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 This quote can be taken many, many ways. My first thought was about the Second-to-Last Desolation, where nine Heralds survived incredibly fierce fighting and a very tenacious enemy. Brandon has confirmed that there is more going on beneath the surface of this event. Perhaps one of the Heralds was approached by Odium, and told that if the Heralds walk away, Odium will refrain from that whole Desolation thing. This idea infects the other Heralds - they convince the others to leave Talenel behind and walk away. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Could be Rlain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 * Isn't Rlain in Urithiru? What happens when the everstorm hits there? * Isn't Shinovar safer? No highstorm might mean no everstorm * Heralan was no skybreaker - no glyphs on his blade, no glyphs on his plate, killing indiscriminately - there was no justice there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyring Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Shinovar.. didnt think of that. Its not protected from the west. The Everstorm comes from the other direction. Will Shinovar feel the full force of a highstorm(everstorm) now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shash Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 * Isn't Rlain in Urithiru? What happens when the everstorm hits there? * Isn't Shinovar safer? No highstorm might mean no everstorm * Heralan was no skybreaker - no glyphs on his blade, no glyphs on his plate, killing indiscriminately - there was no justice there. The Everstorm travels the opposite direction of a highstorm...I think Shinovar is especially at risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAhlstrom Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Shinovar does have mountains on the west too. But I don't know how much shelter they'll give. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 The Skybreakers would be a good start. It could mean that Nalan went back for his Honorblade and is a traitor to the rest of the Heralds. It could mean one of the Four Radiants is a traitor. Let's go with Shallan for the moment... It's a tricky epigraph, that's for sure. Not sure if it's Nalan but there's 1 more honourblade being used. Szeth mentioned 7 being protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 * Isn't Rlain in Urithiru? What happens when the everstorm hits there? * Isn't Shinovar safer? No highstorm might mean no everstorm * Heralan was no skybreaker - no glyphs on his blade, no glyphs on his plate, killing indiscriminately - there was no justice there. Heralan was no skybreaker, agreed. But he went to join the "Skybreakers", and was given a Blade and Plate... "Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek the Skybreakers?"... Mraize talking to Shallan at the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 It depends whether the mountains are what really give Shinovar its defence against highstorms or whether that's just a convenient excuse and it is really something else. I call Cultivation having some kind of agreement with the Stormfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Not sure if it's Nalan but there's 1 more honourblade being used. Szeth mentioned 7 being protected. Brandon said one herald went back for his blade. Heralan was no skybreaker, agreed. But he went to join the "Skybreakers", and was given a Blade and Plate... "Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek the Skybreakers?"... Mraize talking to Shallan at the end Since people *are given* shards, it's hard to believe that they will bond spren. And since Nalan is killing surgebinders, it's hard to believe he would allow them to work with him. Hence, there is no real *Skybreaker*. Even more interesting when a highspren will bond I bet Nalan will be furious! Edited March 7, 2014 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Hence, there is no real *Skybreaker*. Even more interesting when a highspren will bond I bet Nalan will be furious! Agreed! I think the first real bonded Skybreaker's that we'll see will be either Adolin or Moash because of their pursuit of "Justice" over what is "right", with Adolin being in the lead since he is seeking justice and is VERY confident. Moash suffers a bout of insecurity after running from Kaladin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Moash will need to do some character growth before he becomes Radiant material. He is not exactly buying the First Ideal. At all. Adolin is much closer, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djerf Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 As I read the book I got the feeling that the quote referred to one of the unmade and looking at the epigraphs Tarion compiled for us it becomes almost certain that the epigraphs refer to one of the unmade, look. The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however. - From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 14 There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship. - From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 15 One is most certainly a traitor to the others - From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 27 It seems to me that the natural progression is that he once more spoke of the Unmade as this talk of betrayal does not pertains to the discussion on the nature of kingship. In anyway he wrote the diagram more than 500 day ago. “This was that day, that day of perfection.” “No,” Adrotagia said. “What?” “That was the time you were the most intelligent during the last five hundred days,” And likely even longer ago. Ah but they were left behind It is obvious from the nature of the bond But where where where Set off Obvious Realization like apricity They are with the Shin We must find one Can we make to use a Truthless Can we craft a weapon - From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first / spaces added by me This gives the feeling that mr T had a hand in creating Szeth. On another point, did he then also have a hand in the assassination of Gavilar? