Theory: Odium Has To Be Fair

[Cromptj he/him]

Perhaps the Oathpact involved Honor giving some of his power to Odium. Odium took the power because it would let him break the stalemate but Honor's intent corrupted him slightly forcing Odium to obey certain rules associated with the Oathpact. The Oathpact was enforced by the Heralds who were bond to some of Honor's power which Odium got. When they broke their oaths, Honor's influence on Odium decreased and over 5000 years Odium marshalled enough power to overcome the remnants of Hoor's power and cause a final desolation.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Actually I find that rather interesting.  It seems very clear in the book that the only time in that Ruin can speak directly to individuals is when a hemalurgic spike of some sort is involved.  Ruin didn't start speaking to Spook until he got that blade splinter in Spook's shoulder and when it was yanked out Ruin was apparently cut off like a switch had been turned. (Page 525 in Hero of Ages)

 

Maybe someone can ask for clarification in the future.

 

Well Ruin can "influence" certain people even if they don't have spikes, whether that transfers into being able to speak to them, I don't know.  If a person is mentally unhinged, such as Zane or Vin's mother, Ruin can influence them as he did with these two.  Ruin influenced Zane to spike himself and influenced Vin's mother into killing Vin's sister and spiking Vin.

[Cayden]

It has merits but I dont think this is entirely the case. The pact between Honor and Odium (and possibly Cultivation) was shattered when Honor's champions broke their word. I think this enabled Odium to go after Honor directly and destroy him. One on one Odium was stronger because he had not invested his power to create anything, he also has experience in killing and shattering shards.

 

Darkness' mission though that is an interesting thing, but it all ties down to a few key points. The Parshendi(and Parshmen) and the Knights Radiant, I really dont think that Odium would want Surgebinders around as a whole. I think he wanted them gone, and managed to persuade the Parshmen and the Knights Radiants to abandon their spren, I suspect that he's managed to corrupt the Heralds somehow, probably due to their own self hatred over what they have done.

 

I dont think Odium needs a spike to twist you like Ruin did, I think he needs Hatred to influence you. My reasons for this are fairly simple, whenever Dalinar is starting to feel the thrill and especially at times where he is acting most honourable and self sacrificing, he starts hearing a voice. Likely a remnant of Honor, sometimes he hears the ideals. To me that means its perfectly plausible for Odium to be able to influence people, and that he has altered the thrill and has set things in motion to limit the amount of surgebinders, wipe them out as a whole, make them so feared and hated that no one will want to bring them back.

 

Personally I think that the everstorm has been forced earlier than Odium had planned, I think something Galivar did sparked off a large number of surgebinders and basically turned on Honor's last will and testimony in his highstorm visions and death visions. Makes me wonder if those Blackstones are somehow linked to the Oathpact, they make me wonder just how alike they are to the Oathstone of Szeths, especially when its highly likely that the Stone Shamans were founded by a Herald or two.

 

went off on a tangent there but overall I dont think Odium is bound by the same rules, I just think he was waiting for certain conditions, that he was waiting for the Alethi to attempt to conquer and enslave the rest of the world and when they were at their weakest to strike. Look at Sadeas' and several other Alethi lighteyes idea's we've seen and you know that they want conquest.

 

Add that in with what we've seen in the Nohadon vision, we know that Odium often waits for a catastrophic war, whether he manipulated it to start or not before he strikes.

 

If this is the case, then I suspect that when Galivar started hearing Honor and quite possibly got his spren or got close to it he decided to prod the Parshendi into starting a war knowing that the Alethi would try to wipe them out, add in a surgebinder or two and you have motives for them to try and relearn their lost and dangerous forms, those forms which open them to corruption.

[Cromptj he/him]

Odium would have had to invest to create Voidbringers and the Unmade. I would guess that their levels of investiture into Roshar were roughly equal pre Honor splintering because if humans on Roshar were created by a shard, it was almost certainly Cultivation.

Otherwise, the rest of your post seems pretty plausible.

[Moogle]

It has merits but I dont think this is entirely the case. The pact between Honor and Odium (and possibly Cultivation) was shattered when Honor's champions broke their word. I think this enabled Odium to go after Honor directly and destroy him. One on one Odium was stronger because he had not invested his power to create anything, he also has experience in killing and shattering shards.

 

The Oathpact is still functioning, thanks to Taln. The Heralds abandoning their post did not cause Honor to be vulnerable. As well, Odium has Invested himself on Roshar (he had to, to create the Voidbringers), so I imagine the Oathpact stipulated he had to.

 

Wetlander: Was Odium able to splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

 

A: Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related…but mostly tangentially.  If I was pinned down on that, I would say no. 

 

Wetlander: Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because e of Taln continued participation.

 

A: Yes, indeed.

(source)

 

I think he wanted them gone, and managed to persuade the Parshmen and the Knights Radiants to abandon their spren

I dont think Odium needs a spike to twist you like Ruin did, I think he needs Hatred to influence you...To me that means its perfectly plausible for Odium to be able to influence people, and that he has altered the thrill and has set things in motion to limit the amount of surgebinders, wipe them out as a whole, make them so feared and hated that no one will want to bring them back.

