Theory: Odium Has To Be Fair

[Moogle]

 

The place of meeting was in the shadow of a large rock formation, a spire rising into the sky. As always, the ten of them had decided upon it before the battle. The survivors would make their way here. Oddly, only one of the others was waiting for him. Jezrien. Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious.

 

 

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

 

 

“I ask myself this same thing. How could we let this occur? The Desolations are well named. I’ve heard initial counts. Eleven years of war, and nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead. Do we even have kingdoms to lead any longer? Sur is gone, I’m sure of it. Tarma, Eiliz, they won’t likely survive. Too many of their people have fallen.”

 

 

“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.”

 

 

“The Knights Radiant,” the Almighty said, standing up beside Dalinar, watching the knight attack the nightmare beast. “They were a solution, a way to offset the destruction of the Desolations. Ten orders of knights, founded with the purpose of helping men fight, then rebuild.”

 

Overview

This theory is simple: Odium was bound by the Oathpact to not use more power than his enemy (Honor) was able to muster. Honor's forces were Surgebinders and Heralds. Because of this, if Darkness kills off all the Surgebinders, Honor's forces consist of exactly one Herald, and in a Desolation, he can only send one Unmade (or equivalent) to attack people - hardly a Desolation. Because of this, Odium is likely going to be forced to wait until the ranks of Surgebinders replenish themselves.

 

The Radiants likely learned of this and broke their spren bonds, thus causing the Recreance.

 

The reason I suspect this is the case is because of two things: Darkness thinks Surgebinders will cause the Desolations to start up again, and only nine out of ten people died.

 

Ninety Percent Dead

When your army is overwhelmingly larger than your enemy that you tend to take no casualties when you fight them. If your enemy is half as large as you, you'll only lose 25% of your men taking them down. If your enemy is a quarter as large as you, you'll only lose 12.5% of your men and so on. (This overly simplifies matters and ignores things like chokepoints in terrain and relative skill/equipment, but it is true in a simplistic model of combat.)

 

So... when 9/10 of your people are dead (as was the case in Nohadon's time), you can assume that the armies were really evenly matched. Why would Odium bother fighting so evenly? In Nohadon's time, they were still suffering from a war caused by Alkavish, a Surgebinder. This weakened them considerably, but even so, Odium was incapable of winning.

 

The Desolations did not become easier with time, either, it seems. When the Radiants came about, it seems like the Desolations grew worse. Kalak remarks that the enemy is growing tenacious, and of course the Radiants are getting more and more experience and growing larger with every Desolation. This is the main support for the theory (though I admit it's a bit weak).

 

It is interesting to note here that the Almighty doesn't mention that the Radiants were a way to win against the Desolations. They're there to help humanity rebuild. The Radiants powers are really not suited to combat, anyways - they seem very well suited to rebuilding. Gravity to lift big stones and make buildings, Soulcasting to make materials and food, Transportation to bring refugees to the rest of civilization, and Growth to help farmers start up their fields again. Division is the only really combat-oriented Surge, and that could be used for mining stone and the like. I'm not sure how to fit Friction/Pressure in here.

 

Darkness Is Killing Surgebinders

As further support, the Heralds might have learned of this. Ishar may have believed it, thus his remarks that "there [was] a chance [they] might end the cycle of Desolations". Ten Heralds is quite the fighting force for Honor. One Herald, Taln, is much less powerful, which means Odium can't send much of a fighting force against them. So, if the Heralds quit, they might end the Desolations!

 

If Darkness (assuming he's Nalan) believed Ishar's reasoning, he might very well dedicate his life to killing Surgebinders so as to prevent a Desolation from coming about.

 

The Heralds might have believed initially that they were responsible for the Desolations, and then later on realized that the Surgebinders were responsible, hence why Darkness didn't immediately start killing Radiants. How they would have learned of this theory is hard to say - maybe Odium himself told them?

 

---

 

Anyways, the theory is pretty simple. It has quite a few issues - notably, why would the spren bother to bond with humans again? I can only conclude that it might be some sort of silly journey before destination thing, and so the spren didn't care about the Desolations - they just wanted to bond with humans, like the Seons of Elantris desired to bond. There's also the Heralds believing they Desolations might stop while the Radiants were still around, but that might be incomplete information on their part which Darkness has since figured out.