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Indirectly, almost certainly as I read that last epigram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 (edited) TL/DR: This is a red herring, the wording leaves the possibility that noone is a traitor to anybody ('Almost certain' doesn't mean 'is') and it is writtend by a human with human levels of intelligence. As brilliant as he may have been on that day, noone is perfect for some reason we are taking the words on the Diagram as absolute when they are infact written by a human and thus have the chance to be flawed. In fact I would say that it is downright impossible for parts of it not to be flawed or incorrect. mr T specifically asked for the capacity to save humanity not the ability to. i.e things he learns while smart don't necessarily have to be correct they are are still subject to human bias and the misinterpertation of information. I think that the traitor the Diagram is referring to is not one of the current four Radiants. I think it is referring to one of the heralds, at this point I am thinking perhaps Darkness(Nalan?) is the traitor. Brandon did say that one of the heralds returned for their blade (and the fact that the Shin only have 7 of the 10 and only 2 of the missing are accounted for, Taln's and Jezrien's). I am thinking that this herald broke not only the oathpact but also their oath to the other heralds to leave their blade. Since Darkness does in fact have a shardblade/honorblade. We can't rule out that he went back for his blade. I think this would quantify "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others". I think the wording of this statement also leaves a good deal of abiguity. I think that this passage is the only one worded with any kind of uncertainty (correct me if i am wrong please). "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others", the use of "...almost certainly..." makes me think that this is somewhat of a red herring in terms our predictions. Since it means that there is a distinct chance that none of 'them' is a traitor to the 'others', and that the writer of the Diagram (mr T right?) recognises and can't discount this possibilty. I think we can't either. Ultimately I think we simply don't have enough information to go on about this, but as of now I am almost certain that this is some kind of red herring. The only current Radiant that is hinted could be a traitor is Shallan because of the ghostbloods, but Its been made pretty clear that she abhorrs their methods. You know, since the whole they tried to kill Shallan thing and killed an innocent bystander in the process. Shallan has too many issues about killing people, and though she may be fine with deciet she most certainly NOT fine with killing people who are not actively trying to kill her. I think it will be impossible for Shallan to ever kill someone in cold blood (she killed her father to protect her family, in the absolute direct sense.) Not to mention that Pattern describes the Ghostbloods as 'circling' near the end of the book when making Shallan confront another Truth. Not very encouraging words. Should she stray down the path of the Ghostbloods I think she will come into conflict with the first ideal (Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination), I think the Ghostbloods and similar groups are far too focused on the destination (saving humanity... do the ghostbloods even want this?) and don't care for the journey (methods by which we achieve our goals) similar to Kaladin's conflict in this book over Elhokar's assasination. She won't risk losing Pattern I think. I personally think that she is talking about her mother when she says "I hate you.". When i read through it It seemed rather obvious that this was the case and that Pattern was misinterperting her again (he DOES do that a lot). She is very specifically looking at the illusion of her mother when she says that line and isn't internally thinking about Pattern at all. Shallan even says that she doesn't want revenge, of course she wouldn't, not only is her mother already dead I think she wouldn't want to kill Pattern intentionally. Edited March 8, 2014 by Paradox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Actually, I am not convinced this epigraph is referring to one of the Radiants. It is part of the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer, of which we have two other excerpts - both of which talk about the Unmade (though Paragraph 15 tries to steer the theme back to kingship). I expect that the epigraph before Chapter 86 also refers to them. An Unmade who could betray its fellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Shash Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 @Argent Could Moelach be the traitor? Most of the Unmade seem to be mindless which means they won't be over concerned with anything that's going in Roshar. Moelach, who isn't mindless, though how sentient he is is unclear, also happens to be gifted with precognition. Perhaps Moelach saw something in the future that worried him, and the Death Rattles are actually his attempt to communicate with humankind. I don't think Odium plans to destroy Roshar and make it a Spren paradise; Moelach may very well be protecting his own self interest against the future Odium intends to bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It's possible - and its power does seem both harmless and useful. Compare it to the Thrill, which while not directly harmful, is certainly odious. Still, it's a very flimsy claim, and I am not ready to embrace its specificity - we know of only of the Unmade, and we have maybe seen the names of another two from The Way of Kings. That's not enough for me, but I'll keep the idea in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 Brandon said one herald went back for his blade. where was this mentioned?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted March 9, 2014 Report Share Posted March 9, 2014 I think Moelach might actually be another name for Yelignar, who was described as one who could speak like a man, "though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed". Certainly seems like a reasonable enough mythological description. Also, apparently Moelach was on the move, and Yelignar is called Blightwind and there's a plague in the Purelake, so it seems plausible he was there when the Everstorm began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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