 

Kaladin does not feel the Thrill. How would Odium, if he is unable to make a Radiant-in-training feel the Thrill, be able to influence the Radiants to abandon their spren? I would argue it makes a lot more sense for the Radiants to realize that their spren bond was bringing great sorrow to Roshar and willingly sacrificed themselves (in line with them being honorable).

 

Add that in with what we've seen in the Nohadon vision, we know that Odium often waits for a catastrophic war, whether he manipulated it to start or not before he strikes.

 

Can you provide one example of this besides the Nohadon vision? I don't think 'often' is a word we can use in this situation. Nohadon also founded the Knights Radiant, which would have put an end to that particular tactic. (There are theories that the Radiants were being used in a war against men in the Feverstone Keep vision which is why I say probably.)

Edited February 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Cayden]

 

The Oathpact is still functioning, thanks to Taln. The Heralds abandoning their post did not cause Honor to be vulnerable. As well, Odium has Invested himself on Roshar (he had to, to create the Voidbringers), so I imagine the Oathpact stipulated he had to. 

 

Interesting I may well be totally off then, but the way he worded it does not state that the Oathpact is in the same form as it was before so it remains to be seen, thanks for the WoB quote though always good to see more.

 

 

Kaladin does not feel the Thrill. How would Odium, if he is unable to make a Radiant-in-training feel the Thrill, be able to influence the Radiants to abandon their spren? I would argue it makes a lot more sense for the Radiants to realize that their spren bond was bringing great sorrow to Roshar and willingly sacrificed themselves (in line with them being honorable).

Quote

I shouldnt have split the paragraph where I did, in my head I put the previous line about the Heralds self hatred opening them to corruption. Also Radiants whom are being forced to kill humans might feel quite a great deal of loathing and self hatred as well. Look at how Dalinar gets, he feels sick at times. I think the Radiants shattering had many aspects, some parts of it being ill use, other parts of it being because of the Heralds. But I still think their is some Odium based twisting going on.

 

 

Can you provide one example of this besides the Nohadon vision? I don't think 'often' is a word we can use in this situation. Nohadon also founded the Knights Radiant, which would have put an end to that particular tactic. (There are theories that the Radiants were being used in a war against men in the Feverstone Keep vision which is why I say probably.)

 

I was under the impression that the Radiants formed quite a while after Nohadon, it wasnt really clear in any way shape or form except that the Radiants were founded based on the Codes and partly based on Nohadon's Way of Kings. But me guessing that he often did that is as valid and likely as anything, but I dont know if it is implicitly stated that he did this no. Though i'd love to see the quote stating that Nohadon founded the KR, that is something that ive wanted to know about because who founded it is quite a big deal, especially if Dalinar is following in Nohadon's footsteps.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Cayden

[Pinpoint he/him]

Along the lines of this fairness topic....

 

Surgebinding / Voidbinding

 

Ten Heralds / Ten Fools

 

Knights radiant / thunder clasts (or maybe the Parshendi in a form that gives Odium control)

Edited February 23, 2014 by Pinpoint

[shinintendo]

I was reading the excerpts of WoR and came about 

 

 

You will need to refound them. This is yourtask. Unite them. Create a fortress that can weather the storm

I think that's another thing about the fairness. he need fortress and champion before he can challenge Odium, else why build it? they can do fine without a fortress(if the one in the purelake got destroyed).

there is a certain rules/guidelines they must follow in this war I think you're into something.

[Swimmingly he/him]

I was reading the excerpts of WoR and came about 

I think that's another thing about the fairness. he need fortress and champion before he can challenge Odium, else why build it? they can do fine without a fortress(if the one in the purelake got destroyed).

there is a certain rules/guidelines they must follow in this war I think you're into something.

By fortress, he might have been speaking metaphorically... in fact I am 90% certain he was.

[shinintendo]

By fortress, he might have been speaking metaphorically... in fact I am 90% certain he was.

slightly before this quote they were outside a fortress I believe it was the KR HQ located in the Purelake, it's described as Majestic and soulcasted.I can be sure it was not enemy fortress.

so I take the fortress reference afterwards literally, to rebuild it.

[Swimmingly he/him]

slightly before this quote they were outside a fortress I believe it was the KR HQ located in the Purelake, it's described as Majestic and soulcasted.I can be sure it was not enemy fortress.

so I take the fortress reference afterwards literally, to rebuild it.

Directly before that quote, he talked about gathering Surgebinders and warriors. The fortress is a metaphorical one against the onslaught of the Voidbringers, and while I am sure that a physical one or five will pop up as a consequence of the war, the one referenced here is a metaphor. A fortress is only as good as it's army, after all, and the rebuilding of a specific fortress, especially when it is barely implied to be directly connected, is far too specific for the prophetic vision of a dead god.