 

If anyone has other issues to bring up or comments, please bring them up!

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Gloom]

I believe that this may be the reason for Darknesses actions, but I don't believe that the Everstorm is just another desolation. I believe that there was a reason that Odium expended the power necessary to kill Honor. I believe that there is a reason that Odium has waited so very long between desolation's. In short, I believe that Odium has found a loop hole and that humanity will need every surgebinder they can get their little hands on, every fabrial that can be created, and every pointy stick they can sharpen.

[Swimmingly]

There's also the possibility that the spren don't know, or that their instincts compel those in the Physical to bond, after the transition from the Cognitive strips their memories. Perhaps they never had a true picture of the proceedings, and only saw the results of the "betrayal" when the KR abandoned their bonds.

[Moogle]

I believe that this may be the reason for Darknesses actions, but I don't believe that the Everstorm is just another desolation. I believe that there was a reason that Odium expended the power necessary to kill Honor. I believe that there is a reason that Odium has waited so very long between desolation's. In short, I believe that Odium has found a loop hole and that humanity will need every surgebinder they can get their little hands on, every fabrial that can be created, and every pointy stick they can sharpen.

 

Or perhaps the deal doesn't have to be strictly fair. Perhaps it just measures the number of Surgebinders alive and lets Odium have that many Voidbringers. Odium could have just been waiting for everyone to stop being united and the spren to return. I'm not sure what Gavilar did that could have caused them to return though.

 

I think this theory has a bit of merit in a "journey before destination" sort of way. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, as it just means the enemy grows stronger - so you may as well act honorably so you can be happy with your life and have a clear conscience.

[KiManiak]

Interesting theory.  It explains a decent amount in regards to the Herald’s actions, the Recreance and Darkness’s judgment.

 

One big problem for this theory (as I see it, anyway) is what “God” told Dalinar in his vision in Chapter 75 (In the Top Room).

 

 

I should have realized he’d come for me.

...

Do you wish to fight him?

...

Someone must lead them…Someone must protect them…Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore.  The Knights Radiant must stand again. 

...

Men must face them together…He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies.  That he doesn’t need to fight you…the truth is that we lost.  And we are losing.  

 

Way of Kings, Chapter 75, In The Top Room

 

If diminishing the Heralds and eliminating the Knights Radiant were the wiser course of action, why doesn’t “God” (assuming he is indeed Honor) feel sound more optimistic, or at least more pragmatic?  Why does He think that Rosharians are losing?  Why does He wish the Knights Radiant to stand again?

 

If Darkness’s plan is indeed the elimination of Surgebinders (with the hope that this will therefore minimize the impact of any Desolation), then why would “God” (again, assuming he is Honor) recommend that the exact opposite action be taken to prevent Rosharians from losing?

 

Something doesn’t fit, in my opinion.

[Moogle]

If diminishing the Heralds and eliminating the Knights Radiant were the wiser course of action, why doesn’t “God” (assuming he is indeed Honor) feel sound more optimistic, or at least more pragmatic?  Why does He think that Rosharians are losing?  Why does He wish the Knights Radiant to stand again?

 

You're proposing that the literal essence of Honor be pragmatic, here. I think that explains why he doesn't want to take the less honorable course of action that no one act honorable enough to attract spren.

 

Your point about him thinking they're losing is well-made, though. I wonder why they can lose over time? It really feels like a best-out-of-100 Desolation match.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

I really like your theory!

 

We can easily include Cultivation on such Oathpact - she given one curse and one boon to prevent Odium from doing anything.

 

 

You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain.

 

One Herald left means Odium can only send one champion.

 

And theologically your theory has some bases: 

 

“Everything has its opposite, Shallan. The Almighty is a force of good. To balance his goodness, the cosmere needed the Voidbringers as his opposite.”

 

But if this is entirely true, then the surgebinders (not being of Honor) wouldn't lead to Odium having more power. Though the Almighty said spren imitated what he did with the Heralds, so who knows, it might count.

 

In Child of Tanavast the Stormfather said:

 

 

THE OOATHPACT WAS SHATTERED.

 

Which makes me think that the Oathpact was a Shard (because of 'shattered'), though I can't back it up with much. Only that we know 'three of the sixteen ruled' and since Odium came much latter, it's possible that there was one more Shard other than Honor and Cultivation. I'm going to stop here and not argue about this, perhaps there are WoB proving it wrong, but the quote is still relevant to the topic.

 

 

THE OOATHPACT IS BROKEN, CHILD OF HONOR.

 

Notice the present time here? It could be a recent event. Thus Odium is no longer bound by the same rules that applied in previous Desolations. Perhaps that's why spren decide to bond with mankind again, but Darkness is unaware of what happened.

 

edit: spelling

Edited February 20, 2014 by Aleksiel

[AerionBFII]

9 OUT OF TEN DEAD.... I new the Desolations were bad but i never new how bad, it jogged my memory when i reread..

I always thought of the Oathpact as a deal the Heralds made with Honor to gain their power in the first place and ending the desolation's is what they had to do.

 

Obviously just leaving behind one wasn't enough to stop them. (Personally i cant wait for Taln to confront the other Heralds)

 

Going back to Darkness i for sure;

thought he was evil but on a reread he seems.....more like a vigilante the way he coldly executes no question no hesitation but he doesn't get mad he is like cold hard justice. The lack of emotion makes him even creepier the (by far one of my new faves)

[StormLight_Luc]

Maybe "fair" is not the right word here... "Limited" shouldn't be better in this case?

Maybe this has to do with what Tanavast told Dalinar, referencing a set of rules:

"He is bound by some rules. All of us are."

Moogle, is there any WoB reffering to the rules that the holders of greater shards have to follow?

And who enforces those rules?

Any idea?

Edited February 21, 2014 by StormLight_Luc

[Moogle]

Moogle, is there any WoB reffering to the rules that the holders of greater shards have to follow?

And who enforces those rules?

Any idea?

 

No WoBs as far as I know.

 

I imagine the rules that they have to follow are basically like laws of physics. There's nobody 'enforcing' the rules, they're just... bound by them. Preservation couldn't use his power to destroy anything, for example. He had to preserve things.

 

I would further guess that the Oathpact sworn by the Heralds also binds Odium to some rules set up by Honor. Preservation put Ruin into stasis, and Honor could bind Odium to an oath, probably. Honor might have listed a bunch of rules for how they were going to fight, and in exchange, Cultivation couldn't interfere maybe?

Edited February 21, 2014 by Moogle

[Arondell]

No WoBs as far as I know.

 

I imagine the rules that they have to follow are basically like laws of physics. There's nobody 'enforcing' the rules, they're just... bound by them. Preservation couldn't use his power to destroy anything, for example. He had to preserve things.

 

 

 

There are a couple other things we could infer from the conflict between Preservation and Ruin.  It appears that shardholders cannot directly read a persons thoughts.  It also appears that a shardholder cannot directly control someone without some kind of external modification.  e.g. A hemalurgic spike.

 

Also the holder of preservation wasn't inherently prevented from destroying.  Vin proved that conclusively.  It is just after enough time passes the shard imprints its intent on the holder making them psychologically incapable of certain things.

[Moogle]

Also the holder of preservation wasn't inherently prevented from destroying.  Vin proved that conclusively.  It is just after enough time passes the shard imprints its intent on the holder making them psychologically incapable of certain things.

 

Rashek was incapable of using the Well to kill Kwaan. I'm not so sure there aren't some inherent limitations. I agree that yes, part of it is having your identity overwritten, but I think there's something deeper there. Vin wasn't using the power to destroy. She was just forcing herself to go close to Ruin. I think that Vin couldn't have used Preservation to delete Marsh, for example, regardless of whether or not her personality was being overwhelmed.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WeiryWriter
umm Spoilers much?

[StormLight_Luc]

Ummm, well I wouldn't be so sure about the laws of phsyics as Sylphrenia was quite dismissive of them.

Err... they can't affect some elements in nature?

Dunno, maybe the only limitations they really have to deal with are within the nature of their Shard. As you quite rightly said Preservation couldn't destroy only preserve...

But then what would be Odium's limitation? What is the limitation of Hate?

And how does the fact that the Oathpact was shattered impact on what Odium can and can't do? Why would he submit to something like that when he had already killed Tanavast?

Furthermore Tanavast said that they could force Odium in picking a champion. How can they force a, for the lack of another therm, god to do something like that? And how can that help them?

Personaly I think that there are unknown rules and the someone - still unknown- enforces them, but at the same time can't opose directly those that hold the major Shards.

damnation, I hate not knowing!

[Arondell]

Rashek was incapable of using the Well to kill Kwaan. I'm not so sure there aren't some inherent limitations. I agree that yes, part of it is having your identity overwritten, but I think there's something deeper there. Vin wasn't using the power to destroy. She was just forcing herself to go close to Ruin. I think that Vin couldn't have used Preservation to delete Marsh, for example, regardless of whether or not her personality was being overwhelmed.

 

She initiated a direct conflict between the power of Preservation and Ruin for the purpose of killing Rayse.

 

"Preservation could never destroy you! she thought, almost screaming it against the agony.  He could only protect."

 

Quite obviously Vin was not under the same restriction.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WeiryWriter
spoilers

[CodeMnke]

 

...

It also appears that a shardholder cannot directly control someone without some kind of external modification.  e.g. A hemalurgic spike.

 

Interesting point here. It might relate to the parshedi and voidbringers as well. Odium can control them by either they bond corrupted spren (or voidspren), or he corrupts thier spren after the bonding

 

[Moogle]

Furthermore Tanavast said that they could force Odium in picking a champion. How can they force a, for the lack of another therm, god to do something like that? And how can that help them?

Personaly I think that there are unknown rules and the someone - still unknown- enforces them, but at the same time can't opose directly those that hold the major Shards.

 

Yes. The thing that is enforcing it is Honor. Honor bound Odium into the Oathpact, and Taln is still a part of that. Part of the Oathpact must have included rules for choosing champions.

 

 

She initiated a direct conflict between the power of Preservation and Ruin for the purpose of killing Rayse.

 

"Preservation could never destroy you! she thought, almost screaming it against the agony.  He could only protect."

 

Quite obviously Vin was not under the same restriction.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of that quote. Vin was not using her power to destroy. Vin was forcing herself close to Ruin. Leras never could have done that, because it would have let to destruction and his Intent had overriden his personality at that point. Vin was not overwhelmed to the point where she could not consider ruining something, but I believe the power of Preservation has other limits.

 

These limits, I think, include an inability to kill somebody anybody directly with the power, for example, because Rashek at the Well had that limit despite Rashek not having his personality be overriden. I don't think Vin could have looked at say... Marsh, and ripped him apart with the power of her Shard. That's Ruin's power, not hers.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WeiryWriter
hiding all the spoilers!

[Arondell]

 

These limits, I think, include an inability to kill somebody anybody directly with the power, for example, because the Well had that limit despite Rashek not having his personality be overriden. I don't think she could have looked at say... Marsh, and ripped him apart with the power of her Shard. That's Ruin's power, not hers.

 

At the moment that seems entirely speculative.  At the very least I don't see any obvious evidence that supports it.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WeiryWriter
sigh... spoilers

[Moogle]

At the moment that seems entirely speculative.  At the very least I don't see any obvious evidence that supports it.

 

Besides the Well being a small portion of Preservation and the fact that it couldn't be used to kill? I think it seems like very strong evidence. Here's the WoB:

 

VEGASDEV (17 OCTOBER)

I'm assuming you meant Alendi hunted him down because he turned against Alendi. Or did Kwaan also turn against Rashek?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, I meant that he turned against Rashek. Remember, the members of the First Generation were offered immortality in exchange for their Hemalurgy. They had to make this choice for all of the world's Feruchemists. Because his uncle had been the one who gave Rashek the chance to become the Lord Ruler in the first place, Rashek blessed him and included him in the decision. (Speaking directly into his mind along with the others during Rashek's moment of ascension.)

Kwaan was the only one who turned down this offer, calling it a betrayal of who they were as a people. Rashek could have just made him one anyway, but in a moment of anger, he tried to destroy Kwaan—which he couldn't do, not with Preservation's power. As the other Feruchemists changed, Kwaan remained the same. Rashek eventually hunted him down and killed him.

Edited February 21, 2014 by WeiryWriter
Spoilers... again

[Aleksiel]

Uh, thanks for all the Mistborn spoilers... 

[Crysanja]

Odiums forces could be much smaller.

 

maybe a desolation is 30-50 years long?

highstorms increaseing alot?

 

stronger and longer highstorms alone could kill lots of ppl.

 

now if there are Odium-invasions/incursions too, over a long timeframe, just preventing efficient farming/repairs, could mean lots of dead ppl.

 

 

i dont think Odiums forces are an even matched force, they will be much fewer, but they dont need food or sustain for a long time. 

they just spawn and attack.

 

 

at the moment the Alethi have very few forces to defend theire homeland,

most of the military and leadership is at the shattered plains.

thouse "undefended" princedoms are an easy pray for Odium.

easy to kill lots and lots of ppl.

 

with all thouse Kings and leaders asessinated from Sezth, thouse nobles will have their armies close too.

again lots and lots of undefended ppl.

 

 

maybe this is more a war between spren, or to protect the spren in shardsmere.

to contain evil spren, preventing them to "invade" the mortal realm and raise Monsters.

[AerionBFII]

I don't think he has to be fair.

I think he just is "bound" by some rules even he couldn't get out of. (Like the selecting of a champion, when Honor and Dalinar talk)

There is no doubt in my mind if he could escape them he would be even worse than the scum who cheats at Monopoly. 

[WeiryWriter]

Okay people, Mistborn spoilers need to be in spoiler tags, I think I got them all but let me know if I missed any.  This is a Stormlight sub-forum, therefore anything spoilery for non-Stormlight things should be in spoiler tags.  It is kind of rude and as you can see it spoils the books for people like Aleksiel.

 

There are a couple other things we could infer from the conflict between Preservation and Ruin.  It appears that shardholders cannot directly read a persons thoughts.

 

Actually:

 

Preservation is able to read minds but cannot speak into them.  Preservation and Ruin are kind of a matched set in this regard, as Ruin could speak into minds but not read them.

[Arondell]

 

 

Actually:

 

Preservation is able to read minds but cannot speak into them.  Preservation and Ruin are kind of a matched set in this regard, as Ruin could speak into minds but not read them.

 

 

Actually it is pretty clear that the only time Ruin can speak directly into someones mind is when they are spiked.  Notice the only time Ruin can speak into Vin's mind is when she is wearing that earring she got from her mother.  When Spook pulled out the splinter giving him pewter burning Ruin was cut off from speaking directly too him as well. Ruin could not speak into Penrod's mind until he had pierced his heart with a hemalurgic spike.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Arondell

[WeiryWriter]

Actually it is pretty clear that the only time Ruin can speak directly into someones mind is when they are spiked.  Notice the only time Ruin can speak into Vin's mind is when she is wearing that earring she got from her mother.  When Spook pulled out the splinter giving him pewter burning Ruin was cut off from speaking directly too him as well. Ruin could not speak into Penrod's mind until he had pierced his heart with a hemalurgic spike.

 

Hmm... I might have misremembered things...  Here is a quote though:

 

 

I wanted Ruin and Preservation to be complimentary opposites, like many things in the Mistborn world. Allomancy, for example, has Pushes and Pulls were are less "negate one another" opposites, but instead two sides to the same proverbial coin.

 

Ruin is invasive. The power is more "Yell" than "Listen." The philosopher would probably have some interesting things to say about the masculine symbolism of Hemalurgy and its spikes.

 

Ruin can insert thoughts. That power, however, can't HEAR the reactions. It's about invasion.

 

Preservation, however, is the opposite. Preservation listens, Preservation protects. (Perhaps to a fault—if there were no Ruin, there would be no change to the world, and life could not exist.) Because of this, Preservation can hear what is inside people's minds. It cannot, however, INSERT thoughts. (This is important to the plot of Hero of Ages.)

 

Harmony is both, the two complimentary opposites combined. And so, he inserts thoughts with Ruin and still uses Hemalurgy. He can also listen.

 

(source)

 

I swear that there is another one floating around that specifically says Preservation only read minds and Ruin can only "write" in minds

[Arondell]

I swear that there is another one floating around that specifically says Preservation only read minds and Ruin can only "write" in minds

 

Actually I find that rather interesting.  It seems very clear in the book that the only time in that Ruin can speak directly to individuals is when a hemalurgic spike of some sort is involved.  Ruin didn't start speaking to Spook until he got that blade splinter in Spook's shoulder and when it was yanked out Ruin was apparently cut off like a switch had been turned. (Page 525 in Hero of Ages)

 

Maybe someone can ask for clarification in the future.